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Lawrence
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#1
13th February 2009
Old 13th February 2009
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VariAudio

Here's a short video of Cubase 5 VariAudio in use on a vocal. The source tracks are from a Cubase 4 demo.

The quality is surprisingly good when the source audio is good.

VariAudio

I captured this with Jing and edited it with Sony Vegas Movie Studio.
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13th February 2009
Old 13th February 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
Here's a short video of Cubase 5 VariAudio in use on a vocal. The source tracks are from a Cubase 4 demo.

The quality is surprisingly good when the source audio is good.

VariAudio

I captured this with Jing and edited it with Sony Vegas Movie Studio.
But it doesn't tell you anything... every program can transpose 200 cent.

To see if it's any good (e.g. does it match Melodyne?), you have to transpose at LEAST 4-500 cent, preferably more, and do some serious formant shift.
Lawrence
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13th February 2009
Old 13th February 2009
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Quote:
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But it doesn't tell you anything... every program can transpose 200 cent.

To see if it's any good (e.g. does it match Melodyne?), you have to transpose at LEAST 4-500 cent, preferably more, and do some serious formant shift.
It tells me all I need to know, that I can tune my tracks that are out of tune very easily, without hassle and without using a third party application or plugin. I'm not in the habit of creating fake vocal harmonies or parts based on duplicating a real part up 3 whole steps or whatever so I have no use for that other stuff. I just need to correct tuning (or slightly change melody) when necessary, and without hassle.

If any performer is a whole step out of tune... a re-take is probably in order.

The idea that it has to "match Melodyne" to be any good is... not useful. I've been manually tuning vocals for years and I've never owned Melodyne.
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23rd March 2009
Old 23rd March 2009
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VariAudio --> MIDI Export Functionality?

VariAudio --> MIDI Export Functionality?

Currently i'm using Cubase SX3. I was just reading SOS though, saying that the VariAudio can be as built-in Audio to Midi functionality? Which I find interesting.

- ie for say converting Guitar to Midi Synth Bass or Vocals to other parts.

Has anyone used the Midi Export much? is it worth upgrading just for this? The other new functions look rather un-inspiring to me.

I don't use AutoTune / Melodyne so I'm no that fussed about pitch correction.
Lawrence
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23rd March 2009
Old 23rd March 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by echoclerk View Post
VariAudio --> MIDI Export Functionality?

Currently i'm using Cubase SX3. I was just reading SOS though, saying that the VariAudio can be as built-in Audio to Midi functionality? Which I find interesting.

- ie for say converting Guitar to Midi Synth Bass or Vocals to other parts.

Has anyone used the Midi Export much? is it worth upgrading just for this? The other new functions look rather un-inspiring to me.

I don't use AutoTune / Melodyne so I'm no that fussed about pitch correction.
Yes it will export a midi track from a mono audio track, note for note. The only thing missing from that (and necessary for drums to midi) is velocity information.

Not sure why they didn't include that. If it did velocity it would be perfect.

But it works well for things like vocalizing bass / melody lines that you can't play on a keyboard and then transferring the data to midi where you can edit the velocities. Think midi bass... it's easier for many of us who have heard bass players groove to emulate those kinds of patterns vocally than playing them on a keyboard.

It's useful for that kinda thing in midi production.
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20th August 2009
Old 20th August 2009
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Hi there

I just took vari audio for an extensive spin and after about 1 hour of increasing frustration and trying a myriad of different singing techniques i got the MIDI export just right, which took me way longer on melodyne platform.

What i did resort to was setting up the pitch correction plug on the input and just sang some stuff into the internal mac mic.

the pitch correction settings was harsh and very "perfect" so the resulting audio was fairly yuck. but that worked out good for variaudio midi export algorithms.

that was the music experience i had. i was just singing chemical brothers galvanize into mac mic and then exported midi onto selected halion 1 instument track set up an appropriate sound.

then exported the midi as music.xls file just to see how it would sound on sibelius and it was gorgeous it captured all of my little dynamics. and tried the same witout pitch corretion on input and it was far too jittery and showed all of my vocal inconsistencies. shows how good i am at singing ha ha.

I think you will need to get used to using pitch correction and variaudios various features if you want something musical. but people who want to beatbox and set up a routing to groove agent or sampler its mearly a case of taking the vocal segments and moving them up of down to appropriate note on the piano roll and wallah get any beat put it in time later, fix it later, do some velocity automation, (very very annoying thing about variaudio, wonder if melodyne audio to midi addresses this, maybe have to try KTDrumTrigger) whatever. but as i said it took me well over an hour before i heard any thing useable.

a friend played bass through DI on his computer and sent file to mine i sent it through a bass synth and with careful gating i got a huge bass sound like paralell sything lots of people do that i hear, just with vari audio its like a no brainer. But for guitarists melodyne DNA might be better... for me i have no want for melodyne now.

But i cant live without this feature after last night, this will be the base of all my work because i can sing a tune and analyze it fix it export midi and make music sheet and give it my guitarist friends, or extract drum tab for drummers, anything really. I know i can send it to guitar samplers too but real people playing what i sing without me having to write music for hours would keep me content.

