Vocal Comping with Ken Lewis

[ISayItLikeItIs]

I just recorded a track with a dope mc. Intro, 4 hooks, 3 verses, and outro in one take! And it was a keeper!
We spent quite a lot of time on the dubs and editing/aligning everything tough! But the lead was there in 3 and half minutes!
I guess that's what separates the amateurs from the pro mc's..

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by ISayItLikeItIs

I just recorded a track with a dope mc. Intro, 4 hooks, 3 verses, and outro in one take! And it was a keeper!
We spent quite a lot of time on the dubs and editing/aligning everything tough! But the lead was there in 3 and half minutes!
I guess that's what separates the amateurs from the pro mc's..

lol

[ISayItLikeItIs]

Originally Posted by Karloff70

lol

Why is that funny? I'm not joking!

Do you think Jay-Z is doing 10 full takes of a song and then comping that together?
If he is, I'd be very surprised...

[MYAMS]

Originally Posted by ISayItLikeItIs

Why is that funny? I'm not joking!

Do you think Jay-Z is doing 10 full takes of a song and then comping that together?
If he is, I'd be very surprised...

Bro this stuff applies much more for pop vocals- not spontaneous hip-hop recordings

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by MYAMS

Bro this stuff applies much more for pop vocals- not spontaneous hip-hop recordings

bingo

[ISayItLikeItIs]

For sure, bro!

But my specific example was with a rapper.

I too have spent hours just on getting the lead right, meticulously perfecting every detail.

But the better the artist is, the less time it normally takes to get everything right!


And let me add, that in the example I talked about, we spent a couple minutes testing the mic and setting up the comp and headphone mix. But once we were happy and I said go, he nailed it in one take!

Both me and him were ecstatic, because it was a first time experience for me, having someone nail an entire song in one take, and the first take even!

So my point with sharing the story was to say that you need to treat every situation differently. Do what you gotta do. If that means taking 100 takes, do it! If it's right after 1 take, then that's that!

[wreckd]

Originally Posted by ISayItLikeItIs

I just recorded a track with a dope mc. Intro, 4 hooks, 3 verses, and outro in one take! And it was a keeper!
We spent quite a lot of time on the dubs and editing/aligning everything tough! But the lead was there in 3 and half minutes!
I guess that's what separates the amateurs from the pro mc's..

Care to give us a listen to an excerpt?

[coyotekells]

Originally Posted by ISayItLikeItIs

Why is that funny? I'm not joking!

Do you think Jay-Z is doing 10 full takes of a song and then comping that together?
If he is, I'd be very surprised...

I'm sure lots of Jay-Z records have comp'd verses... punches? probably not.. But i wouldn't be suprised that if he's working with a great engineer (which I'm sure he does a lot).. they're going to remember "hey, there was a few lines near that end that sounded a bit slicker than in the main take we chose".. and comp a few lines here and there, just to add the extra magic.

Not the same process as sung pop vocals though, no...

[coyotekells]

Originally Posted by voicegenius

This is an old blog, but for people/noobies who would like to know his approach, this is great. Also, some other great vocal techniques as well... Great blog Ken!

Music Mixing Blog - Ken Lewis News, Thoughts and Advice for Musicians

Just finished 2 days lockdown recording and comp'ing... RnB song with a lot of hip hop bounce to it. Definitely a bit Mary J.

Everything was comp'd, except spots that had a punch for an adlib or effect, those were were all recorded multiple times, even if the first was great, just see what else is there.

I'm worn out.. but the results are what makes the difference without a doubt.

[PettyCash]

Originally Posted by Franco

Hm, I respectfully disagree it has anything to do with passion for "making" music from the standpoint of an engineer. First off, I know this is the way the industry works these days and "comp'ing" is a typical process that happens with the biggest names out there today, what I find interesting is that at the end you talk about "passion for making music."

You're not the one making the music, you're doctoring it. I completely agree with your statement about being passionate with music, but only if it's coming from the artists who sing and play it. James Brown used to tax his players if they got their chops down slightly off, George Martin actually played on many Beatles records, but when you're talking about taking takes and re-arranging them, you're not making music; you're re-arranging the music to suit your vision, and sure, maybe you took a line here and there and made the verse sound better, and if you did your job well, the listener can't even tell.

