Vocal Comping with Ken Lewis

[Ken Lewis]

Originally Posted by Track Layer

Just wanted to pop in this thread and say thanks to Ken for posting this gem on his blog and thanks to the OP for reposting it. I got a chance to really try this last night on a raw talent im producing and it worked wonders. He has a really thick muddy voice to begin with and when we comped the vocals it really took the song to the next level. Not only did it make him sound more professional but because of his voice and delivery, the extra care and editing actually opened up the mix so his vocals sat better.
............ for one thing, most people dont know about vocal comping (been bedroom engineering for 10 years and never heard of vocal comping till reading Ken's article), another thing, most people dont know how to really do it good and last most people are too lazy. If you want to compete with the people who do this for a living you have to be able to produce a sound that speaks for itself.

Vocal comping is now in my tool box and I will be using this as I have seen the difference it can make in taking your music to the next level.

Well, thank you for that. And thanks to VoiceGenuis who, how the hell did you find that blog, i just re-read it and its from 2005. you must have been doing some serious digging. thanks for reposting it, i'm glad it got resurrected and a whole bunch of new people could benefit from it. I remember early on in my career learning what vocal comping was and the power that the technique could have on a finished record. One of my first experiences with it was when i was working on a Foreigner album, and the producer, Mike Stone, was recording and comping Lou Graham's vocals, and Lou is an AMAZING singer. But hearing the difference between listening down to one great take, and listening down to the comp'd sum of 8 great takes comp'd down to one single vocal comp was just an amazing experience to watch and learn.

And what have i been doing all week? Recording and comp'ing vocals for a band i'm producing called 13 Yards to Victory. 2 excellent singers in the band but having the ability and time to record multiple takes, have them try different approaches, different deliveries, ideas, etc, then be able to sort thru and find the best moments, the vocals are coming out great. Yeah vocal comping is usually boring as hell, but the rest of my job is pretty darn fun, so if i gotta slog thru some boring moments to make sure that the record comes out great, then its just part of the job.

[Ken Lewis]

Originally Posted by Ray Sr.

Just want to let the pros know that their info is appreciated. It's helped me take my game to the next level. Be seeing ya'll soon. Quote me on that.

thats great to hear Ray. see you at the top!

[voicegenius]

Originally Posted by Ken Lewis

Well, thank you for that. And thanks to VoiceGenuis who, how the hell did you find that blog, i just re-read it and its from 2005. you must have been doing some serious digging. thanks for reposting it, i'm glad it got resurrected and a whole bunch of new people could benefit from it. I remember early on in my career learning what vocal comping was and the power that the technique could have on a finished record. One of my first experiences with it was when i was working on a Foreigner album, and the producer, Mike Stone, was recording and comping Lou Graham's vocals, and Lou is an AMAZING singer. But hearing the difference between listening down to one great take, and listening down to the comp'd sum of 8 great takes comp'd down to one single vocal comp was just an amazing experience to watch and learn.

And what have i been doing all week? Recording and comp'ing vocals for a band i'm producing called 13 Yards to Victory. 2 excellent singers in the band but having the ability and time to record multiple takes, have them try different approaches, different deliveries, ideas, etc, then be able to sort thru and find the best moments, the vocals are coming out great. Yeah vocal comping is usually boring as hell, but the rest of my job is pretty darn fun, so if i gotta slog thru some boring moments to make sure that the record comes out great, then its just part of the job.

Well, this is what happens when you search for buried treasure!

Wish there were more threads like this one... Of course without all the "smartments"... Guess I'll keep digging!

[Joemamma]

Originally Posted by TonyBelmont

Here's a new rule for the forum... If you "challenge" Ken Lewis or any other multi-platinum engineer to anything on this forum, you get banned.

He's a professional who doesn't need to be spending his time arguing with a-holes on the internet who just joined GS and think they know everything.

That's kinda sad though!
Sorry, but if there is no space on this forum to debate different views, techniques, and approaches to working with music, then what is this?

I don't think ISayItLikeItIs was trying to say he knows everything. How could he be with statements like: "Do you" and "Do what you gotta do". I simply think he was trying to explain how he does things, which is inspiring too because he's talking about an alternative to how you can work with music, other than the ultra clean, almost robotic (some times) vocal sound that's being put out today.

I agree with a lot of the things he's been saying. And there was a lot of truth in what he said!
So ban me too if you want to...

