"Funky Drummer" Production Techniques

[jedilaw]

As awsome as the drumming itself is in James Brown's "The Funky Drummer", I'm as much interested in the production techniques as the actual playing.

Does anyone know any specifics about the FX chain that was used on those drums during the break, or any of the other relevant recording techniques? Those are some of the hardest drums...ever. I'd love to know more about getting the same kind of sound from my own drums (without just directly sampling that loop...which ain't cheap nowadays).

[phillysoulman]

Originally Posted by jedilaw

As awsome as the drumming itself is in James Brown's "The Funky Drummer", I'm as much interested in the production techniques as the actual playing.

Does anyone know any specifics about the FX chain that was used on those drums during the break, or any of the other relevant recording techniques? Those are some of the hardest drums...ever. I'd love to know more about getting the same kind of sound from my own drums (without just directly sampling that loop...which ain't cheap nowadays).

Crappy studio,no special efx. nothing special...just great funky drumming.

[jedilaw]

Originally Posted by phillysoulman

Crappy studio,no special efx. nothing special...just great funky drumming.

Man, PSM, when I saw that you had replied I just knew you were gonna bring the straight dope.

I know there's not like tons of reverb, or any kind of hi-tech stuff going on, but they pretty clearly tweaked the compression settings and the EQ. Just between the regular part of the song and the drum break there's a distinct shift in the sound that is more than just Clyde hitting harder. Do you know what kind of compression approach they were taking?

[phillysoulman]

Originally Posted by jedilaw

Man, PSM, when I saw that you had replied I just knew you were gonna bring the straight dope.

I know there's not like tons of reverb, or any kind of hi-tech stuff going on, but they pretty clearly tweaked the compression settings and the EQ. Just between the regular part of the song and the drum break there's a distinct shift in the sound that is more than just Clyde hitting harder. Do you know what kind of compression approach they were taking?

James Brown was not a "techincal person" per se and he recorded in many studios that were not up to par.
There just might have been s studio somewhere in the Carolinas that was available on short notice and he whipped the fellas into shape,went in,got a level,cut,got a copy and split.

Fred Wesley,JBs trombonist and band leader is a good friend of mine,so Ill call and ask the specifics on that one and then Ill post the results.

[PettyCash]

Not really related to this thread but...

I have engineered for and sat in on vast amounts of reggae sessions with old school cats. A lot of the "old timer" artists/musicians don't really care for wasting time on technical matters. As far as they are concerned its the engineer's job to fuss over the specifics. They are there to just focus on giving a great performance. In my experiences, all they really seem to give a damn about and fuss over the most was getting a great headphone mix . A lot of the greatness you hear on those old time records was captured pretty much all in the moment, with what ever gear they had.

Honestly, I have a lot of respect for old school engineers and producers of all genres of music, and I always pop by their studios whenever I get the chance and listen to whatever knowledge they can drop on me. A lot of guys (more like kids) these days complain about the little bit of gear they got, and what they cant do with it, thinking that there must be some type of magical devices out there to make amatuers sound great, and totally miss the potential of what their current rigs can do. Especially in comparison to what was typically available to the small time dreamers starting out "back in the day". Those same small timers grew up to make not only kick ass records, but records that ended up becoming timeless classics. Why? Because they not only had an appreciation for the art, but also an appreciation for their tools. We (especially north americans) today take too much for granted.

[jedilaw]

Originally Posted by phillysoulman

James Brown was not a "techincal person" per se and he recorded in many studios that were not up tp par.
There just might have been s studio somewhere in the Carolinas that was available on short notice and he whipped the fellas into shape,went in,got a level,cut,got a copy and split.

Fred Wesley,JBs trombonist and band leader is a good friend of mine,so Ill call and ask the specifics on that one and then Ill post the results.

Thanks for that, PSM. Oh, and when you get a chance to speak with him, tell him he's my favorite trombone player ever. Dude is a monster, straight up.

[phillysoulman]

Originally Posted by jedilaw

Thanks for that, PSM. Oh, and when you get a chance to speak with him, tell him he's my favorite trombone player ever. Dude is a monster, straight up.

