It's rhythmic and tonal. The BPMs are a good starting point. But listen for rhythmic feel, and tonal cues.
Yeah, I just messed around with a session. BPM was actually pretty close mathematically on one that I felt I did a decent job. Another that was problematic was way off. I found using BPM got me much closer to what I wanted and didn't take much time at all. It wasn't the nail in the coffin, it just got me to a good place to start, instead of feeling clueless.
My point was more of a "why didn't I ever make that connection" more than anything. Reverb has always been a weak point for me, sometimes I would get it, sometimes not. It's just sort of an "ah ha" moment. Still need to learn a bunch but between you and some others, my mixing has improved greatly this year (plus I am taking it more seriously in general, that helped too).
I have been pretty vocal about my feelings on this thread in many of my other posts. It just seems like 9/10 reverb questions are answered in this lengthy thread.
I completely agree w talintsiawd on that last post... It's such a "duh, why didn't I think of that," concept. But once that realization is reached, it gets fun quick!
Funny enough, the only other post on the subforum that has been as useful in the last two years or so was storyville's thread on compression. I hope folks who dig this one check that one out too!
Yeah, I just messed around with a session. BPM was actually pretty close mathematically on one that I felt I did a decent job. Another that was problematic was way off. I found using BPM got me much closer to what I wanted and didn't take much time at all. It wasn't the nail in the coffin, it just got me to a good place to start, instead of feeling clueless.
My point was more of a "why didn't I ever make that connection" more than anything. Reverb has always been a weak point for me, sometimes I would get it, sometimes not. It's just sort of an "ah ha" moment. Still need to learn a bunch but between you and some others, my mixing has improved greatly this year (plus I am taking it more seriously in general, that helped too).
Reverb isn't easy. In fact, I would say, environmental sound - be it in the tracking or mixing phase is probably the toughest aspect of making records. I posted this link up in the check out my mix thread because I felt it was worth discussing.
You don't really ever notice the reverbs in this mix, but there quite a number of them - including reverb on the vocals, even though the vocals sound really close.
That's because I'm matching the tones in the reverb to the tones in the track - it just feels super cohesive when approached that way.
Reverb isn't easy. In fact, I would say, environmental sound - be it in the tracking or mixing phase is probably the toughest aspect of making records.
First, I will come back to the track, youtube is hanging up.
But yes, as a beat maker, EQ was always the easiest. Compression, it isn't easy but over time it starts to make sense. Reverb isn't hard, necessarily on just a beat either. Not to mention all these other effects.
In the last year, I really went from a beat maker to mostly in house. I still use a mixing engineer but I try to mix all my songs to the best of my ability on my time. I used to hate mixing beats, now that is the thing I like most. Now, I hate mixing songs but I am starting to enjoy it.
Reverb, as I said, sounds simple. As we both said, it is so much so. You know more than me but it's damn hard for me to learn on my own. I did two new mixes, still nothing special, just cleanish and kind of dull but using the ideas you gave, is making me better. Give me more than 6 hours or so and I think I may have something, lol. But this thread plus some work.....
One technique that will work 90% of the time - set your reverb with the return level very loud. Match the tone and rhythms the way that feels good but just way too swampy, then turn the return level down until it feels like it's "part" of the source sound. Then make a couple slight adjustments just to lock it in place. Unless you want the reverb to be deliberately heard as its own thing like in an a ballad.
A slightly trickier technique that I've been using more recently, that I absolutely love, is to use a delay and a "far away" sounding reverb. Set a source that you want forward in the mix, get your ambiance using the delay, then send a little of the delay to the "far away" verb. I call this "painting the back wall", because it attempts to create the sound of a far away physical boundary - and it keeps the source sound relatively forward in the process.
One technique that will work 90% of the time - set your reverb with the return level very loud. Match the tone and rhythms the way that feels good but just way too swampy, then turn the return level down until it feels like it's "part" of the source sound. Then make a couple slight adjustments just to lock it in place. Unless you want the reverb to be deliberately heard as its own thing like in an a ballad.