But that's it - that's all you're doing with this. You're taking the "best" parts of a performance and stitching them together; you're hiding the artists' mistakes. As a producer however, what are you doing with the artist in the studio to get them to "legend" status, where they can nail it in one or two takes?

Well from the standpoint of a producer/engineer (which is what I stated in the first place) it has a lot to do with passion. As a producer, great sound is everything to me. I want whatever it takes done to end up with the best possible sounding end product. As an engineer, I have the tools and knowledge necessary to make that happen. If it means doing something as annoying and tedious as having to comp vocals to get a great sounding verse, I'm willing to do it.

Comping is not necessary to complete a good song.... a 99.9% perfect verse is not necessary either... But I push to get that anyway. Why? Because I'm a fan of hearing great sounding music. Great sounding music is a passion of mine as a listener, which has lead to another passion of mine which is making what I think is great sounding music.

IMO, making great music means you gave it your all and did everything you could do at that time to make it the best you could. Whether the majority of people think your song is great or not you wont actually know until more people have a chance to listen to it. For the time being it's up to those involved in the project to make that judgement. As a producer, if vocal comping will help the artist's message sound more attractive to listeners, I'm making that call. As an engineer also, I'm the one who actually has to put together the vocal comp. If I was a lazy f*, I would just say screw it and maybe punch in vocals where the verse sounds it's weakest. As the producer of the song, whatever I do as an engineer is still me making music. If you think differently fine, but there is nothing wrong with my opinion.

Legends don't become legends because they can nail a verse in 1 or 2 takes. That might make someone a recording legend one day amoungst others who work within the industry, but not a legend amoungst the general public... amoungst the average person. So that being said, who cares if you can or cannot get a verse down in 1 or 2 takes; who cares if you are a legend amoungst your peers in the industry if that's not the reason you are creating music. There are more important factors than that of which you mentioned. It's flattering yes, but at the end of the day I'm pretty sure an artist has more interest in influencing the whole world with their music.

Our thoughts on the "meaning" of passion are definitely different.

[coyotekells]

Originally Posted by ISayItLikeItIs

I just recorded a track with a dope mc. Intro, 4 hooks, 3 verses, and outro in one take! And it was a keeper!
We spent quite a lot of time on the dubs and editing/aligning everything tough! But the lead was there in 3 and half minutes!
I guess that's what separates the amateurs from the pro mc's..

Yes it is.. thus, you're obviously an amateur.

Anyone so good they nail it one take, also knows they might do it even better if they take a whole 30 seconds and spit it again.

Amateurs are afraid of a little extra work, or don't believe something could be better. It can always be better. But weak ears might not be able to tell the difference.

[ISayItLikeItIs]

Originally Posted by coyotekells

Yes it is.. thus, you're obviously an amateur.

Anyone so good they nail it one take, also knows they might do it even better if they take a whole 30 seconds and spit it again.

Amateurs are afraid of a little extra work, or don't believe something could be better. It can always be better. But weak ears might not be able to tell the difference.

Originally Posted by ISayItLikeItIs

Do what you gotta do. If that means taking 100 takes, do it! If it's right after 1 take, then that's that!

A pro knows when it's right.

[Karloff70]

Sorry, but even if you get blessed with a brilliant first take working with an artist who delivers magic on the spot you'd do at least two more takes automatically. If they get worse, you find out. If they get better , you find that out too.......doesn't strike me as pro in any way to let someone out of the studio after one single take, regardless how good you think it is in that moment. Just careless and a touch arrogant.

[ISayItLikeItIs]

Originally Posted by Karloff70

Sorry, but even if you get blessed with a brilliant first take working with an artist who delivers magic on the spot you'd do at least two more takes automatically. If they get worse, you find out. If they get better , you find that out too.......doesn't strike me as pro in any way to let someone out of the studio after one single take, regardless how good you think it is in that moment. Just careless and a touch arrogant.

I know what I'm doing!
Plus this has only happened one time EVER!

