Making a "beat" versus making a full song

[jedilaw]

Question for all the beat makers: when you are putting together a beat, do you do it as a fully arranged song, or do you create the intro, verse, bridge and chorus without putting it together? What do people look for in a demo, a set of looped measures or complete songs?

Thanks in advance...

[beat you down]

depends... for hip hop? i used to just pass loops... a seasoned mc will be able to tell if the beat is hot after one bar.

if you're after rap/r+b/pop placements... whole finished "songs".

[tonymission]

Originally Posted by jedilaw

Question for all the beat makers: when you are putting together a beat, do you do it as a fully arranged song, or do you create the intro, verse, bridge and chorus without putting it together? What do people look for in a demo, a set of looped measures or complete songs?

Thanks in advance...

You put everything together into a "song" as you say. Just without lyrics ... or lyrics, depending on if you're demoing a hook or whatnot (not very often in hip hop (for me); more rnb).

A lot of times, with my engineer hat on, I have guys ask me to "make the verse using just these 8 bars right here" or "use this 8 bars here for the second part of the verse and delete that part all together" or whatever. Basically asking me to play around with the lego blocks on an already 2-tracked beat. So when I'm arranging tracks, I like to think of it in pieces like that and predict what I think an artist would generally like to have ... if it changes after that, fine.

Once someone buys a beat from us, they're allowed to hack it up a bit if they want to. Obviously having the multi-tracks on hand ... but more often than not, that's not how your "transaction" is going to go. Everyone talks about trackin beats and this and that but rappers generally just want a CD with the beat on it and I can't say I argue with them to take the multi-track (in certain cases) ... Lots of guys never take the time/pay the money to get anything really mixed anyway. Straight to the strip club ...

[terrytee]

Don't always do a complete structure but i get the ground work in so it's not a case of adding production if vocals are to be laid. It's just a case of arrangement.

[Nukes]

if i have an idea of the actual songwriting in my head i will arrange the entire track, but if it is just a musical idea i tend to create a track skeleton with a basic arrangement. for example...

intro 8
verse 16
chorus 8
verse 16
chorus 8
bridge 8
chorus 16
outro

Nukes

[phillysoulman]

Just yesterday the son of a well known Philly vocal group member came to the studio with his dad.
Son makes beats and is a wanna be producer.
I played a song that we recorded last week with all live musicians, most of the cats from "back in the day" who all worked on the Philly hits.
So son says..."man, are you telling me that those dudes played the whole song straight thru from beginning to end"??
He just couldnt get over it.
Maybe he should get a gig at Mickey Ds.

[azwun25]

Originally Posted by phillysoulman

Just yesterday the son of a well known Philly vocal group member came to the studio with his dad.
Son makes beats and is a wanna be producer.
I played a song that we recorded last week with all live musicians, most of the cats from "back in the day" who all worked on the Philly hits.
So son says..."man, are you telling me that those dudes played the whole song straight thru from beginning to end"??
He just couldnt get over it.
Maybe he should get a gig at Mickey Ds.

Damn thats cold Philly..but...I like it

[Zionpro]

Originally Posted by phillysoulman

Just yesterday the son of a well known Philly vocal group member came to the studio with his dad.
Son makes beats and is a wanna be producer.
I played a song that we recorded last week with all live musicians, most of the cats from "back in the day" who all worked on the Philly hits.
So son says..."man, are you telling me that those dudes played the whole song straight thru from beginning to end"??
He just couldnt get over it.
Maybe he should get a gig at Mickey Ds.

That's just sad...I mean can you blame the kid or do you blame the dad for not beating some real musical understanding into the kid's head and soul (considering the cloth from which he was cut)...shit maybe the kid should be hog-tied and left in your studio for a few months until he has a clue...I wouldn't wish a MICKEY Ds career on my worse enemy...

[phillysoulman]

Originally Posted by Zionpro

That's just sad...I mean can you blame the kid or do you blame the dad for not beating some real musical understanding into the kid's head and soul (considering the cloth from which he was cut)...shit maybe the kid should be hog-tied and left in your studio for a few months until he has a clue...I wouldn't wish a MICKEY Ds career on my worse enemy...

The son is a good kid and Im willing to show him the ropes...if he'll listen.
Thing is..son is 23 years old, but hey..its never too late.
But maybe Burger King is taking appsif nothing transpires.

[termtables]

Originally Posted by Nukes

if i have an idea of the actual songwriting in my head i will arrange the entire track, but if it is just a musical idea i tend to create a track skeleton with a basic arrangement. for example...

intro 8
verse 16
chorus 8
verse 16
chorus 8
bridge 8
chorus 16
outro

Nukes

do this too.

[Rednose]

Originally Posted by Nukes

if i have an idea of the actual songwriting in my head i will arrange the entire track, but if it is just a musical idea i tend to create a track skeleton with a basic arrangement. for example...

intro 8
verse 16
chorus 8
verse 16
chorus 8
bridge 8
chorus 16
outro

Nukes

That sounds right to me.
I have a rap client that uses 12 bar verses in almost all his songs.
I asked him to bring in songs that he liked and I analysed them for him.
All were 16 bar verses, but he still insists on 12 bar verses.