[voicegenius]

Originally Posted by Joemamma

That's kinda sad though!
Sorry, but if there is no space on this forum to debate different views, techniques, and approaches to working with music, then what is this?

I don't think ISayItLikeItIs was trying to say he knows everything. How could he be with statements like: "Do you" and "Do what you gotta do". I simply think he was trying to explain how he does things, which is inspiring too because he's talking about an alternative to how you can work with music, other than the ultra clean, almost robotic (some times) vocal sound that's being put out today.

I agree with a lot of the things he's been saying. And there was a lot of truth in what he said!
So ban me too if you want to...

Uh, oh...

[memphisindie]

Originally Posted by Joemamma

That's kinda sad though!
Sorry, but if there is no space on this forum to debate different views, techniques, and approaches to working with music, then what is this?

I don't think ISayItLikeItIs was trying to say he knows everything. How could he be with statements like: "Do you" and "Do what you gotta do". I simply think he was trying to explain how he does things, which is inspiring too because he's talking about an alternative to how you can work with music, other than the ultra clean, almost robotic (some times) vocal sound that's being put out today.

I agree with a lot of the things he's been saying. And there was a lot of truth in what he said!
So ban me too if you want to...

I think the mod was saying that this thread was not the "debate the pro" thread, it was the "learn from he pro and ask questions " thread.
So, in that light, the posts were inappropriate, not evil, just not the right thread. Now, If we have a "amateurs take down the multi-platinum pro" thread, it will be great.

[Ray Sr.]

All I know is that I'd hate to run off the pros. If that happens then this forum will become just like every other forum.

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by Joemamma

That's kinda sad though!
Sorry, but if there is no space on this forum to debate different views, techniques, and approaches to working with music, then what is this?

I don't think ISayItLikeItIs was trying to say he knows everything. How could he be with statements like: "Do you" and "Do what you gotta do". I simply think he was trying to explain how he does things, which is inspiring too because he's talking about an alternative to how you can work with music, other than the ultra clean, almost robotic (some times) vocal sound that's being put out today.

I agree with a lot of the things he's been saying. And there was a lot of truth in what he said!
So ban me too if you want to...

I'm not going to have a big discussion about this... I'm tired of people ****ing up the forum, and if they need a "time out" for a week to realize that you don't challenge major label engineer's on my forum, then so be it. Too many have already been run away by this sort of behavior.... I won't let it happen anymore. tutt

Originally Posted by memphisindie

I think the mod was saying that this thread was not the "debate the pro" thread, it was the "learn from he pro and ask questions " thread.
So, in that light, the posts were inappropriate, not evil, just not the right thread. Now, If we have a "amateurs take down the multi-platinum pro" thread, it will be great.

Exactly.

[deuc647]

Yeah its true, i remember when BigBassBrian used to post here. Wonder where he is now? Tony, you think you could get him as a feature for a week or a month?

[Ken Lewis]

Originally Posted by Joemamma

That's kinda sad though!
Sorry, but if there is no space on this forum to debate different views, techniques, and approaches to working with music, then what is this?

I don't think ISayItLikeItIs was trying to say he knows everything. How could he be with statements like: "Do you" and "Do what you gotta do". I simply think he was trying to explain how he does things, which is inspiring too because he's talking about an alternative to how you can work with music, other than the ultra clean, almost robotic (some times) vocal sound that's being put out today.

I agree with a lot of the things he's been saying. And there was a lot of truth in what he said!
So ban me too if you want to...

Joemamma,

I think its kind of like this. Yes, i am a pro, however, i wholeheartedly attempt to treat people with respect on these boards, and it would be nice to be treated with respect back. I'm human and i dont always do that 100% of the time, but i try. I dont put myself up on a pedestal, i post just like everyone else here. I didnt start this thread, Voicegenius did. He found a blog i wrote 4 YEARS AGO thats still on my website and he got enough out of it that he wanted to share with others. I've been posting in this thread because, well, i wrote the original blog, stands to reason. If you didnt take the time to actually read the blog posting, you shouldnt be posting on this thread, all you are adding is white noise. If you did read it, i hope you got something out of it, a whole lot of other people did.

When guys like "ISayitLikeItIS" come along and voice their views, opinions, etc.... cool. I have no problem with that, or anyone voicing their opinion. When they begin turning into D-bags just for the sake of doing it, behind the anonimity of the internet, then i think Tony is 100% right, get them the F out of here.