[J CraQ]

wow

[coyotekells]

Originally Posted by ISayItLikeItIs

I know what I'm doing!
Plus this has only happened one time EVER!

You said he did perfect in 1 take... and that makes him a pro.

So what happens when he does a second take? Does it go downhill from there? In that case, Im not sure he's the pro you claimed him to be, more like a fluke to get a great first take.

And it's not going to be exactly the same on second take.. maybe better if not worse..so....

Sorry, no "pro" is going to get with your logic.

Maybe when you post the snippet people will apologize for calling you out. But I doubt it.

[sinicalmicmusic]

i always tell the artists that I'm recording "if you can do it good you can do it better". I'm not sure why people obsess over getting it down in 1 take. they come to me like "OK within this 3hr session we are going to record 3 full songs". when i say that its possible but not likely they go into there cocky "oh ittle only take 2-3 takes per verse" BS. oh also these people are the type to never get it right no matter how many takes it takes!! knowing how to edit and piece together a good performance quickly is highly important. its usually not a matter of laziness but a matter of time. if its out of the artists pocket for some reason its about quantity not quality.

[ISayItLikeItIs]

You guys are missing my point, which was:

Originally Posted by ISayItLikeItIs

...the better the artist is, the less time it normally takes to get everything right!

...

So my point with sharing the story was to say that you need to treat every situation differently. Do what you gotta do. If that means taking 100 takes, do it! If it's right after 1 take, then that's that!

[Ken Lewis]

Originally Posted by Karloff70

Sorry, but even if you get blessed with a brilliant first take working with an artist who delivers magic on the spot you'd do at least two more takes automatically. If they get worse, you find out. If they get better , you find that out too.......doesn't strike me as pro in any way to let someone out of the studio after one single take, regardless how good you think it is in that moment. Just careless and a touch arrogant.

Well said. basically took the words right out of my typing apparatus

My other favorite is when somebody sites one of the absolute best in the world (Jay-Z) as the example for the way the rest of us should do it.

And as far as that "passion" comment someone made, and how the engineer is just doing his job and isnt "passionate about the music". dude, as an engineer i've saved more projects than i can count on a musical level, and as a producer, i perform as a musician and often vocalist on almost everything i produce. Also, as a producer, its your job to get the absolute best out of a vocalist. That takes quite a passion for music to know how to do that.

food for thought, and i'm glad some people are actually thinking about it.
-Ken Lewis

[Ryan West]

Go get 'em, Ken! I was hoping that I could join the discussion community here. Any advice on how I can help or what I can add to GearSlutz?

Originally Posted by Ken Lewis

Well said. basically took the words right out of my typing apparatus

My other favorite is when somebody sites one of the absolute best in the world (Jay-Z) as the example for the way the rest of us should do it.

And as far as that "passion" comment someone made, and how the engineer is just doing his job and isnt "passionate about the music". dude, as an engineer i've saved more projects than i can count on a musical level, and as a producer, i perform as a musician and often vocalist on almost everything i produce. Also, as a producer, its your job to get the absolute best out of a vocalist. That takes quite a passion for music to know how to do that.

food for thought, and i'm glad some people are actually thinking about it.
-Ken Lewis

[Ken Lewis]

Originally Posted by Ryan West

Go get 'em, Ken! I was hoping that I could join the discussion community here. Any advice on how I can help or what I can add to GearSlutz?

I just post like anybody else. Find the topics i like, throw in my opinions, tips, etc... you'd certainly have quite alot to offer Ryan. There are a ton of pro's on these boards, come on in!!
-Ken

PS. if ya'll dont know who ryan west is, start googling. One of the best.

[Ray Sr.]

Glad to see the more pros here. Just keeps getting better.

[Franco]

Originally Posted by PettyCash

As an engineer, I have the tools and knowledge necessary to make that happen. If it means doing something as annoying and tedious as having to comp vocals to get a great sounding verse, I'm willing to do it.

