To Dither Or Not To Dither? That Is "My" Question

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by rallycapmusic

So am i putting the dither plugin on the master fader when the project is in the multitrack stage?

Dither last. If you're gonna do some "mastering", you wanna add the dither after your final limiter (or whatever ends your "mastering" chain).

[rallycapmusic]

well i as far as a regular PT's session goes and im ready to do a bounce so the song can go to cd, do i use the dither plugin on the master fader? or say after a bounce i run the song file through PEAK or some other program for futher processing, then at THAT stage do i dither there before it goes to cd?

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by rallycapmusic

well i as far as a regular PT's session goes and im ready to do a bounce so the song can go to cd, do i use the dither plugin on the master fader? or say after a bounce i run the song file through PEAK or some other program for futher processing, then at THAT stage do i dither there before it goes to cd?

Again: add dither last. Every time, no matter how you're processing or whatever, if you need to convert a file from 24-bits to 16-bits for ANY reason, the dither comes absolutely last. After all the processing, after all the necessary sample rate conversions, etc etc.

Add dither last.

[rallycapmusic]

lol! ok ok..but i just dont want to "over" dither (if there is a such thing). so if im bouncing a file out from PT's and going to Peak or Ozone 3, does it have to be dithered before hand or skip the dithering on the bounce and just do it leaving Peak or Ozone?

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by rallycapmusic

lol! ok ok..but i just dont want to "over" dither (if there is a such thing). so if im bouncing a file out from PT's and going to Peak or Ozone 3, does it have to be dithered before hand or skip the dithering on the bounce and just do it leaving Peak or Ozone?

You only add dither once. At the very last possible stage, at the end of your chain.


BTW - "Over-dithering" will just leave you with a noisy master, and some funky resolution issues that might prove to be a pain in the ass with future file processing.

[hobson]

Originally Posted by rallycapmusic

lol! ok ok..but i just dont want to "over" dither (if there is a such thing). so if im bouncing a file out from PT's and going to Peak or Ozone 3, does it have to be dithered before hand or skip the dithering on the bounce and just do it leaving Peak or Ozone?

Originally Posted by bgrotto

You only add dither once. At the very last possible stage, at the end of your chain.

Originally Posted by bgrotto

(paraphrased) whenever you need to convert a file from 24-bits to 16-bits for ANY reason..

.

[rallycapmusic]

so let me ask you this!..if i know im going to bounce out and import my file to say Ozone3 or Peak or something, should i bounce at 24 bit-no dither. import into one of those programs and to my 16bit dither there?

[Storyville]

To get dithering, you have to get bits, and by extention, samples. Think of a recording as a film camera taking very rapid photographs. In film, you have a number of frames per second - and they move by so fast you can't actually tell that you are seeing a rapid succession of still photos. Your brain just says "hey, it's a moving image." Same thing with sound. Sample Rate is in essence the number of sonic images that occur over any given amount of time (usually per second). Therefore, a Sample Rate of 44.1kHz, means you are hearing over 44 thousand different blips of noise in one second. Bit Depth on the other hand is the sonic equivalent of resolution. This determines the quality of each sample. Generally speaking, this has a much greater effect on the overall sound quality than the sample rate.

Computers function on discrete mathmatics. This means that nothing in digital truly exists on a continous scale. Everything is based on increments, including the amplitude of any given sample. Let's say we zoom in on one sample (one 44 thousandth of a second if we go by the standard sample rate). That sample either has an amplitude of 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, etc. There is no amplitude 3.14159265. Bit Depth determines the number of numerical steps of amplitude you get in any given sample, and the overall largest value you can reach.

16 bits may look something like: 1, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16
24 bits may look something like: 1, 2, 3, 4, ...., 19, 20.


Ok, so REDUCING BIT- DEPTH

Audio CDs play at 16bits. If you are going there and you recorded in 24-bits, at some point you gotta get to 16. Bit reduction is easy. Your computer just reduces the value of each sample by the necessary percentage (I don't know what that percentage is). This is called quantization. Let's say we were going to a bit depth that required a 50% loss of numeric value. If you have a series of samples that goes: 0, 3, 6, 10, that series gets converted to: 0, 1.5, 3, 5.
But one problem: the value 1.5 does not exist. We are only working with whole numbers here. Therefore, the value of that sample experiences quantization error. Depending on how the converter functions, that value is going to either be truncated (rounded down) to "1" or rounded (rounded to the nearest integer) to "2." Either way, we do not have exactly the correct value.