Anytime.
Fred and his wife Gwen have been friends for eons.
gwen is a singer originally from Philly and they have livedin South Carolina for quiye a long time.
As you know, Fred was the man responsible for GCs Horny Horns.

[jedilaw]

Originally Posted by phillysoulman

Anytime.
Fred and his wife Gwen have been friends for eons.
gwen is a singer originally from Philly and they have livedin South Carolina for quiye a long time.
As you know, Fred was the man responsible for GCs Horny Horns.

Yeah, Fred and Maceo added a lot toParliament/Funkadelic, Bootsy's Rubber Band, the Brides of Funkenstein, GC's whole empire.

[phillysoulman]

Originally Posted by jedilaw

Yeah, Fred and Maceo added a lot toParliament/Funkadelic, Bootsy's Rubber Band, the Brides of Funkenstein, GC's whole empire.

You might want to check out Fred's great book for the real 411 on what really went down in both camps.

[jayfrigo]

I mixed a record with Clyde Stubblefield drumming a couple years ago, and damn, what a monster. Whatever he plays just grooves so hard. He hardly hits a tom, and doesn't like to use much ride cymbal. He also overdubbed some Conga, Bongo, and tambourine parts, and again, just plays exactly the right thing with a feel to die for. And he's so solid. He's a freakin' metronome.

OH... this was supposed to be about production techniques from back in the day? Old mics - not too many of them, analog tape, plate and chamber reverb, and don't clean up every little piece of human imperfection. It's not that complicated really. You just get out of the way of the music. The performances take precedence over technical concerns.

[superjc]

One of my favorite songs ever... I've read James Brown's Autobiography and while he is a perfectionist on the music side, he didn't mention anything about studio gear/stuff. Amazing how the Funky Drummer kick/snare/hat have been chopped up, slammed, and put into many drum machine roms and jungle/drum n bass sample libraries songs!

[salomonander]

Originally Posted by phillysoulman

Crappy studio,no special efx. nothing special...just great funky drumming.

now that's some true BS.
but there is a research paper by questlove (roots) on that topic....google it.

[phillysoulman]

Originally Posted by salomonander

now that's some true BS.
but there is a research paper by questlove (roots) on that topic....google it.

Im twice as old as Ahmir and obviously from a historical and chronological perspective, I have "been there"..have you??
Would you care to challenge me on this info??
.

[phillysoulman]

BTW..my old friend Fred Wesley's wonderful autobiography is called "Hit Me Fred..Recollections Of A Sideman"

[STARSKI]

Originally Posted by phillysoulman

Im twice as old as Ahmir and obviously from a historical and chronological perspective, I have "been there"..have you??
Would you care to challenge me on this info??
.

Chuuuch! haha

[jedilaw]

Originally Posted by salomonander

now that's some true BS.
but there is a research paper by questlove (roots) on that topic....google it.

Now this is just my opinion, but to me it's kind of ironic for a drummer who really isn't all that funky himself (?uestlove) to be holding forth on how "The Funky Drummer" was made. Don't get me wrong, I like a lot of the Roots' albums, but I'm never sitting there listening and thinking to myself "Damn! This drummer is soooooo funky!"

[phillysoulman]

Originally Posted by jedilaw

Now this is just my opinion, but to me it's kind of ironic for a drummer who really isn't all that funky himself (?uestlove) to be holding forth on how "The Funky Drummer" was made. Don't get me wrong, I like a lot of the Roots' albums, but I'm never sitting there listening and thinking to myself "Damn! This drummer is soooooo funky!"

You took the words right out of my mouth.
?uestlove,imho is like an Af Am Charlie Watts of the Stones.
Not exactly a "funky drummer" by any stretch.

[jedilaw]

Originally Posted by phillysoulman

You took the words right out of my mouth.
?uestlove,imho is like an Af Am Charlie Watts of the Stones.
Not exactly a "funky drummer" by any stretch.

That's a pretty good comparison, actually. They both have a really good feel and sense of time, just not...funky.

