Vocal Comping with Ken Lewis

[ISayItLikeItIs]

Originally Posted by Ken Lewis

Pushing the hell out of an artist doesnt always mean yelling or screaming, it usually means coaching, teaching, playing psychologist, singing them the lines the way you want to hear them and helping them achieve it. giving them the freedom to experiment, giving them the time to find their comfort zone or let their voice open up right.

ALL OF THESE THINGS TAKE TIME

all of these things can turn what would have been a mediocre or just good vocal performance into what can be a great vocal performance.

you keep every take because you never know what take is going to have a magical moment.

you comp everything together later to find all the best moments of magic that make sense and sound like one great performance. if you can tell it was comp'd, someone dropped the ball somewhere.

Yes, but if it takes too much time, the artist simply isn't ready to work with me personally. If I need to spend 6 hours on a lead vocal doing the things you said (and believe me I have many times.. but it ain't happening again..), the artist just ain't good enough for me. Then it's: "Back to the rehearsal room. Step your game up, before you step in my studio!"
Even with the most trained vocalists, I've had to coach them. But they normally get it right after the first time I tell them something. If they are slow, not working hard, and simply not talented, they won't be asked to come back to my studio.

Originally Posted by Franco

Don't get upset though man, it's not that serious. If you're doing what you're doing and are getting results and your clients are happy, that's the bottom line. Not everyone has to appreciate or respect what you do. Me personally, if you have to use for example, 10 takes and 2 hours of time to cook up an MC's verse, to me, that ain't no MC!

No further comment!

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by ISayItLikeItIs

Yes, but if it takes too much time, the artist simply isn't ready to work with me personally. If I need to spend 6 hours on a lead vocal doing the things you said (and believe me I have many times.. but it ain't happening again..), the artist just ain't good enough for me. Then it's: "Back to the rehearsal room. Step your game up, before you step in my studio!"
Even with the most trained vocalists, I've had to coach them. But they normally get it right after the first time I tell them something. If they are slow, not working hard, and simply not talented, they won't be asked to come back to my studio.






No further comment!

No disrespect intended, but that does sound like you don't live off doing this thing. No problem with that, I don't anymore either, but if you were you wouldn't always have the talent be as talented as you'd prefer, but you STILL have to make a confident record, so you do what you have to do. That's what you're hired for. I like and share the idealist view in your argument, but in the context of making records professionally, if every time you found the artist to be a little less able than you'd like, you wouldn't touch the project, you just wouldn't work a lot. If at all.

Like I say, I hear some of that, as at some point I lost the ability or will to put hard "typewriterwork" into projects that didn't at all "sing" to me, myself.....and therefore no longer do this for a living. But this thread is in the context of making professional records, just highlighting a technique used to get the task done. Tis not an ethical or moral or such thing. Tis just getting the job done, and tips on how to.

[ISayItLikeItIs]

Originally Posted by Karloff70

No disrespect intended, but that does sound like you don't live off doing this thing. No problem with that, I don't anymore either, but if you were you wouldn't always have the talent be as talented as you'd prefer, but you STILL have to make a confident record, so you do what you have to do. That's what you're hired for. I like and share the idealist view in your argument, but in the context of making records professionally, if every time you found the artist to be a little less able than you'd like, you wouldn't touch the project, you just wouldn't work a lot. If at all.

Like I say, I hear some of that, as at some point I lost the ability or will to put hard "typewriterwork" into projects that didn't at all "sing" to me, myself.....and therefore no longer do this for a living. But this thread is in the context of making professional records, just highlighting a technique used to get the task done. Tis not an ethical or moral or such thing. Tis just getting the job done, and tips on how to.

For sure, like I also said before, do what you gotta do! There have been mentioned some good techniques in this thread to get the job done.
And as an engineer you need to know how to comp a vocal performance.
But personally I have put myself in a position where I can chose who I want to work with, so I don't have to take the "spending-10-hours-comping-a-vocal-performance" job any more! I'm really tired of that ish.. It's too much work, too much me doing the artists a big favor with artists that don't really deserve that shine anyways..
But hey, once again, DO YOU! If it pays your bills, I can't blame you..