In and of itself, this one instance of quantization error would be inaudible. It would just fly by too fast. However, sound functions cyclically and the way we hear is based on repeating patterns. In practice, bit reduction yields a cyclical quantization error that functions in relation to the audio content. This results in space monkeys. Weird glitchiness is heard because the exact same quantization error is occuring in the same places.

Luckily, there is a process called dithering. Dithering randomizes how quantization occurs - whether it is rounded or truncated. This randomization breaks the cyclical nature of the quantization. So rather than getting space monkeys, we essentially get white noise.

All of this occurs most prominently at the edges of black holes. Meaning at low levels of volume. Think about it. If your series of numbers is 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, and you reduce everything by 50%, you get: 2.5, 2, 1.5, 1, and .5. Truncated yields: 2, 2, 1, 1, 0. Rounding yields: 3, 2, 2, 1, 1. The quantization error, relative to the original value is a very high ratio. Five seperate values is now equal to only 3. 2/5 of your sound is now quantization error!

So dither when you fade in or out, and dither when you downgrade bit depth.

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by rallycapmusic

so let me ask you this!..if i know im going to bounce out and import my file to say Ozone3 or Peak or something, should i bounce at 24 bit-no dither. import into one of those programs and to my 16bit dither there?

Yes: dither last.

[E-Irizarry]

Ok You guys may think i AM playing just because I say some off-the-wall sh_it and because I love BBW big women and that you see all of that on my posts and my YouTube favorites, but at the end of the day, I take my craft seriously.

I am by far not extremely knowledgeable, but I know enough how to do things myself.

As long as you keep it plugged in right here, you will see that I am far from the bullshit.

Just because I am not prude, arrogant, and stoic like some of yall does not mean that I am not serious about my craft.

If I had PhillySoulMan co-sign on my sh_it and that man is a veteran of the industry, then I must be on the right track.

So fall back and K.I.M., please.

[E-Irizarry]

Por el recuerdo (for the record)....

I try my best to study up on the dons of the industry...going through the trials and tribulations....and trying to shine once I master the craft.

I know that it is natural for men to "hate". It is in the testorone to be that alpha male and to be competitive.

Just like Mike Tyson said once on a Canibus record, "Son, they been playing me all my life". I am el subestimado...I am the underdog of what I do!...I have to hold my head. Peace!

The ones who shitted on me on this thread should be ashamed because I co-signed on some of your posts before. But that is the hypocrisy of mankind. One love.

[rickrock305]

geez man, go wash your p*ssy or something


was it really that big a deal?

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by E-Irizarry

Just because I am not prude, arrogant, and stoic like some of yall does not mean that I am not serious about my craft.

If I had PhillySoulMan co-sign on my sh_it and that man is a veteran of the industry, then I must be on the right track.

Odd choice of adjectives...

Anyway, just because Philly co-signed your shit (did he, even? I didn't see that), doesn't make it right. This post:

Originally Posted by E-Irizarry

Correctomundo! Yeah, that "distortion" adds a low nivel of noise to make it sound professional. Dithering can make a clear sounding demo sound like a CD finished product after 4 band linear phase leveling and dithering.

...is so far off-base I really did think you were making a joke on the OP's inexperience. I guess you just have a bit of reading-up to do; I'm sorry I questioned your seriousness.

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by E-Irizarry

P
The ones who shitted on me on this thread should be ashamed because I co-signed on some of your posts before. But that is the hypocrisy of mankind. One love.

There's nothing hypocritical about calling somebody out on spreading misinformation, even if that person did co-sign them at one time or another. That doesn't even make sense.

Seriously, your post was so far off-base it really was kinda confusing as to whether you were teasing the OP. Again, my apologies. But I'd suggest you do a fact-check before you make those kinds of posts; or at least gracefully admit you were wrong when someone calls you out.