It says something about the musicianship in Hip-Hop, the fact that ?uestlove gets so much attention for actually, you know, playing real drums. Again, not hatin' on him (just statin', LOL), but I can name so many drummers who are funkier: Clyde Stubblefield; Jabo Starks; Idris Mohammad; Alan Evans (Soulive); Zigaboo Modeliste; Mike Clark; Melvin Parker; Sheila E; Prince...hell, even Stewart Copeland in a white-boy-reggae kind of way. If there were more real drummers in Hip-Hop, ?uestlove wouldn't be getting so much attention.

[excellrec]

Originally Posted by jedilaw

That's a pretty good comparison, actually. They both have a really good feel and sense of time, just not...funky.

It says something about the musicianship in Hip-Hop, the fact that ?uestlove gets so much attention for actually, you know, playing real drums. Again, not hatin' on him (just statin', LOL), but I can name so many drummers who are funkier: Clyde Stubblefield; Jabo Starks; Idris Mohammad; Alan Evans (Soulive); Zigaboo Modeliste; Mike Clark; Melvin Parker; Sheila E; Prince...hell, even Stewart Copeland in a white-boy-reggae kind of way. If there were more real drummers in Hip-Hop, ?uestlove wouldn't be getting so much attention.

On the same token though, who really gives a shit about trying to prove that there is or isn't less technical musician competency in hip-hop?

[beat you down]

you guys

WHY is this whole musicianship thing so important.

if you keep looking for that type of stuff in hip hop...
good luck!

looking back at 20+ years of consuming hip hop... i can't think of any hip hop albums with non edited non looped extraordinary performances by extraordinary musicians. (other than sampled)
but... that's because the genre doesn't need to depend on that.

[jedilaw]

Originally Posted by excellrec

On the same token though, who really gives a shit about trying to prove that there is or isn't less technical musician competency in hip-hop?

As a general rule, I don't. It's not a genre focused on musicianship per se (which is not at all the same as saying it isn't music). BUT, given the adulation aimed at ?uestlove, the issue of musicianship naturally comes up, because only a genre with a lack of actual live drummers would spend so much time being amazed by his playing. It's kind of like the attention that Scott Storch gets for actually knowing how to play a piano/keyboard: he's only notable because that skillset is relatively unusual in Hip-Hop. And don't get me started on bass playing. Quick: someone name me a Hip-Hop bassist. Can't, can you?

This is not a complaint about Hip-Hop. I've been listening to it since the begining (and no, motherf00kers, that doesn't mean 1994...more like late 70s/early 80s), and I have a lot of love for the genre. But that doesn't mean that there is, on the whole, any great level of skill with instruments in Hip-Hop.

[phillysoulman]

Originally Posted by jedilaw

As a general rule, I don't. It's not a genre focused on musicianship per se (which is not at all the same as saying it isn't music). BUT, given the adulation aimed at ?uestlove, the issue of musicianship naturally comes up, because only a genre with a lack of actual live drummers would spend so much time being amazed by his playing. It's kind of like the attention that Scott Storch gets for actually knowing how to play a piano/keyboard: he's only notable because that skillset is relatively unusual in Hip-Hop. And don't get me started on bass playing. Quick: someone name me a Hip-Hop bassist. Can't, can you?

This is not a complaint about Hip-Hop. I've been listening to it since the begining (and no, motherf00kers, that doesn't mean 1994...more like late 70s/early 80s), and I have a lot of love for the genre. But that doesn't mean that there is, on the whole, any great level of skill with instruments in Hip-Hop.

hey Jed,
No truer words were ever spoken.

I mentioned in another thread that when listening to a live track recently recorded at my studio, the son of a well known Philly singing group member was AMAZED that the guys played the song ALL THE WAY THROUGH!!
He was REALLY AMAZED!!!
This guy wants to be a produer,can you believe that??

Re ?uest and Storch..they were both in the original Roots lineup,so that tells you something,doesnt it??
Although Hub,the original bass player is pretty good.
Hes not in the group any more,though.

Im an old friend of ?quests dad and when he told me one day that his son had a new group called the Roots,I wished him well.