That's actually an excellent point. It kind of just hit me now that a while ago (let's say, back in the Motown era), it wasn't possible for producers and engineers to do what is possible today; this is probably why they focused more on coaching the artists and waiting for "that" take. I hadn't thought about it in that sense. I mean, this comp'ing technique sounds tedious indeed, but I can't even imagine how you would do this sort of thing if you had to splice tape.

I'm sure if Phil Specter had the tools he probably would have been more chilled-out. I suppose the side effect to this level of editing of course is that performance-wise, you guys at the helm of the audio industry are not pushing the artists to be the next Michael Jackson (in terms of the stories I've heard of him in the booth).

Passion, like any other emotion, varies from person to person. I kind of feel depressed that I have to dig up old music to "feel" a performance from an artist and feel that I don't hear the same pains or sorrows in performances today. Unfortunately I don't listen to too much commercial music to know all of it, but Sharon Jones is someone I really like these days, I'm willing to bet they don't comp her vocals. I heard her one day and I immediately bought almost everything she's done.

[Karloff70]

You wouldn't splice tape, you'd route all your vocal takes off tape back to a fresh track of tape and bounce cutting it together with mutes. Used to be great fun (not...) doing a comp with the SSL auto muting in and out of words....lol.......easy peasey now........not sure if they comp much at Daptones, but if its done right, you shouldn't be able to tell anyway

[ISayItLikeItIs]

Originally Posted by Franco

That's actually an excellent point. It kind of just hit me now that a while ago (let's say, back in the Motown era), it wasn't possible for producers and engineers to do what is possible today; this is probably why they focused more on coaching the artists and waiting for "that" take. I hadn't thought about it in that sense. I mean, this comp'ing technique sounds tedious indeed, but I can't even imagine how you would do this sort of thing if you had to splice tape.

I'm sure if Phil Specter had the tools he probably would have been more chilled-out. I suppose the side effect to this level of editing of course is that performance-wise, you guys at the helm of the audio industry are not pushing the artists to be the next Michael Jackson (in terms of the stories I've heard of him in the booth).

Passion, like any other emotion, varies from person to person. I kind of feel depressed that I have to dig up old music to "feel" a performance from an artist and feel that I don't hear the same pains or sorrows in performances today. Unfortunately I don't listen to too much commercial music to know all of it, but Sharon Jones is someone I really like these days, I'm willing to bet they don't comp her vocals. I heard her one day and I immediately bought almost everything she's done.

+1 for MJ and Sharon Jones!

Originally Posted by Karloff70

You wouldn't splice tape, you'd route all your vocal takes off tape back to a fresh track of tape and bounce cutting it together with mutes. Used to be great fun (not...) doing a comp with the SSL auto muting in and out of words....lol.......easy peasey now........not sure if they comp much at Daptones, but if its done right, you shouldn't be able to tell anyway

I used to do that with drums some times, with tape and a sampler though. Bounce the tracks to the sampler and then back to tape where you wanted it!

[PettyCash]

Originally Posted by Franco

Unfortunately I don't listen to too much commercial music to know all of it, but Sharon Jones is someone I really like these days, I'm willing to bet they don't comp her vocals. I heard her one day and I immediately bought almost everything she's done.

Question is... To the average consumer/listener would it matter whether they did comp her vocals or not? No

To a purist like yourself I can understand why it would matter. Just the thought of comping vocals doesn't feel organic to you, and I can understand that to a certain extent. A thing that bothers me is when I do hear where they comp the vocals (easier to tell with Rap), and it sounds blatant. Other than that it's all good, and when the artist hears what a perfect lead vocal of theirs could sound like they can practice it that way to the point where their performance on stage sounds much like their recording in the studio.