A slightly trickier technique that I've been using more recently, that I absolutely love, is to use a delay and a "far away" sounding reverb. Set a source that you want forward in the mix, get your ambiance using the delay, then send a little of the delay to the "far away" verb. I call this "painting the back wall", because it attempts to create the sound of a far away physical boundary - and it keeps the source sound relatively forward in the process.
It's odd you say that because i used the first technique on the main parts and I am trying to get the second right on an adlib. The rapper I am working with sometimes just adlibs the whole song after we are done and I am trying to get a good delay.
Do you think I could PM you for some advice some time? I can't really put up the music as the rapper I am working with would not appreciate it. I am not the final mixing engineer either and I am not sure I trust who he wants to go through (I am making the investment). I would love to hear your thoughts. Sorry if that is too upfront.
It's odd you say that because i used the first technique on the main parts and I am trying to get the second right on an adlib. The rapper I am working with sometimes just adlibs the whole song after we are done and I am trying to get a good delay.
Do you think I could PM you for some advice some time? I can't really put up the music as the rapper I am working with would not appreciate it. I am not the final mixing engineer either and I am not sure I trust who he wants to go through (I am making the investment). I would love to hear your thoughts. Sorry if that is too upfront.
Great thread, but unless I'm mistaken, I haven't read much mentioned about the direct sound level when using a reverb send as far as "where in the room does a sound appears to be". I'm currently reading Mike Senior's reverb section in his book and I'm testing stuff right now. This thread's and Mike's tips about reverb parameters are great, but the fact that the signal path when sending a signal to a reverb buss is post-fader leaves me with the sonic impression of an in-your-face sound with some reverb mixed in instead of hearing the sound in a physical space. I do understand the logic of this setting when you're riding faders and you want to keep an even reverb level though.
However, one thing I really like about older recordings, especially pop from the 50's and 60's is that I can see in my mind that the orchestra was far back in the room and that the singer was much closer to the microphone. So far, the only way I can emulate that feeling is by putting the send signal pre-fader (post-fx) or pre-fader in Reaper and playing with the track level and leaving the reverb buss level at unity of course. I'm testing with a vocal track from the Weathervane project and I really can place the singer in the room this way. Not so with the a post-fader setting and send level to my ValhallaRoom buss.
Would be great to read some thoughts on this.
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This has some really cool stuff on reverb. You have to listen through the "Dave speak" a little bit at parts, but check the into-the-lair segment. Very dope.
S/O to storyville. I have been reading this thread for a couple of days now trying to soak in as much info as possible. I've been trying to get that right reverb or delay settings for vocals for awhile. Ive been also listen to mixtapes that are by pro or semi pro camps compared to the guys who are just gettin in the game or really dont have the technique down. You can hear the reverb or delays all over ther vocals,not saying that they didn do purposely. But when you hear the Jezzys,Ludas,T.I.,RickRoss mixtapes there vocals with reverb sits proper.
Still only about halfway through this thread and I have like 5 pages single-spaced notes. Anyway did you guys see the Pensado's Place ITL on reverb a few weeks ago?
This post was KILLER! Amazing tips on reverb, though these areas worry me a bit....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storyville
Start with the predelay. This is the first rhythmic element of your reverb. Let's say your bpm is 120. That means you have one quarter note every 500ms. You have one eighth note every 250 ms. You have one sixteenth note every 125ms, you have one 32nd note every 63ms. 64th notes at 32ms. In order to have the predelay trigger the reverb in a rhythmic fashion, it needs to be at one of these measures. I'd go with 32 or 63ms, because we want the reverb to still feel attached to it's source sound. Also, you notice how I rounded up? That's to put the reverb "behind the beat." This helps create a rhythmic pocket. I might even suggest moving the predelay higher a couple ms, just to make that pocket a bit more open, and so that the hit of the reverb isn't directly overtop the next part of the music.