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by ISayItLikeItIs

For sure, like I also said before, do what you gotta do! There have been mentioned some good techniques in this thread to get the job done.
And as an engineer you need to know how to comp a vocal performance.
But personally I have put myself in a position where I can chose who I want to work with, so I don't have to take the "spending-10-hours-comping-a-vocal-performance" job any more! I'm really tired of that ish.. It's too much work, too much me doing the artists a big favor with artists that don't really deserve that shine anyways..
But hey, once again, DO YOU! If it pays your bills, I can't blame you..

lol....maybe we have something in common then, as if you re-read my post you'll see that my bills are not part of the equation anymore either

[PettyCash]

Originally Posted by Franco

Well, when you go see someone perform live and they're lip sync'ing, or they just plain suck because they can't pull it off like they did "in the studio" and you paid $100 to see them, would it matter then?

It's my job to get the record sounding its best, and the artist's job to try and match it the best they can during their performance.
Me vocal comping an artist instead of just settling for their single best take has nothing to do with how they choose to perform on stage.

Originally Posted by Franco

Word! Probably because...it's not! Far from organic, really, it's more like processed cheese. Maybe one day Guitarists will stop playing solos, and will leave it up to the engineers to stitch up one for them instead?

Obviously it's far from organic, that was the point I was trying to make of why you dislike it so much. Guitarists stop playing solos? Maybe you or your guitarists but not mine .

Originally Posted by Franco

Don't get upset though man, it's not that serious. If you're doing what you're doing and are getting results and your clients are happy, that's the bottom line. Not everyone has to appreciate or respect what you do. Me personally, if you have to use for example, 10 takes and 2 hours of time to cook up an MC's verse, to me, that ain't no MC!

I'm no p***y, and this is nothing but a friendly dicussion, so it's all good. If you don't like what I have to say feel free to not respond back, but I'm going to continue stressing my point as long as I feel I have something to say. Last time I checked this wasn't Franco's world, other dudes have valid opinions as well.

[PettyCash]

Originally Posted by ISayItLikeItIs

For sure, like I also said before, do what you gotta do! There have been mentioned some good techniques in this thread to get the job done.
And as an engineer you need to know how to comp a vocal performance.
But personally I have put myself in a position where I can chose who I want to work with, so I don't have to take the "spending-10-hours-comping-a-vocal-performance" job any more! I'm really tired of that ish.. It's too much work, too much me doing the artists a big favor with artists that don't really deserve that shine anyways..
But hey, once again, DO YOU! If it pays your bills, I can't blame you..

You must have been working with some real shitty artists before then. Even if you decide to go and comp a vocal performance, it shouldn't be so bad that it takes you 10 hours to get something you are satisfied with. When I talk about comping vocals, I talk about something I'm doing for no more than 30-40 mins max. During the recording session, as I'm recording takes, I'm already making a mental note of exactly how I'm gonna do the comp and what I'm going to use for what. Sometimes I may even comp on the fly if the artist is giving me a really great performance except for a tricky spot here and there.

You're right it's all about doing what you got to do, but more importantly it's about knowing the best way to go about doing it. Sticking to one method of doing stuff is dumb, and saying "Oh I would never comp" or do something else that can be useful is foolish as well. As an artist, I had little faith in engineers like that. It's engineers like that who inadvertently lead to me being an engineer myself today.

[ISayItLikeItIs]

Originally Posted by PettyCash

Sticking to one method of doing stuff is dumb, and saying "Oh I would never comp" or do something else that can be useful is foolish as well.

I never said that. I just said I prefer to work with artists where I don't need to comp much!
But yeah in general, never say never...

[coyotekells]

People act like because it took 6 hours to track and all the verses were comp'd, the artist must not be good...

In my experience, THE BETTER THE ARTIST, THE LONGER I SPEND RECORDING!

Does that seem backwards? Here's why:

You can only get so much out of a subpar artist, going forever is pointless and depressing. But you can push a great performer into magical oblivion.