[E-Irizarry]

If I knew I were blatantly wrong, I would have sucked it up and owned it.
I was trying to intepret in laymen terms of what dithering means to me.

Dithering is algebra based but i didnt want to explain it in algebra. I was looking for the laymen terms to overall describe it in. And based on my experiences, the noise shaping and dithering made my material sound more professional.

So please do not ever say that sh_it again about how I didn't want to own up to my mistake. That was a pompous assumption on your part. Mind you, I never said I was right nor wrong..I put an opinion out there and apparently it is wrong and off based based on the posters of this thread.

I am human and we make mistakes. No joke....no homo either. So I am a man and you cannot undermine that.

[rickrock305]

this is hilarious!

[Storyville]

this is pointless.

Bgrotto killed this thread a while ago. Yes dither, dither once, and dither last. If you need a mathematically easy explaination of dithering, read my post above. It's good to know the basics, but really, all you need to know is what bgrotto said. Period. Thread dead.

[irthwirm]

so what your saying is dither every instrument on import then dither on the mix export and then dither on when you're done mastering... correct me if i'm wrong

[rickrock305]

what i like to do is create like 10 Aux tracks, bus all my tracks to them, then dither back and forth from 24 bits to 16. gives me that nice, vintage warm punchy noise

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by irthwirm

so what your saying is dither every instrument on import then dither on the mix export and then dither on when you're done mastering... correct me if i'm wrong

Right...and this will guarantee you a professional-sounding CD.

Just don't forget to dither your effects returns.tutt

[Chaellus]

you only need to dither when your going from 24 bit to 16..and exporting...it doesnt have to be that complicated...

[rallycapmusic]

Originally Posted by Chaellus

you only need to dither when your going from 24 bit to 16..and exporting...it doesnt have to be that complicated...

not to take away from what everyone else said but this quote seems like the simplest way to explain it all

[Jaques Beraques]

Originally Posted by bgrotto

Just don't forget to dither your effects returns.tutt

Is powr3 any good for this?

[irthwirm]

Originally Posted by rickrock305

what i like to do is create like 10 Aux tracks, bus all my tracks to them, then dither back and forth from 24 bits to 16. gives me that nice, vintage warm punchy noise

yeah i do that too!!!! But then i convert it to mp3 and convert it back to wav.... so dope. Then i also take a big old fat sh|t on my speakers to give it that extra grimey feel.

[MYAMS]

[QUOTE=E-Irizarry;3575262
So I am a man and you cannot undermine that.[/QUOTE]

u sure about that? Your descriptions are quite misleading...

[loujudson]

Originally Posted by rallycapmusic

So am i putting the dither plugin on the master fader when the project is in the multitrack stage?

I dunno, are you?

I do, the last plugin in the chain.

L

[irthwirm]

Here's a test with FL Studio going from 32 to 24

Heres the test.

A 32 bit float and 24 bit wav rendered copy, imported into the playlist to play at the same time. Both sent to a mixer track, where one is phase inverted.

Render the result to a 32 bit wav, import it to Edison and Normalize.

The result is silence, so no truncation errors or artifacts, converting from 32 bit float to 24 bit integer. Providing you recorded from a 24 bit stream to 32 bit float in the first place.

(Repeat the test using .ogg loops from the packs folder as I did before and it reveals that -144 dB noise).

Heres another but using a 32 bit with a 16 bit then a 16 bit dithered wav copy.

Render the result, import into Edison and Normalize. The result reveals the truncation errors first, then the dithering noise second. Note the dithered noise was below -80 dB.

Image-Line :: View topic - Bit Rate And Sample Rate in FL STUDIO!!??

[Pfraser]

Originally Posted by rallycapmusic

Yes, no? And if so, why?
And what if my software doesn't have a dithering option?

You only need to dither if your project is completely computer based digital, Ie all the instruments, samples, synths etc. That is because there could be instances of complete digital silence in your project that may not be noticeable. I suppose it could also be used if your project is analog but chopped to shit.

If you have analog recordings that are consistent throughout your project then what is the point of adding noise when everything you've recorded already has noise. Technically you could record a microphone recording nothing and use that as your dither noise as the microphone has noise, the mic pre has noise, and the converter even has noise.