SORRY FOR BLAH BLAH BLAHing on

Suda Badri
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20th August 2009
Old 20th August 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post

Not sure why they didn't include that. If it did velocity it would be perfect.
Sounds like that would be difficult. Do any programs do that?

Isn't it just slicing the audio and re-packaging it in midi form? The "recorder" doesn't have an algo to detect loudness and code that variable into every midi block, or does it?

You can do similar with Groove Agent. It will take sliced audio parts and spit them back out as midi, but it doesn't read tune, note, or velocity. It only copies each slice into a midi block as is. Kinda like importing an audio file into Battery, and throwing it back out as a midi block. Battery doesn't know what tune or velocity your samples are.
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24th August 2009
Old 24th August 2009
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Apparently the melodyne audio to midi does detect loudness... but you will have to buy the full on melodyne...

variaudio is a bit painful when analyzing drums, i had to generate tone then gate it sidechained to a split of drumkit with everything but the lows filtered out, then variaudio analyzes the tone track and everything is hunky dory but velocities need to be attended to later.

I tried every drum replacer and this method is the one that gets me 90 percent of the way, id imagine the melodyne audio to midi might keep the velocity.

Groove agent one is as you say a sampler in a sense, once you analyze audio it simply triggers the slices, but does not give you those midi notes on a track like vari audio.
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24th August 2009
Old 24th August 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suda Badri View Post

Groove agent one is as you say a sampler in a sense, once you analyze audio it simply triggers the slices, but does not give you those midi notes on a track like vari audio.
Yeah it does. Thats what the big export button is for.
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24th August 2009
Old 24th August 2009
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Oh right, sorry... duh will go and try that out instead on my round about tone generating way... cheers.
Lawrence
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24th August 2009
Old 24th August 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smoke View Post
Sounds like that would be difficult. Do any programs do that?

Isn't it just slicing the audio and re-packaging it in midi form? The "recorder" doesn't have an algo to detect loudness and code that variable into every midi block, or does it?.
Cubase already pulls velocity from audio parts when doing groove extraction. Not that hard to do, translate db values to midi velocity in some type of relative way. I'm not sure why they left that out of the midi export in VariAudio.
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24th August 2009
Old 24th August 2009
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I asked a Steinberg rep why vari audio does not do velocity extracton and he said "we believe vari audios midi extraction used with the new set of VST expressions yeild a much better sense of realism"

I replied that does ont make sense as i would use VST expression (which i have not tried out at all) mostly in when composing and not when i want to capture a performance.

He told me to write a detailed appeal in the forum as feature request.

Hopefully, they will implement it in an update.
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24th August 2009
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VST expression allows you to set velocity as a controller, amongst other things, but it definitely wouldn't replace velocity extraction.

Right now, setting up VST expression is clunky and more work than it's worth. However, HOne has some track presets with a VX tag that have built in expressions. They work decent and are a good way to learn what VST expression is about. If you have Halion Symphonic Orchestra, the VX expression really shines. The expressions I'd say add 50% more realism to any performance instantly, if you're willing to do the work.
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24th August 2009
Old 24th August 2009
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cool thanks for the info smoke, i will definately try and get my head around VST expressions.
Lawrence
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25th August 2009
Old 25th August 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suda Badri View Post
I asked a Steinberg rep why vari audio does not do velocity extracton and he said "we believe vari audios midi extraction used with the new set of VST expressions yeild a much better sense of realism" .
I disagree with that premise since the realism you want in that particular case is some reasonable representation of the original performance's dynamics... like with Drumagog. Replacing a kick with a sample would be silly if all the samples played at the same velocity and you had to manually edit all of the midi notes to match the player's dynamics.

Strangely enough, I recall that when I asked that same question on the Steinberg forum I was told it was planned for a future update. The quote you passed on above sounds like the marketing department making excuses for an obvious oversight... not a reasonable answer to a direct question.

Without velocity it's pretty useless for extracting midi from long tracks, unless you want the whole track to play at 127. It works fine for short passages, just edit the velocities or create a groove template from the audio and apply it... but you can't make 5:00 groove templates.

Anyway, with velocity it would be a perfect drum replacement tool. Even for kicks that don't register way down low you can tune/pitch them up beforehand to make sure they'd be on some recognizable pitch and then extract the midi. Perfect. Without velocity, almost useless.
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26th August 2009
Old 26th August 2009
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Strange, I had asked in accordance to me being able to sing vocals and and use vari audio to set up midi notes so i can build songs around that.

I didnt ask in relation to drums, so he might have thought i didnt know about VST expressions, which is sort of true cos if smoke had not added on the benefits of it i might have completely overlooked it.

But i agree with you Lawrence, even though its a great program for pitch and time extraction, dynamics is a very big part of a performance and deserves to be extracted to make the performance seem real.

Planned for a future update, thats good i have not got around to putting in that feature request, if they already are working on it, ill just pass.

I am actually wanting to beat box beats and then extract them into drum kits, then sing gat or synth parts over... the day that gets easy and doable all in one DAW.

I had fun getting a some good guitar harmonies using the Chorder midi insert after singing a tune, which i had to sing really loud (trying to mimic a guitar) for vari audio to notate.

The other cool new program i found (dunno if its new) is that zPlane vielklang, which promises to do all of the above plus help you create structure to songs. Its fairly priced as well.
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