After testing this style of obtaining a predelay, it really makes the reverb very rhythmic, almost too rhythmic for me...in that it becomes a delay in itself....its interesting, but I dont think I'd need anything near that length of a predelay. Maybe I'm totally wrong on this, but I just move the predelay enough to keep the vocal and the reverb separated a bit for clarity, not to make a rhythm out of it, but it is a cool concept. I guess Ill have to give it a few more tries and see what I like.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storyville
Now, you need to have a good idea of how each instrument will function in the song. The prominence of the instrument will determine how live the reverb should sound. Why? The reverb is going to reinforce whatever is feeding it. If you have a lead vocal generating a flat reverb, and the drums generating a bouncing reverb, your drums are going to get the attention - which can be good or bad, depending on the scenario. That being said, let's say you want the lead vocals to be the focus. Instead of throwing a compressor on your lead vocals, bus your lead vox to an aux channel, and then compress. Go to the uncompressed vocal channel, and throw an aux send to your reverb channel. This will give you controlled vocals, but live space!
The idea of having a dynamic reverb is totally cool and I've heard of it before...but have forgotten to try it since then. The only issue I see is it could be annoying to mix. Generally, with the compressor on the lead vox, if you need to make adjustments, you just move the fader and BOOM, its better. In this situation, if you move the fader of the audio track, you'll be changing how the compressor is hit. If you change the fader of the aux track with the compressor, you'll be boosting the vocal, but not the vocal that is being sent to the "dynamic delay," thus changing your "wet/dry" ratio. I guess you could send the outputs of your vocal audio track to the Aux, throw a compressor on that, then send a copy from the audio track to an aux for the dynamic delay.. then route both the dynamic delay aux and compressor aux to a final aux for "final" volume adjustments. This isn't TOO bad, but considering I can have 10-20 vocal channels, then that could be an issue. But maybe just doing it on the lead vocal would be appropriate.
On a side note, this brings about a good question: why haven't developers built in host session bpm sync abilities to the pre delay time and duration time? I mean, dont get me wrong, this math is EXTREMELY elementary, but almost ALL delay plugins have the option to sync delays by MS and 1/4 note, 1/8 note, etc...hows come reverb plugins haven't caught on to this trend? Hmmm
Never the less, AWESOME post. I need to find a few of your other posts that you did. Thanks a lot for the great info.
I know this thread is years old, but a ton of people kept talking about predelay math tables and bpm calculators. I didn't read all of it, but I searched for "60,000" and no results came up.
To anyone reading this thread, its very simple to do the math, but let me break it down first.
A lot of times, people tend to forget BPM is a ratio, or a fraction. Its beats per minute or (beat/minute).
A "beat" is synonymous with "quarter note," so you could say "quarter notes per minute (quarter notes/minute).
Since were working with the predelay, we need to be working in milliseconds...so how many milliseconds are in a minute? 60,000.
So this can be rewritten to "quarter notes per 60,000 MS" (quarter notes/60,000MS)
Now were trying to figure out the duration of a quarter note in MS here, so the fraction needs to be flipped to 60,000MS per quarter note.
So you're left with:
60,000/bpm = quarter note duration in MS at that given BPM
This will be a fraction, that when reduced, will state how many MS a quarter note at that given bpm will last. After you divide that, then finish up the extra math to solve for 8th note, 16th note etc by dividing by 2 or 4.
SO!
Our bpm is 120.
60,000/120=500MS (duration of a quarter note)
and we know this is correct because for a song to have 120 beats per minute, it must have 2 beats per second, or 1 beat per half second (.5)
If you're tempo was 150...
60,000/150 = 400 MS (duration of a quarter note)
I know this seems stupid and redundant, I just felt that I should break it down so others wouldn't need to look for delay math tables to figure out predelay times.
This post was KILLER! Amazing tips on reverb, though these areas worry me a bit....
After testing this style of obtaining a predelay, it really makes the reverb very rhythmic, almost too rhythmic for me...in that it becomes a delay in itself....its interesting, but I dont think I'd need anything near that length of a predelay. Maybe I'm totally wrong on this, but I just move the predelay enough to keep the vocal and the reverb separated a bit for clarity, not to make a rhythm out of it, but it is a cool concept. I guess Ill have to give it a few more tries and see what I like.