I post on these boards because i actually get alot of knowledge out of them myself so i'm happy to give knowledge back. If someone wants to come here and be a D-bag, man, go over to Future Producers forums and knock yourself out. I'd like to think that everyone here either has the desire to become professional, or at least the desire to get better at what they do if for nothing else than their own personal satisfaction.

I would just like to point out one last thing. Guys come onto these boards form time to time like ISAYITLIKEITIS and talk alot of ish. then he just kept talking and talking and talking and talking long after it was time for him to shut up. He would get one hell of alot more respect for his opinion if he would actually back it up with anything tangible. This is not a "I challenge you", this is a "hey this is my opinion, this is what i was talking about, now listen to what i mean so you can hear what i'm talking about". Nothing about that has to be inflamatory or confrontational. Quite the opposite. thats where you really can learn something. Show me what you did, tell me how you did it. Isnt that exactly what my blog post did?

There are guys who come on these boards anonymously and talk as if they are gods gift to engineering, but offer absolutely zero credibility to back that up. that gets really old really fast. Most of the pro's here arent hiding. you know who they are, and their resume and discography backs up what they are saying. I respect anyone's right to an opinion. i respect it 100 times more if they put an ounce of true weight behind it. You dont have to be a pro to be credible, but if you are going to forcefully argue a point here, back that ish up with something real. Otherwise its just noise noise noise. Know what i mean?

And i'll just say this much. i would have KILLED to have a forum like this when i was in high school, college, or starting out as an intern, assistant, and young engineer. the sheer volume of valuable information on these boards is astounding. Sifting thru all of the white noise and putting up with all of the BS gets really tiring. Just something for you all to think about. This site is like free college.

-Ken Lewis

[bigstig]

Originally Posted by Ken Lewis

PS. if ya'll dont know who ryan west is, start googling. One of the best.

i did and came across a remix interview with the absolute best quote ever!
I think he really hit the nail on the head. Thanks Ken and Ryan for taking the time to share the craft.


Remix: What would you like to see brought back from hip-hop’s past, if anything?
RW: Songwriting! Not to say that there aren't some downright talented songwriters making hip-hop records, but the vast majority of commercially available music lacks any sense of the craft. There are a ton of really well crafted, thought provoking, personal and political, socially valuable rap songs from the past 25 to 30 years, but I don't hear many new ones these days. A few, but not many. If your song consists of an 8 bar beat, two verses that say nothing more than how rich you are and how many cars you have, and hook that has two words, one of them being profane and profoundly ignorant, you don't get to call yourself a songwriter. That's just my opinion, of course, but I think that's one of the reasons why record sales are in the toilet. Creativity is subjective, but if the only message in your song is an anatomical reference or self congratulatory rant, you should hang it up. If we can't bring songwriting back, I'd settle for NWA. In my living room. Yeah, that's what I want!

[Ryan West]

Lol...wow you found some old stuff. I still believe that is true.

Originally Posted by bigstig

i did and came across a remix interview with the absolute best quote ever!
I think he really hit the nail on the head. Thanks Ken and Ryan for taking the time to share the craft.


Remix: What would you like to see brought back from hip-hop’s past, if anything?
RW: Songwriting! Not to say that there aren't some downright talented songwriters making hip-hop records, but the vast majority of commercially available music lacks any sense of the craft. There are a ton of really well crafted, thought provoking, personal and political, socially valuable rap songs from the past 25 to 30 years, but I don't hear many new ones these days. A few, but not many. If your song consists of an 8 bar beat, two verses that say nothing more than how rich you are and how many cars you have, and hook that has two words, one of them being profane and profoundly ignorant, you don't get to call yourself a songwriter. That's just my opinion, of course, but I think that's one of the reasons why record sales are in the toilet. Creativity is subjective, but if the only message in your song is an anatomical reference or self congratulatory rant, you should hang it up. If we can't bring songwriting back, I'd settle for NWA. In my living room. Yeah, that's what I want!

[Solar]

Originally Posted by Ken Lewis

Joemamma,

I think its kind of like this. Yes, i am a pro, however, i wholeheartedly attempt to treat people with respect on these boards, and it would be nice to be treated with respect back. I'm human and i dont always do that 100% of the time, but i try. I dont put myself up on a pedestal, i post just like everyone else here. I didnt start this thread, Voicegenius did. He found a blog i wrote 4 YEARS AGO thats still on my website and he got enough out of it that he wanted to share with others. I've been posting in this thread because, well, i wrote the original blog, stands to reason. If you didnt take the time to actually read the blog posting, you shouldnt be posting on this thread, all you are adding is white noise. If you did read it, i hope you got something out of it, a whole lot of other people did.