Just like "there's nothing so bad, that it can't get worse", I also believe there's nothing so good that it can't get better.

If I can tell an artist is never going to sound flawless on their song (could have to do with voice, instrumental, lyrics, performing ability, any combo big or small) then I'm only going to spend as much time as they want me to. Which usually is minimal.. people are lazy. And have an attitude that using their first take is "cool".

If I hear amazing potential in an artist and/or song, I'm now on a mission, above and beyond my pay check, to get the BEST I'm capable of coaxing out of them.

I believe it's an inexperienced and amateur attitude that believes the longer the tracking, the worse the artist. I believe the longer the tracking, the more everyone working on it (ie, engineer,producer,artist) believes in the artist and song, and wants to squeeze out every drop of beauty. That same artist probably bangs out what amateurs would call a "flawless take" on the first go. Don't assume because it took hours and hours to track, the artist and engineer could've have chosen to finish the song in an hour. But why? What happened to the search for greatness?

[coyotekells]

Originally Posted by ISayItLikeItIs

I never said that. I just said I prefer to work with artists where I don't need to comp much!
But yeah in general, never say never...

"need" is a relative term. I suspect the same artist that YOU don't "need" to comp, other engineers do. You just don't hear it. Sorry.

[Franco]

Originally Posted by Karloff70

No disrespect intended, but that does sound like you don't live off doing this thing.

I'm a bit of an "against the grain" type of person doing this. I choose not to make the audio thing a full-time gig because the last thing I want is to make this a "job". It's funny that in your statement, one should feel lesser than those who work on audio full time; I personally don't like that lifestyle. If for example, my 6 year old wants me to go watch an episode of The Clone Wars with him, I drop whatever I have going on in my DAW and do it; the last thing you'll ever catch me doing is waiting an hour or two for an artist to show up at a studio, or missing out on dinner with my family - but hey, that's just me. I don't make nearly as much as some of you guys, but I do get work and even better - respect, from those artists who trust me with their work. That's enough for me.

That said, I just realized that you guys must be billing quite a bit of time doing this, so forget everything I've said!

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by Franco

I'm a bit of an "against the grain" type of person doing this. I choose not to make the audio thing a full-time gig because the last thing I want is to make this a "job". It's funny that in your statement, one should feel lesser than those who work on audio full time; I personally don't like that lifestyle. If for example, my 6 year old wants me to go watch an episode of The Clone Wars with him, I drop whatever I have going on in my DAW and do it; the last thing you'll ever catch me doing is waiting an hour or two for an artist to show up at a studio, or missing out on dinner with my family - but hey, that's just me. I don't make nearly as much as some of you guys, but I do get work and even better - respect, from those artists who trust me with their work. That's enough for me.

That said, I just realized that you guys must be billing quite a bit of time doing this, so forget everything I've said!

If you re-read, you'll find I didn't like that life either....after a long taste of it......was just saying that the focus of someone doing this as a sole income is a different one.

[ISayItLikeItIs]

Originally Posted by coyotekells

People act like because it took 6 hours to track and all the verses were comp'd, the artist must not be good...

In my experience, THE BETTER THE ARTIST, THE LONGER I SPEND RECORDING!

Does that seem backwards? Here's why:

You can only get so much out of a subpar artist, going forever is pointless and depressing. But you can push a great performer into magical oblivion.

Just like "there's nothing so bad, that it can't get worse", I also believe there's nothing so good that it can't get better.

If I can tell an artist is never going to sound flawless on their song (could have to do with voice, instrumental, lyrics, performing ability, any combo big or small) then I'm only going to spend as much time as they want me to. Which usually is minimal.. people are lazy. And have an attitude that using their first take is "cool".

If I hear amazing potential in an artist and/or song, I'm now on a mission, above and beyond my pay check, to get the BEST I'm capable of coaxing out of them.

I believe it's an inexperienced and amateur attitude that believes the longer the tracking, the worse the artist. I believe the longer the tracking, the more everyone working on it (ie, engineer,producer,artist) believes in the artist and song, and wants to squeeze out every drop of beauty. That same artist probably bangs out what amateurs would call a "flawless take" on the first go. Don't assume because it took hours and hours to track, the artist and engineer could've have chosen to finish the song in an hour. But why? What happened to the search for greatness?