The idea of having a dynamic reverb is totally cool and I've heard of it before...but have forgotten to try it since then. The only issue I see is it could be annoying to mix. Generally, with the compressor on the lead vox, if you need to make adjustments, you just move the fader and BOOM, its better. In this situation, if you move the fader of the audio track, you'll be changing how the compressor is hit. If you change the fader of the aux track with the compressor, you'll be boosting the vocal, but not the vocal that is being sent to the "dynamic delay," thus changing your "wet/dry" ratio. I guess you could send the outputs of your vocal audio track to the Aux, throw a compressor on that, then send a copy from the audio track to an aux for the dynamic delay.. then route both the dynamic delay aux and compressor aux to a final aux for "final" volume adjustments. This isn't TOO bad, but considering I can have 10-20 vocal channels, then that could be an issue. But maybe just doing it on the lead vocal would be appropriate.
On a side note, this brings about a good question: why haven't developers built in host session bpm sync abilities to the pre delay time and duration time? I mean, dont get me wrong, this math is EXTREMELY elementary, but almost ALL delay plugins have the option to sync delays by MS and 1/4 note, 1/8 note, etc...hows come reverb plugins haven't caught on to this trend? Hmmm
Never the less, AWESOME post. I need to find a few of your other posts that you did. Thanks a lot for the great info.
Scratch what I said about the predelay time being too long, I mustve overlooked the part where you said you'd choose a faster settings like 32 or 63 in order for it to sound attached. 125 sounds like a delay and reverb built in together....
Wall of Sound - maybe in some respects. The overall goal is different though. I'm going for a subtle but strong reverb, one which will not result in blurring between instruments - where as Spektor was going for an orchestral sound.
Chart - nice chart. The math ain't too tough if you don't have the chart off hand.
Math - be careful with mathematics on a delay. If it's too metronomic it can have a negative effect on the music. With live drums for example, if your player is a bit behind the beat on his/her downbeats and the delay is set to tempo, you might end up with your delay actually making the track sound less cohesive. That being said, if you have a good number of instruments playing around time, but one specifically that's dead on, an perfect delay might help show the contrast around the tempo. I wouldn't say the math should EVER be the final step anywhere. The math is helpful to get you to a starting point, the ear is ALWAYS the final judge.
No Clue - Yeah, reverb is tough cause there's a whole lot of knobs that have really subtle effects. My post above is just one of countless approaches to reverb. Ultimately you find your own system. The one above is mine, and took a great deal of time to come about.
Delay vs. Reverb : Interesting what makes us choose one over the other. I find that people go to delays because reverb seems inferior: It muddies the mix/ washes the transients/ adds nothing rhythmic. Hopefully my post above will allow reverb to be a viable and exciting option in place of delay, as a well used reverb shouldn't do any of those terrible things I just mentioned. However, this is not to say that a well placed delay doesn't kick ass. I find myself hitting the reverb more than the delay, even in Hip Hop tracks.
I had worked out most of the same approach as you described. It was one of those rare moments for me where some one in the outside world actually seems to confirm my own learning! Thanks for that. The one thing I hadn't worked out properly was pre delay and your tip is most welcomed. Delay v Reverb
I believe that both used together carefully can be very rewarding if done correctly. For instance if you have a fast pre-delay to emulate a small/medium room and then use a fast delay time to reproduce a logical bounce back then it stats to sound even more realistic. Another tip would be to use a dual delay, set one side to x64 or 32 depending on the needs of the space and then set the opposite side to exactly the same setting but un-synced to the tempo to allow manual tweaking, then knock a couple of ms off! This makes the bounce back more realistic again because a room will never produce the same phase for each ear due to position of listening. Thus we keep the rhythmic musicality but also add a touch of natural reflection. I also have found that unless a sound has major bass characteristics it is normally wise to roll off the bottom end in the buss channel where the reverb sits. What I have started to do in my DAW environment is to actually set up three different send busses with each one serving a different reverb. One to compliment lower frequencies that require a live feel, one for mids and one for highs. I have found that by altering the sends individually for each frequency a really interesting and deeper controlled reverb effect can be achieved for each instruments individual performance, Then when using automation as well any of these reverbs can make an appearance and leave again to compliment appropriate frequencies as and when required. I recently decided thaty for some vocal reverb effects I am actualy going to go to specific locations and record myself singing at 3am in order to get the real thing!!!!!! I have an astounding stone arch close to me here and my local laundrette sounds fantastic for small room!!!