[phillysoulman]

Originally Posted by Rednose

That sounds right to me.
I have a rap client that uses 12 bar verses in almost all his songs.
I asked him to bring in songs that he liked and I analysed them for him.
All were 16 bar verses, but he still insists on 12 bar verses.

Maybe he was a Delta blues singer in a former life.

[tonymission]

There's no rule on 16 bar verses... I get bored of them honestly.

I like changing shit up. 12s and 8s and mixing of this with that ...

Stale arrangement makes stale tracks...

[Lipps]

If you are shoppin beats, 8 bars is tooo long of an intro. Especially if you are playing/shopping to a&r's. you get about 30-45 seconds per track of listening time so if in the verse the beat doesn't come in hard as hell.....

if you got a hook on there you need to start with the hook. Don't make em wait 8 bars then 16 bars ( a min. and 15 sec) to hear the hook. Your track half of the time won't make it that far.

[jedilaw]

Thanks for all the input, y'all.

Who knows, Tony, I might drop a lil' sumptin' in your e-mail box, see what you think...

[reinvention.of.man]

If your track can make a crow do this you good! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9PseM_Z9cw

[tonymission]

Originally Posted by jedilaw

Thanks for all the input, y'all.

Who knows, Tony, I might drop a lil' sumptin' in your e-mail box, see what you think...

Send away.. It's a little backed up right now but I'm about to check em out soon (gotten some pms about this)!

[PoetED]

Too be honest with you man their really is no formula to follow. Everybody in the industry is different. There is some similarities to how certain people may work yea but at the end of the day everybody is their own person. Now I haven't been producing that long so it may seem I don't know what I'm talking about what I've come to learn is that it's all about how you feel. In the past their may have been certain formula's to follow but it is now 2008. Music has change so much and for the good. So I would suggest just go with what you feel. If you feel like arranging a full song to shop around go with it. People will recognize the good whether is a loop or it's a fully arranged track. People will recognize more of your passion and that's what's really most important. When people know that you believe in your music then to the up most fullest then they are willing to open their ears wider.

[phillysoulman]

Originally Posted by PoetED

Too be honest with you man their really is no formula to follow. Everybody in the industry is different. There is some similarities to how certain people may work yea but at the end of the day everybody is their own person. Now I haven't been producing that long so it may seem I don't know what I'm talking about what I've come to learn is that it's all about how you feel. In the past their may have been certain formula's to follow but it is now 2008. Music has change so much and for the good. So I would suggest just go with what you feel. If you feel like arranging a full song to shop around go with it. People will recognize the good whether is a loop or it's a fully arranged track. People will recognize more of your passion and that's what's really most important. When people know that you believe in your music then to the up most fullest then they are willing to open their ears wider.

thumbsupthumbsup

[irthwirm]

well look at lil waynes "a milli" track. Dope beat but damn it's gets old after the first couple of times of hearing it. It's like a 1 bar loop with maybe a lil drum switch up every so often and that shit went big. I guarantee if you tried to shop that beat to an a&r it would have gotten trashed.

[MYAMS]

Originally Posted by irthwirm

well look at lil waynes "a milli" track. Dope beat but damn it's gets old after the first couple of times of hearing it. It's like a 1 bar loop with maybe a lil drum switch up every so often and that shit went big. I guarantee if you tried to shop that beat to an a&r it would have gotten trashed.

naw I disagree its a loop but a pretty f-ing ill one. Weezy on it is what made the track and some A&R's might have slept on it but its still cooler than your typical minimal beat.

[tonymission]

Originally Posted by irthwirm

well look at lil waynes "a milli" track. Dope beat but damn it's gets old after the first couple of times of hearing it. It's like a 1 bar loop with maybe a lil drum switch up every so often and that shit went big. I guarantee if you tried to shop that beat to an a&r it would have gotten trashed.

I agree. The beat is 'whatever' but it's a perfect example of relationships and knowing the right people.

A&Rs and all that are a WAY distant second place when it comes to placing beats. If you can get in front of the artists, or they know you got some heat, or something to legitimize a quick listening, it's so much easier to get beats to bigger cats. It's not so much the quality of beats, because these guys get SO SO SO SO SO many, but if they got a face behind the beat and a head bob and can be properly introduced to it. So much shit gets recorded "right here, right now" that if you in the right spot, with teh right beats, then you gonna get cats ****in with you.

I've seen bang work (briefly, as the story goes) and he's hardly a mozart on the keys over there or somethin ya know. But he's been around the block and if he got somethin potentially catchy, it's gonna pop.

[phillysoulman]

Originally Posted by tonymission

I agree. The beat is 'whatever' but it's a perfect example of relationships and knowing the right people.