When guys like "ISayitLikeItIS" come along and voice their views, opinions, etc.... cool. I have no problem with that, or anyone voicing their opinion. When they begin turning into D-bags just for the sake of doing it, behind the anonimity of the internet, then i think Tony is 100% right, get them the F out of here.

I post on these boards because i actually get alot of knowledge out of them myself so i'm happy to give knowledge back. If someone wants to come here and be a D-bag, man, go over to Future Producers forums and knock yourself out. I'd like to think that everyone here either has the desire to become professional, or at least the desire to get better at what they do if for nothing else than their own personal satisfaction.

I would just like to point out one last thing. Guys come onto these boards form time to time like ISAYITLIKEITIS and talk alot of ish. then he just kept talking and talking and talking and talking long after it was time for him to shut up. He would get one hell of alot more respect for his opinion if he would actually back it up with anything tangible. This is not a "I challenge you", this is a "hey this is my opinion, this is what i was talking about, now listen to what i mean so you can hear what i'm talking about". Nothing about that has to be inflamatory or confrontational. Quite the opposite. thats where you really can learn something. Show me what you did, tell me how you did it. Isnt that exactly what my blog post did?

There are guys who come on these boards anonymously and talk as if they are gods gift to engineering, but offer absolutely zero credibility to back that up. that gets really old really fast. Most of the pro's here arent hiding. you know who they are, and their resume and discography backs up what they are saying. I respect anyone's right to an opinion. i respect it 100 times more if they put an ounce of true weight behind it. You dont have to be a pro to be credible, but if you are going to forcefully argue a point here, back that ish up with something real. Otherwise its just noise noise noise. Know what i mean?

And i'll just say this much. i would have KILLED to have a forum like this when i was in high school, college, or starting out as an intern, assistant, and young engineer. the sheer volume of valuable information on these boards is astounding. Sifting thru all of the white noise and putting up with all of the BS gets really tiring. Just something for you all to think about. This site is like free college.

-Ken Lewis

Mr Lewis!

Can not agree more with you and a big point you've mentioned is, we are lucky to have this forum and GREAT people like you in this board sharing and taking the time to share their inputs and knowledge. I read every of your posts and i can say that they are a must have educational sources.

Thank you very much for your contribution and generosity

Cheeeeeeeeers!

[#23]

Thank You Mr Lewis And Mr West for you insight .This is a great forum and i have lots of reading to do.

[D. Brasco]

Originally Posted by bigstig

Remix: What would you like to see brought back from hip-hop’s past, if anything?
RW: Songwriting! Not to say that there aren't some downright talented songwriters making hip-hop records, but the vast majority of commercially available music lacks any sense of the craft. There are a ton of really well crafted, thought provoking, personal and political, socially valuable rap songs from the past 25 to 30 years, but I don't hear many new ones these days. A few, but not many. If your song consists of an 8 bar beat, two verses that say nothing more than how rich you are and how many cars you have, and hook that has two words, one of them being profane and profoundly ignorant, you don't get to call yourself a songwriter. That's just my opinion, of course, but I think that's one of the reasons why record sales are in the toilet. Creativity is subjective, but if the only message in your song is an anatomical reference or self congratulatory rant, you should hang it up. If we can't bring songwriting back, I'd settle for NWA. In my living room. Yeah, that's what I want!

I agree 100%!! And thats why I still have the older "classic" albums still in rotation in my car instead of buying the latest over produced, under thought release of the last few years. I find very little inspiration from most of the current crop.

BUT... back to topic I have read the said blog and found it to be a great insight into how the top tier handle their biz.

[Ryan West]

Absolutely. It's nice to have a forum full of knowledgeable people to chat with about this art that we love so much. Speaking as a "pro" I can tell you that GS is full of smart people who are every bit as valuable a resource as we may be for them. I'm looking forward to helping as much as I can... and learning from you all as well.

Originally Posted by #23

Thank You Mr Lewis And Mr West for you insight .This is a great forum and i have lots of reading to do.

[Joemamma]

Originally Posted by Ken Lewis

You dont have to be a pro to be credible, but if you are going to forcefully argue a point here, back that ish up with something real. Otherwise its just noise noise noise. Know what i mean?