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Hi, I find this technique to be brilliant. It's exactly what I've been trying to achieve on my own. Only thing is, I didn't know how until I read this. I'm a newbie when it comes to audio engineering. One issue I still have though is on my vocals, I struggle with sibilance. I know that I should try to deal with that all before I add reverb; however, do to having a cheap condenser mic that doesn't really suit my voice and just using all around cheap gear to begin with, I think I've done pretty much everything in my power to control it. I can usually get it pretty tamed without reverb, but once I add the reverb, the sibilance jumps back out even worse than before... Is reverb meant to be put in a bus or send? I noticed it seems to help when I do that, but it still doesn't get rid of the sibilance enough. I even tested out my brother's stage mic which is a Shure SM58 and I still had issues with sibilance. I dunno, maybe it's nothing I can control. Maybe I just don't have the right mic... what do you guys think? I know it's a little hard for you to judge since you can't hear my recordings or see how I set things up, but if you think I need a better mic, what would you suggest for someone who's extremely sibilant? Thanks.
Hi, I find this technique to be brilliant. It's exactly what I've been trying to achieve on my own. Only thing is, I didn't know how until I read this. I'm a newbie when it comes to audio engineering. One issue I still have though is on my vocals, I struggle with sibilance. I know that I should try to deal with that all before I add reverb; however, do to having a cheap condenser mic that doesn't really suit my voice and just using all around cheap gear to begin with, I think I've done pretty much everything in my power to control it. I can usually get it pretty tamed without reverb, but once I add the reverb, the sibilance jumps back out even worse than before... Is reverb meant to be put in a bus or send? I noticed it seems to help when I do that, but it still doesn't get rid of the sibilance enough. I even tested out my brother's stage mic which is a Shure SM58 and I still had issues with sibilance. I dunno, maybe it's nothing I can control. Maybe I just don't have the right mic... what do you guys think? I know it's a little hard for you to judge since you can't hear my recordings or see how I set things up, but if you think I need a better mic, what would you suggest for someone who's extremely sibilant? Thanks.
Put the reverb on an aux input and send the vocal to it. That's how most people set it up. Try this. Insert an EQ on that aux channel before the reverb and dial down some upper frequencies with a high shelf. Or low pass filter to taste. This is totally common. The reverb shouldn't be as bright as the vocal anyway..
The verb can be as bright as you want it to be... even brighter than the vocal if that's what you want it to sound like...
I suspect that this was done with a very tight bandpass filter or a de-esser outputting "esses" only, then sent to the verb. There's some nice delay happening in there too.
Put the reverb on an aux input and send the vocal to it. That's how most people set it up. Try this. Insert an EQ on that aux channel before the reverb and dial down some upper frequencies with a high shelf. Or low pass filter to taste. This is totally common. The reverb shouldn't be as bright as the vocal anyway..
OK, I didn't realize that putting an EQ in the same aux channel before the reverb would only affect the reverb. Thank you very much!
The verb can be as bright as you want it to be... even brighter than the vocal if that's what you want it to sound like...
I suspect that this was done with a very tight bandpass filter or a de-esser outputting "esses" only, then sent to the verb. There's some nice delay happening in there too.
Well yes, it's all dependent on the mix. If its a dense dense mix.. Ill brighten the verb to make it more obvious... But on small mixes I don't want it being the star of the show.. But yes.. You can do whatever you please.
There are a few good and informative posts on my facebook page regarding some more advanced aspects of reverb. Look for posts on 9/28, 10/9 and 10/24.
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