Re Storch...WAYYYYY over rated..gimme a freekin break!!
No one in Philly wanted to use him as a session musician.
He just couldnt cut it...nobody liked him or his attitude..so he left town.
Jut lucky....for a hot minute.

[terrytee]

Plenty of work in west coast, traditionally inot a sample based genre, has had many great musicians. Maybe no one felt it was that necessary to point it out or even such a big deal. Mc Eiht's LP's we come strapped & death threats (RIAA certified Platinum) had plenty of keyboards & outstanding funky pianos from of William Zimmerman. And in my book, & many others, would be seen as classics'.

[terrytee]

Originally Posted by phillysoulman

Re Storch...WAYYYYY over rated..gimme a freekin break!!
No one in Philly wanted to use him as a session musician.
He just couldnt cut it...nobody liked him or his attitude..so he left town.
Jut lucky....for a hot minute.

Don't forget the Philly crack bitch killer that is Schooly D, Scott did keys for the original pioneer, some say the true inventor, of gangster rapp on the 94 LP Welcome to America. Very underrated album and worth a listen.

[Methlab]

Originally Posted by jedilaw

Now this is just my opinion, but to me it's kind of ironic for a drummer who really isn't all that funky himself (?uestlove) to be holding forth on how "The Funky Drummer" was made. Don't get me wrong, I like a lot of the Roots' albums, but I'm never sitting there listening and thinking to myself "Damn! This drummer is soooooo funky!"

I agree man. I have always loved great drum breaks, and it is wild how about nobody can play them right nowadays. They all say they can, but when it gets down to it, they just can not make it feel right.

The drummer from the Meters really takes it up a few levels in sissy strut. That is is one groove I never get sick of playing (if the drummer can hang).

[phillysoulman]

Originally Posted by Methlab

I agree man. I have always loved great drum breaks, and it is wild how about nobody can play them right nowadays. They all say they can, but when it gets down to it, they just can not make it feel right.

The drummer from the Meters really takes it up a few levels in sissy strut. That is is one groove I never get sick of playing (if the drummer can hang).

Also,Mandrill's drummer is awesome

[jedilaw]

Originally Posted by phillysoulman

Also,Mandrill's drummer is awesome

True dat. I just got into Mandrill after coming across one of their songs in a funk compilation.

If somebody wants to really see, once and for all, what live Hip-Hop could sound like, how far it could go, they ought to spring for a session with Bernard Purdie and Chuck Rainey, hell maybe throw Bob James or George Duke in on keys, with Maceo Parker and Fred Wesley for horns. Those cats are always getting sampled by Hip Hop artists, so obviously what they can do musically is suited to the genre. Or, more accurately, the genre is built around what they did (and do) musically.

For that matter, pay the Mizell brothers to come in and oversee the session.

If you really think about it, what would be more expensive: paying for clearance on a sample from some famous soul jazz cut, or paying for a session with those same cats?

[paultools]

We'd need a good guitar player... LOL right PSM???

[phillysoulman]

Originally Posted by jedilaw

True dat. I just got into Mandrill after coming across one of their songs in a funk compilation.

If somebody wants to really see, once and for all, what live Hip-Hop could sound like, how far it could go, they ought to spring for a session with Bernard Purdie and Chuck Rainey, hell maybe throw Bob James or George Duke in on keys, with Maceo Parker and Fred Wesley for horns. Those cats are always getting sampled by Hip Hop artists, so obviously what they can do musically is suited to the genre. Or, more accurately, the genre is built around what they did (and do) musically.

For that matter, pay the Mizell brothers to come in and oversee the session.

If you really think about it, what would be more expensive: paying for clearance on a sample from some famous soul jazz cut, or paying for a session with those same cats?

I had George Duke on my last Niecy cd...one word..awesome.
George came in at 11 am..and Stevie Wonder around 8pm both in the same day over at Encore in Burbank

[phillysoulman]

Originally Posted by paultools

We'd need a good guitar player... LOL right PSM???

You Paul..we gotta hook up soon.eh???