Yeah, and I'd like to hear ISayLikeItIs's stuff too..

I'll let you check out a song I did though.. Check out the song "Get On With It" on my producer page.
This song was recorded and mixed to and from tape. Everything was tracked together live. Horns and vocals were overdubbed though. We tracked everything in a few takes and a few punch ins.
I wrote and composed the song too, but that's irrelevant, we're just talking engineering..

Now, this is no hit. In fact, I haven't had anything on the radio yet..
The performance (musically and vocally) is not perfect. But it has soul, a vibe, and something real about it, because it was played and performed live the way you hear it. Plus it was mixed and mastered over two days, with no recalls cause it was tape, etc.

I like to take jobs where I don't need to comp too much either. It's more fun, plus the music often turns out more real IMO. So that's win-win for me!

[jikky]

Great thread. I've been comping a while. It's so easy to do in Cubase. Set the locators, turn on lanes, and put it in stacked mode. I record tons of takes. It also saves time in manually recording takes.

Thanks VG, Ken, Ryan, and everybody else.

[ISayItLikeItIs]

Originally Posted by memphisindie

I think the mod was saying that this thread was not the "debate the pro" thread, it was the "learn from he pro and ask questions " thread.
So, in that light, the posts were inappropriate, not evil, just not the right thread. Now, If we have a "amateurs take down the multi-platinum pro" thread, it will be great.

Okay, well I've been a "pro". So listen and learn! I've lived off music, but don't do it any more..
I'm sorry for "hijacking" the thread. But you people need to understand that there is not one way of doing things. That's why I said: "Do what you gotta do"!
And I know Ken Lewis and other people have their ways of doing things. Respect! Cool! But that does not make it the only and right way to do it!

I'm not trying to "take down the multi-platinum pro"! That's not necessary. But I'd like to be able to debate things with them when I feel that they are being "one-sided" or feel that they think they know it all cause they are "pros"! Everyone can learn something from those types of debates, pros and amateurs!

[Intergroove]

This a great thread. Keep it up.

[Ryan West]

Ok. F**k this. You made your point "Isayitlikeitis." Nobody, as far as I can tell, has EVER said that comping is the only way to do it. You just keep saying the same thing over and over. We know what YOU think. You are not the purveyor of truth, as you say. WTF do you think is happening here? You think we're trying to tell ppl that comping is the only way to acheive a good take. Seriously? You have successfully chased me from this thread.

[noiseflaw]

Originally Posted by ISayItLikeItIs

Okay, well I've been a "pro". So listen and learn!

Is it just me - or is there something in your manner of speech and attitude that comes across as arrogant.

I know who I'm listening to on this thread - and strangely enough it's not you.

Yes ok, you do not like to comp - we hear you, please let it rest now.

[Ray Sr.]

Originally Posted by Ryan West

Ok. F**k this. You made your point "Isayitlikeitis." Nobody, as far as I can tell, has EVER said that comping is the only way to do it. You just keep saying the same thing over and over. We know what YOU think. You are not the purveyor of truth, as you say. WTF do you think is happening here? You think we're trying to tell ppl that comping is the only way to acheive a good take. Seriously? You have successfully chased me from this thread.

Hey Ryan, I hope you don't go man. Seriously, I'm in the trenches right now trying to grind it out. Pros like you help clear the weather when times get tough. I'm more than an engineer & the more I hats I wear the more I need advice from the pros. Though I trust my team (small team), I can't help but stay involved in everything every step of the way. Yeah I know, I spread myself thin.

I'm sure there are folks out there in the same boat who feel the same way I do. Any breaks we can get are Greatly appreciated. People who are as deep into the music biz know it is not for the weak at heart. Good advice is better than money (money comes & goes, good advice is forever).

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by ISayItLikeItIs

I'm not trying to "take down the multi-platinum pro"! That's not necessary. But I'd like to be able to debate things with them when I feel that they are being "one-sided" or feel that they think they know it all cause they are "pros"! Everyone can learn something from those types of debates, pros and amateurs!

This isn't the "debate a pro" forum.

Stop with the crusade or you'll be banned permanently this time. I don't have time for this, step out of line again and YOU, and any record of you ever existing on this forum is gone.