If I can tell an artist is wack there are two options for me. 1. "Get out of my studio" or 2. Comp, tune, align, do what you gotta do to make it sound right. Some times that takes 6 hours on just the lead vocal.
I would never spend as much time as they want me to, cause they don't know shit! I'll make the artist sing that shit till I'm satisfied!
But as I have mentioned before, I rarely work with those types of artists any more. Thank god!

If the artist is skilled, talented, studio-experienced, well-prepared, knows the voices and harmonies, the song, the arrangement, the vibe, the mood, the bla bla bla.. I.E. comes in and knows what the **** to do, then it NEVER takes as long as with a wack artist. PERIOD! But that's just me!

Originally Posted by coyotekells

"need" is a relative term. I suspect the same artist that YOU don't "need" to comp, other engineers do. You just don't hear it. Sorry.

You don't know me man!

[Ken Lewis]

Does anyone remember that THE BEATLES used to comp LIKE CRAZY!!!! I remember seeing an old documentary that they recorded and kept something like over 60 full takes of one song and comp'd the best pieces together. But The Beatles sucked and i would have kicked them out of my studio and sent them back to the rehearsal room

I get and totally understand the "family first" guys, and i highly respect that. very highly. I dont have kids. my records are my kids.

there have been a ton of good ideas, suggestions, opinions thrown around in this forum. The family first guys opinions are every bit as valid as everyone elses as long as they are kept in the context of family first. I make records (or try to) that people will hear all over the world, and thats the bar i set. As with everything else, set your own bar for what kind of record you are trying to make, or have been hired to make, or are making as a labor of love, and work to that goal.

But if The BEatles comp'd, i will too

[Ryan West]

Let the guy turn anyone out of his studio if he wants to. More work for us! :-)

[voicegenius]

Glad to see this thread take a right turn...

[Franco]

Let me ask something else then, since I don't think I have been making the point I really wanted to make:

Can you guys point me to a track where I can feel the "mood" of the artist for 3-4 minutes? In other words, what comp'd song done in the last 3 years will make me feel the pain of the singer the way I do with an old soul jam? Like for instance, J.B.'s "It's a man's world"?

The Beatles. I read somewhere that they would experiment with vocal tracks and create delays and all sorts of things in the later years ("strawberry fields", "I'm the Walrus", etc.), those cats literally invented sampling by "chopping up" some EMI library recording to avoid having to get proper permission (I think I read that in Geoff Emerick's book). As far as I know, those old songs they perfected while performing thousands of hours in Germany (on beer and uppers), and a little later coming up with such jams as "I call your name", "Please Please Me", "She Loves You", etc. are all one-takers with perhaps some very skilled blending of John's, Paul's and George's vocals. Those cats had a few thousand hours of playing and singing together. All the live recordings I've seen of them in the early years sound pretty much dead on with what they did in the studio. BTW, has anyone seen the Fab Four live? Those cats play and sing their asses of!

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by Ken Lewis

Does anyone remember that THE BEATLES used to comp LIKE CRAZY!!!! I remember seeing an old documentary that they recorded and kept something like over 60 full takes of one song and comp'd the best pieces together. But The Beatles sucked and i would have kicked them out of my studio and sent them back to the rehearsal room

I get and totally understand the "family first" guys, and i highly respect that. very highly. I dont have kids. my records are my kids.

there have been a ton of good ideas, suggestions, opinions thrown around in this forum. The family first guys opinions are every bit as valid as everyone elses as long as they are kept in the context of family first. I make records (or try to) that people will hear all over the world, and thats the bar i set. As with everything else, set your own bar for what kind of record you are trying to make, or have been hired to make, or are making as a labor of love, and work to that goal.

But if The BEatles comp'd, i will too

lol ....so, anyone know a nice "mother-in-waiting" for a pleasant 39 year old who now wants some REAL kids?