A&Rs and all that are a WAY distant second place when it comes to placing beats. If you can get in front of the artists, or they know you got some heat, or something to legitimize a quick listening, it's so much easier to get beats to bigger cats. It's not so much the quality of beats, because these guys get SO SO SO SO SO many, but if they got a face behind the beat and a head bob and can be properly introduced to it. So much shit gets recorded "right here, right now" that if you in the right spot, with teh right beats, then you gonna get cats ****in with you.

I've seen bang work (briefly, as the story goes) and he's hardly a mozart on the keys over there or somethin ya know. But he's been around the block and if he got somethin potentially catchy, it's gonna pop.

thumbsupthumbsup

[P3anut]

Originally Posted by phillysoulman

Just yesterday the son of a well known Philly vocal group member came to the studio with his dad.
Son makes beats and is a wanna be producer.
I played a song that we recorded last week with all live musicians, most of the cats from "back in the day" who all worked on the Philly hits.
So son says..."man, are you telling me that those dudes played the whole song straight thru from beginning to end"??
He just couldnt get over it.
Maybe he should get a gig at Mickey Ds.

Man ain't that a shame you can't really blame it on him its not his fault
ITS YOUTUBE lol and souljah boy

[phillysoulman]

Ive been seriously thinking about starting some classes (on a limited basis)on how to record live instruments,with miked up amps, miking drums,horns,string section, percussion,REAL vocal sessions..etc.

[Storyville]

Beats are EVERYWHERE. I literally have people tossing beat cds at me (this actually happened once). Once a week on myspace, there's someone who wants to collab, two out of three shows, I get a beat cd.

So here's what I'm hearing in order of importance:

1) Does the beat have personality. I don't care if it "bangs", I don't care if it's this that or the other. I just want it to have life, intent, something in side of it that I can pull out.

2) Does the beat go anywhere, or does it stay in the same place. Quite honestly, a looping beat is generally lack luster. So YES, ARRANGEMENT matters.

3) How is the sound quality. I don't need beats that are up to Gearslutz standards, but they can't sound peaky and annoying, or vastly disproportionate in balance. Why? Because I know the jackass that printed it this way is not going to give me a multi-track that I can re-mix.


Other note: Philly, if you do decide to start teaching classes I'd attend.

[tonymission]

Originally Posted by Storyville

Beats are EVERYWHERE. I literally have people tossing beat cds at me (this actually happened once). Once a week on myspace, there's someone who wants to collab, two out of three shows, I get a beat cd.

So here's what I'm hearing in order of importance:

1) Does the beat have personality. I don't care if it "bangs", I don't care if it's this that or the other. I just want it to have life, intent, something in side of it that I can pull out.

2) Does the beat go anywhere, or does it stay in the same place. Quite honestly, a looping beat is generally lack luster. So YES, ARRANGEMENT matters.

3) How is the sound quality. I don't need beats that are up to Gearslutz standards, but they can't sound peaky and annoying, or vastly disproportionate in balance. Why? Because I know the jackass that printed it this way is not going to give me a multi-track that I can re-mix.


Other note: Philly, if you do decide to start teaching classes I'd attend.

Good post. Spot on.

PSM I would love to learn some stuff about that. I'm oft-quoted as saying "if they make me mic some shit up, im ****ed". Ahh, the lowly-rap engineer.

Youtube for us non-Philly cats? Or you gonna find a way to tax us? :P

[phillysoulman]

Originally Posted by tonymission

Good post. Spot on.

PSM I would love to learn some stuff about that. I'm oft-quoted as saying "if they make me mic some shit up, im ****ed". Ahh, the lowly-rap engineer.

Youtube for us non-Philly cats? Or you gonna find a way to tax us? :P

Yo Tony..something tells me that you are a dope engineer..a llittle birdie told me.
But Ill be willing to help in any way that I can.
I love recording live music, as its how "I done grow'd up"
You tube is ok but I love to do it right there on the set.

[E-Irizarry]

Originally Posted by phillysoulman

Just yesterday the son of a well known Philly vocal group member came to the studio with his dad.
Son makes beats and is a wanna be producer.
I played a song that we recorded last week with all live musicians, most of the cats from "back in the day" who all worked on the Philly hits.
So son says..."man, are you telling me that those dudes played the whole song straight thru from beginning to end"??
He just couldnt get over it.
Maybe he should get a gig at Mickey Ds.

Originally Posted by phillysoulman

The son is a good kid and Im willing to show him the ropes...if he'll listen.
Thing is..son is 23 years old, but hey..its never too late.
But maybe Burger King is taking appsif nothing transpires.

Damn, PSM! You take no hostages I see I see.

[phillysoulman]

Originally Posted by E-Irizarry

Damn, PSM! You take no hostages I see I see.

Nope..I call it like I see it.
Music changes all the time and I believe that people should be prepared for those changes and learn all they can beyond "making beats" or 2 bar loops.
That to me is just "amateur shit" by comparison.