[Ryan West]

Ray,
I come to GS to talk with people like you who are into the craft.
This dude is a thread spoiler. Guys like you and I want to share ideas, talk tech, tell stories and explore our community of music makers. When someone, anyone, turns a valid conversation into a pissing match.. I'm out. Of course, I will be trolling threads looking for ways to help and learn with you guys, but I have no patience for people who can't play well with others. This is serious business for me. It's my life. It's my career. It's my passion. I think I've learned a thing or two over the last 12 years as a professional mixer, producer and engineer...as well as the last 25 years as a musician.
This guy, IsayitOVERandOVERagain, thinks he knows it all. The stuff he says makes it obvious that he thinks he's better than the rest of us. I've seen his type before. I'd bet my last dollar that if he pulled that crap with a professional client, they would kick him to the curb. What makes me laugh at him is that I will wake up tomorrow and prep for my next major label mix, which might be another worldwide hit, and I will be happy to comp a vocal or two if the record will benefit from it. I could care less that he thinks he's a purist or whatever. He's entitled to his opinion... but hijacked the thread because he felt that he was right and everyone else is wrong. This is the definition of arrogance.

Kudos to my very good friend Ken for telling "it-like-it-is-no-matter-what-this-guy-says."

Originally Posted by Ray Sr.

Hey Ryan, I hope you don't go man. Seriously, I'm in the trenches right now trying to grind it out. Pros like you help clear the weather when times get tough. I'm more than an engineer & the more I hats I wear the more I need advice from the pros. Though I trust my team (small team), I can't help but stay involved in everything every step of the way. Yeah I know, I spread myself thin.

I'm sure there are folks out there in the same boat who feel the same way I do. Any breaks we can get are Greatly appreciated. People who are as deep into the music biz know it is not for the weak at heart. Good advice is better than money (money comes & goes, good advice is forever).

[ISayItLikeItIs]

I have to be able to explain myself though, cause this is ridiculous.

I started posting in this thread cause I wanted to share ideas, talk tech, tell stories and explore our community of music makers just like Ryan West said he liked to do. And I'm sure Ken Lewis and most of us on here do. Correct me if I'm wrong.

However, maybe I didn't explain myself correctly in that post. See post #31.

People came at ME. I didn't attack anyone until I was attacked by others.

I tried to explain myself in post #36. Please read that!

Then people like "coyotekells" and "karloff73" still came at me.

And I still tried to underline my point in post #48 and #63.

My other posts were made to underline a great point made by "Franco" in post #58.

Then again "coyotekells" came at me in post #69 (like in #41). And this lead me to having to get a little back at him in post #72.

The rest of it was just a friendly discussion to me and I didn't mean to offend anyone. Still I was banned for some odd reason.

But you know what? I don't care!

I think I left all of you with a lot of things to think about. Also read the posts by "Franco" and "Joemamma".

I'm out!

[Ken Lewis]

Originally Posted by ISayItLikeItIs

I have to be able to explain myself though, cause this is ridiculous.

I started posting in this thread cause I wanted to share ideas, talk tech, tell stories and explore our community of music makers just like Ryan West said he liked to do. And I'm sure Ken Lewis and most of us on here do. Correct me if I'm wrong.

However, maybe I didn't explain myself correctly in that post. See post #31.

People came at ME. I didn't attack anyone until I was attacked by others.

I tried to explain myself in post #36. Please read that!

Then people like "coyotekells" and "karloff73" still came at me.

And I still tried to underline my point in post #48 and #63.

My other posts were made to underline a great point made by "Franco" in post #58.

Then again "coyotekells" came at me in post #69 (like in #41). And this lead me to having to get a little back at him in post #72.

The rest of it was just a friendly discussion to me and I didn't mean to offend anyone. Still I was banned for some odd reason.

But you know what? I don't care!

I think I left all of you with a lot of things to think about. Also read the posts by "Franco" and "Joemamma".

I'm out!

Dude. Please. I didnt start this thread. But i think i speak for the majority of people here when i say we hear you loud and clear. We understood your point the first, second, third, and tenth time that you said the same thing. I acknowledge that there is validity to your point of view. You've stated it. You havent said anything new. Your pissing everyone off. Just stop. please. I'm asking as a personal favor. stop posting on this thread. Just stop. not even a response to this post. nothing. Please. stop.