[Ryan West]

PettyCash makes a number of great points here, but the last is the most important. If you want to succeed as a tracking engineer, you should help the artist to progress, not admonish them for their shortcomings. Doing an excellent comp for an artist can be very revealing for them. Also, if you're the first engineer to do that for them, they are likely going to hire you again....because you make them sound better! While I admire your point "Isayitlikeitis", it's not realistic...or friendly. Your job is to help make BETTER records! Just because the technology wasn't available years ago doesn't mean it's not a valid way of making records. If you really believe that, just go ahead and turn in your DAW, keyboards and whatever else you have that is a product of modern engineering. Just my 2 cents.
RW

Originally Posted by PettyCash

Question is... To the average consumer/listener would it matter whether they did comp her vocals or not? No

To a purist like yourself I can understand why it would matter. Just the thought of comping vocals doesn't feel organic to you, and I can understand that to a certain extent. A thing that bothers me is when I do hear where they comp the vocals (easier to tell with Rap), and it sounds blatant. Other than that it's all good, and when the artist hears what a perfect lead vocal of theirs could sound like they can practice it that way to the point where their performance on stage sounds much like their recording in the studio.

[Franco]

Originally Posted by PettyCash

Question is... To the average consumer/listener would it matter whether they did comp her vocals or not? No

Well, when you go see someone perform live and they're lip sync'ing, or they just plain suck because they can't pull it off like they did "in the studio" and you paid $100 to see them, would it matter then?

Originally Posted by PettyCash

To a purist like yourself I can understand why it would matter. Just the thought of comping vocals doesn't feel organic to you, and...

Word! Probably because...it's not! Far from organic, really, it's more like processed cheese. Maybe one day Guitarists will stop playing solos, and will leave it up to the engineers to stitch up one for them instead?

Don't get upset though man, it's not that serious. If you're doing what you're doing and are getting results and your clients are happy, that's the bottom line. Not everyone has to appreciate or respect what you do. Me personally, if you have to use for example, 10 takes and 2 hours of time to cook up an MC's verse, to me, that ain't no MC!

[Ken Lewis]

Originally Posted by Franco

I suppose the side effect to this level of editing of course is that performance-wise, you guys at the helm of the audio industry are not pushing the artists to be the next Michael Jackson (in terms of the stories I've heard of him in the booth).

Speaking for myself when i produce, i take many takes because i'm usually pushing the hell out of an artist to give me their absolute best. If you think its organic to just take a take or two and use that, then i'd say you could count on one hand the number of artists probably truly capable of an amazing performance like that.

Pushing the hell out of an artist doesnt always mean yelling or screaming, it usually means coaching, teaching, playing psychologist, singing them the lines the way you want to hear them and helping them achieve it. giving them the freedom to experiment, giving them the time to find their comfort zone or let their voice open up right.

ALL OF THESE THINGS TAKE TIME

all of these things can turn what would have been a mediocre or just good vocal performance into what can be a great vocal performance.

you keep every take because you never know what take is going to have a magical moment.

you comp everything together later to find all the best moments of magic that make sense and sound like one great performance. if you can tell it was comp'd, someone dropped the ball somewhere.

Ask any singer i've produced and you'll absolutely know they remember getting a serious workout in the vocal booth.

Those of you siting the most gifted singers, or the old motown recordings that have stood the test of time clearly have never heard all of the records made in those days that were painful to listen to because they arent around anymore. plenty of crap has been made in every era or recording.

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by Ken Lewis

Speaking for myself when i produce, i take many takes because i'm usually pushing the hell out of an artist to give me their absolute best. If you think its organic to just take a take or two and use that, then i'd say you could count on one hand the number of artists probably truly capable of an amazing performance like that.

Pushing the hell out of an artist doesnt always mean yelling or screaming, it usually means coaching, teaching, playing psychologist, singing them the lines the way you want to hear them and helping them achieve it. giving them the freedom to experiment, giving them the time to find their comfort zone or let their voice open up right.

ALL OF THESE THINGS TAKE TIME

all of these things can turn what would have been a mediocre or just good vocal performance into what can be a great vocal performance.

you keep every take because you never know what take is going to have a magical moment.

you comp everything together later to find all the best moments of magic that make sense and sound like one great performance. if you can tell it was comp'd, someone dropped the ball somewhere.

Ask any singer i've produced and you'll absolutely know they remember getting a serious workout in the vocal booth.

Those of you siting the most gifted singers, or the old motown recordings that have stood the test of time clearly have never heard all of the records made in those days that were painful to listen to because they arent around anymore. plenty of crap has been made in every era or recording.

lol.....in with reality and out with the mythical rubbish