[ISayItLikeItIs]

Look guys, some of you are gonna keep advertising comp'ing because that's part of the way you work. And I'm gonna keep saying its boring as hell, and something that I do as a last resort.
So let's just let it be!

But by all means continue the discussion with techniques and stuff for others who are interested.

[Ryan West]

Like I said...do as you please. No one here has asked you to change what you do. If your stated goal is NOT to be a working engineer, then by all means do it exactly how you want. No need for you to compromise your ideals. I do, however, think you're being too judgmental of those of us who work this trade for a living. You won't get far by putting your contemporaries down. It just sounds like you enjoy pointing out how much higher your own standards are than those of us who choose to call this our profession and are willing to give the client what they require to complete their project. Not everyone can be as good as we all want them to be....that's just the way the world works. And just a bit of friendly advice... When you continue to belabor the point and post comment after comment, it's YOU who are not "letting it be."

Originally Posted by ISayItLikeItIs

Look guys, some of you are gonna keep advertising comp'ing because that's part of the way you work. And I'm gonna keep saying its boring as hell, and something that I do as a last resort.
So let's just let it be!

But by all means continue the discussion with techniques and stuff for others who are interested.

[ISayItLikeItIs]

Originally Posted by Ryan West

It just sounds like you enjoy pointing out how much higher your own standards are than those of us who choose to call this our profession and are willing to give the client what they require to complete their project.

No, but I like to let people out there know the truth about things. Plus I'm trying to challenge some of you big shots out there.
IMO the world needs great artists with great vocals, not engineers making mediocre artists sound great. Because a lot of talented engineers can do that. With today's technology, it's not that hard (though it might be time-consuming).
Read also my posts here: Vocal Comping - Obvious Examples

The bottom line for me (for the 3rd time) is this:

Originally Posted by ISayItLikeItIs

Do what you gotta do. If that means taking 100 takes, do it! If it's right after 1 take, then that's that!

[MikeyMike]

Originally Posted by ISayItLikeItIs

No, but I like to let people out there know the truth about things. Plus I'm trying to challenge some of you big shots out there.
IMO the world needs great artists with great vocals, not engineers making mediocre artists sound great. Because a lot of talented engineers can do that. With today's technology, it's not that hard (though it might be time-consuming).
Read also my posts here: Vocal Comping - Obvious Examples

The bottom line for me (for the 3rd time) is this:

thumbsup+1000000000thumbsup Unfortunately, that'll never happen, they are too money hungry. But it's not the engineers fault really, they have to eat, it's the record companies fault for pushing wack music and it's the radio fault for playing it. If the radio didn't play wack music, then nobody would be wasting their time and money making it.

[Ken Lewis]

Originally Posted by ISayItLikeItIs

No, but I like to let people out there know the truth about things. Plus I'm trying to challenge some of you big shots out there

Ummmmmm....... I'll take that challenge. Tell you what. Why dont you post up a vocal performance or two that you recorded that you thought was great, that you either didnt comp or barely spent any time on. Then I'll post up a monster list of songs that i've worked on that have been heavily comp'd. Put up or shut up. Lets hear your idea about the truth of things. I cant wait. -Ken Lewis

[memphisindie]

It's like every thread ends up in a ridiculous, and useless D!ck measuring contest anymore.

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by Ken Lewis

Ummmmmm....... I'll take that challenge. Tell you what. Why dont you post up a vocal performance or two that you recorded that you thought was great, that you either didnt comp or barely spent any time on. Then I'll post up a monster list of songs that i've worked on that have been heavily comp'd. Put up or shut up. Lets hear your idea about the truth of things. I cant wait. -Ken Lewis

Hey Ken,

Unfortunately, there are people who don't understand how records are made on this forum... we can't educate all of them, but we try to help those that want to learn. It's best to let the others think they know it all. Even though they don't know shit, ya know?

Originally Posted by ISayItLikeItIs

Plus I'm trying to challenge some of you big shots out there.

Here's a new rule for the forum... If you "challenge" Ken Lewis or any other multi-platinum engineer to anything on this forum, you get banned.