Moving On. I think its valid at this point to remind anyone who's joining this thread to go back to post #1 and read my blog (a little self serving i know but actually, when i re-read it - its been four years since i wrote it ya know - i think its a really valuable read for anyone who's not a master vocal comper, or vocal recordist/producer for that matter.

anyway, I've spent alot of the last couple weeks producing, recording and comping vocals. I was actually recently hired to only do a couple days of vocal production for a rock band along the lines of Taking Back Sunday, Blink 182, Jimmy Eat World, etc..... Long story short, my vocal production (which relied heavily on comping) landed me the rest of the production and mixing on the 7 song EP, and it looks like they want to hire me to produce a full length album for them from scratch starting at the end of the year. Its a really good band, very talented, and i like them alot, but they needed a producer and i think they found one :-) And the difference between their former recordings and now is very noticeable, but thats not all me, they've worked very hard and written great songs too. Its a team effort, most of the best records are.

Now usually, i comp alot less when i do hip hop. This is a hip hop forum, so definitely worth mentioning. But actually as a producer, I'm currently producing an artist (sick rapper and sick musician) named NOTAR who's one of the most skilled MC's I've ever worked with, and i comp alot of his vocals. Not because he cant rip the mic in one take (he can), but because as a matter of course in vocal production, sometimes I'll have him try a couple different moods, different approaches, or even if its just one approach, often his 5th take will have a much different energy than his first take. There will often be moments from every take that are"the best" moments over the other 4 takes. maybe sometimes, he's so in the zone by his 5th take that thats clearly the one to go with, but if i hadnt given him 5 takes, he wouldnt have gotten there. I'm not sitting back and hitting record, i'm guiding him when he needs it, whats working, whats not, not saying more than i need to but guiding him and giving him support and encouragement when needed, pushing him when needed, etc...

The best way to learn how to vocal produce is to jump in and start doing it. As a tracking engineer OFTEN i was at bare minimum co-producing alot of the vocalists i would record (without getting the production credit of course), but that was GREAT practice for me for when i would produce my own artists. And for engineers recording sessions where there is no vocal producer, its a great way to test your chops. try not to piss off the artist while doing it, everybody is different and has a different expectation. Some artists think they are king of the world and even if you KNOW they are, well, less than the best, sometimes they just dont wanna hear guidance or criticism. Use your judgement.

But for alot of beatmakers who really wanna get those chops to become full on "producers" if you cant effectively produce a vocal, your not yet a producer. One of the most important personal things when producing, engineering, etc... is to exude confidence. If the people around you dont feel confident in you, you'll never get anything done and they will question every decision you make. Its your job as producer to put EVERYONE, especially the artist at ease and in a comfort zone. So if you start producing a vocal, a musician, whoever, even if your not confident, even if your scared $hitless, FAKE IT. ACT. its your job to guide the ship. guide it confidently (not arrogantly). Everyone makes mistakes and makes bad decisions. if you make one, change it and move on confidently. If you have ideas, have the vocalist try them, but make sure to try their ideas as well.

OK, time to go have a life for a few minutes. take care ya'll
-Ken Lewis

[Ryan West]

And that, my friends, is why Ken Lewis is the consummate professional and why he's my "go-to" guy when I come up against a tough scenario.

Originally Posted by Ken Lewis

Dude. Please. I didnt start this thread. But i think i speak for the majority of people here when i say we hear you loud and clear. We understood your point the first, second, third, and tenth time that you said the same thing. I acknowledge that there is validity to your point of view. You've stated it. You havent said anything new. Your pissing everyone off. Just stop. please. I'm asking as a personal favor. stop posting on this thread. Just stop. not even a response to this post. nothing. Please. stop.

Moving On. I think its valid at this point to remind anyone who's joining this thread to go back to post #1 and read my blog (a little self serving i know but actually, when i re-read it - its been four years since i wrote it ya know - i think its a really valuable read for anyone who's not a master vocal comper, or vocal recordist/producer for that matter.

anyway, I've spent alot of the last couple weeks producing, recording and comping vocals. I was actually recently hired to only do a couple days of vocal production for a rock band along the lines of Taking Back Sunday, Blink 182, Jimmy Eat World, etc..... Long story short, my vocal production (which relied heavily on comping) landed me the rest of the production and mixing on the 7 song EP, and it looks like they want to hire me to produce a full length album for them from scratch starting at the end of the year. Its a really good band, very talented, and i like them alot, but they needed a producer and i think they found one :-) And the difference between their former recordings and now is very noticeable, but thats not all me, they've worked very hard and written great songs too. Its a team effort, most of the best records are.

Now usually, i comp alot less when i do hip hop. This is a hip hop forum, so definitely worth mentioning. But actually as a producer, I'm currently producing an artist (sick rapper and sick musician) named NOTAR who's one of the most skilled MC's I've ever worked with, and i comp alot of his vocals. Not because he cant rip the mic in one take (he can), but because as a matter of course in vocal production, sometimes I'll have him try a couple different moods, different approaches, or even if its just one approach, often his 5th take will have a much different energy than his first take. There will often be moments from every take that are"the best" moments over the other 4 takes. maybe sometimes, he's so in the zone by his 5th take that thats clearly the one to go with, but if i hadnt given him 5 takes, he wouldnt have gotten there. I'm not sitting back and hitting record, i'm guiding him when he needs it, whats working, whats not, not saying more than i need to but guiding him and giving him support and encouragement when needed, pushing him when needed, etc...

The best way to learn how to vocal produce is to jump in and start doing it. As a tracking engineer OFTEN i was at bare minimum co-producing alot of the vocalists i would record (without getting the production credit of course), but that was GREAT practice for me for when i would produce my own artists. And for engineers recording sessions where there is no vocal producer, its a great way to test your chops. try not to piss off the artist while doing it, everybody is different and has a different expectation. Some artists think they are king of the world and even if you KNOW they are, well, less than the best, sometimes they just dont wanna hear guidance or criticism. Use your judgement.

But for alot of beatmakers who really wanna get those chops to become full on "producers" if you cant effectively produce a vocal, your not yet a producer. One of the most important personal things when producing, engineering, etc... is to exude confidence. If the people around you dont feel confident in you, you'll never get anything done and they will question every decision you make. Its your job as producer to put EVERYONE, especially the artist at ease and in a comfort zone. So if you start producing a vocal, a musician, whoever, even if your not confident, even if your scared $hitless, FAKE IT. ACT. its your job to guide the ship. guide it confidently (not arrogantly). Everyone makes mistakes and makes bad decisions. if you make one, change it and move on confidently. If you have ideas, have the vocalist try them, but make sure to try their ideas as well.

OK, time to go have a life for a few minutes. take care ya'll
-Ken Lewis

[5StarProject]

Originally Posted by Ken Lewis

But for alot of beatmakers who really wanna get those chops to become full on "producers" if you cant effectively produce a vocal, your not yet a producer. One of the most important personal things when producing, engineering, etc... is to exude confidence. If the people around you dont feel confident in you, you'll never get anything done and they will question every decision you make. Its your job as producer to put EVERYONE, especially the artist at ease and in a comfort zone. So if you start producing a vocal, a musician, whoever, even if your not confident, even if your scared $hitless, FAKE IT. ACT. its your job to guide the ship. guide it confidently (not arrogantly). Everyone makes mistakes and makes bad decisions. if you make one, change it and move on confidently. If you have ideas, have the vocalist try them, but make sure to try their ideas as well.

OK, time to go have a life for a few minutes. take care ya'll
-Ken Lewis

THIS RIGHT HERE IS A PERSONAL JEM! I have recently been working with a young lady who is an amazing vocalist and arranger. Her ear is crazy, she is accustomed to working with pro level engineers (which I am NOT lol) and signed producers, I tend to let her produce her vocals for 2 reasons.

1. Her ear is amazing and better than mine.
2. She is an extreme perfectionist.

I have just tried this "confident" approach with her and it worked. She likes our music and we vibe well but she is always second guessing her & my suggestions and we never get a complete song. i finally just treated her like everyone else and was more definitive and super encouraging of our vocal production and it worked. She always would say "produce me Zay", now its .

Ken I appreciate you sharing, its hard in philly to find people who actually will just talk to you and share their experiences,except for PSM, Storyville & FoundSound (but I found them on this forum) . I appreciate all the positive, straightforward and inquisitive people on this site. i have been a member for over a year and just usually research and read EVERY post I can. Recently I have decided to post and share my experiences with the forum, hopefully a future question or post will help someone else.

[coyotekells]

I personally believe that "lack of soul" in records is not because of comp'ing. It is because they lack soul in the first place. Blame the artist and those working for them, not the techniques.

If the artist brings that "soul" (stupid word) in every take, and you make a comp from 10 takes, all that "soul" (ughh) will still be there, unless YOU ****ed up somehow.

I don't know why people deny themselves great tools and options. Wait.. I do actually:

1) they're lazy
2) then they can have a crutch, an excuse, as to why their record isn't up to par.. "oh, well we did it all in one take" .... lammmmmmmmmme