He's a professional who doesn't need to be spending his time arguing with a-holes on the internet who just joined GS and think they know everything.

You have a valuable resource that's here on the forum interacting with you... if you want to be stupid, do it somewhere else. Stop ****ing up the forum, OK?

ISayItLikeItIs: I'll let you come back in 7 days if you can behave. Otherwise you can go away forever, and anyone else who wants to be stupid can join you. Some people here are walking on thin ice, and I'll be banning people who don't fit in. I've had enough of know-it all's who don't know shit ****ing up this forum.

[voicegenius]

Originally Posted by Ken Lewis

Ummmmmm....... I'll take that challenge. Tell you what. Why dont you post up a vocal performance or two that you recorded that you thought was great, that you either didnt comp or barely spent any time on. Then I'll post up a monster list of songs that i've worked on that have been heavily comp'd. Put up or shut up. Lets hear your idea about the truth of things. I cant wait. -Ken Lewis

Why, oh why, were you even wasting your precious breath and typing on his nonsense...

[Ryan West]

Money hungry?!?!? It's a BUSINESS...not a charity. Though, I agree....the labels push this crap and we'd rather not have to do it...but that's life.

Originally Posted by MikeyMike

thumbsup+1000000000thumbsup Unfortunately, that'll never happen, they are too money hungry. But it's not the engineers fault really, they have to eat, it's the record companies fault for pushing wack music and it's the radio fault for playing it. If the radio didn't play wack music, then nobody would be wasting their time and money making it.

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by TonyBelmont

Hey Ken,

Unfortunately, there are people who don't understand how records are made on this forum... we can't educate all of them, but we try to help those that want to learn. It's best to let the others think they know it all. Even though they don't know shit, ya know?

Here's a new rule for the forum... If you "challenge" Ken Lewis or any other multi-platinum engineer to anything on this forum, you get banned.

He's a professional who doesn't need to be spending his time arguing with a-holes on the internet who just joined GS and think they know everything.

You have a valuable resource that's here on the forum interacting with you... if you want to be stupid, do it somewhere else. Stop ****ing up the forum, OK?

ISayItLikeItIs: I'll let you come back in 7 days if you can behave. Otherwise you can go away forever, and anyone else who wants to be stupid can join you. Some people here are walking on thin ice, and I'll be banning people who don't fit in. I've had enough of know-it all's who don't know shit ****ing up this forum.

That's the post that gave me the single most joy to read ever on this forum I believe! Don't want to add anything.....just want to say......"Yeah, dude......yeahh!!" in a Jack Black kind a way........"I ate some bugs, I ate some grass....and I wiped the tears from my eyes....." Yeah!

[Track Layer]

Just wanted to pop in this thread and say thanks to Ken for posting this gem on his blog and thanks to the OP for reposting it. I got a chance to really try this last night on a raw talent im producing and it worked wonders. He has a really thick muddy voice to begin with and when we comped the vocals it really took the song to the next level. Not only did it make him sound more professional but because of his voice and delivery, the extra care and editing actually opened up the mix so his vocals sat better.

Some people just need to realise that its ok if you want to be creative and go against the grain but the phrase "industry standard" is there for a reason. Unfortunatly the bar is set really low right now so if you do these types of things you will really stand out and be noticed against all the other loads of crap because for one thing, most people dont know about vocal comping (been bedroom engineering for 10 years and never heard of vocal comping till reading Ken's article), another thing, most people dont know how to really do it good and last most people are too lazy. If you want to compete with the people who do this for a living you have to be able to produce a sound that speaks for itself.

Vocal comping is now in my tool box and I will be using this as I have seen the difference it can make in taking your music to the next level.

[Ray Sr.]

Just want to let the pros know that their info is appreciated. It's helped me take my game to the next level. Be seeing ya'll soon. Quote me on that.

[PettyCash]

Originally Posted by ISayItLikeItIs

I never said that. I just said I prefer to work with artists where I don't need to comp much!
But yeah in general, never say never...

That statement was not directed at anyone specific, just saying in general.