FYI: a sampler IS an INSTRUMENT

[jedilaw]

There have been more than a few debates/digressions/rants lately about whether people should stop sampling and learn a "real" instrument. The truth of the matter is this: a sampler is an instrument. It takes musical skill to select the right sample, edit it/chop it correctly, apply it effectively in your arrangement, mix it the right way (which can be done on the sampler itself, e.g. the MPC), et cetera.

Getting one's underoos in a twist about the use of samples misses the point. Sampling in and of itself is like anything else: in the hands of most, it sucks. In the hands of a talented few, it can be amazing. Guitars are the same way: most people wouldn't be able to do anything musical with a guitar if their lives depended on it. A talented minority of people can do something with that guitar.

Puffy doesn't suck because sampling sucks, Puffy sucks because, well, he's Puffy. He thinks he's making something when he buys an entire track from Sting, or from Jimi Page. That's not the fault of sampling, it's the fault of Puffy. Listen to someone like The Bomb Squad, The Dust Brothers, Prince Paul, Premiere, Marly Marl, Dilla, or DJ Shadow if you think sampling is the issue. It's not. Skill and talent, as always, are what matter, not the tool being used.

[larrygates]

It's hard to COMPLETELY agree with you. But I do "agree" with you on the point of samplers are TALENTED arrangers. When I say the word arranger I think I really mean that they are able to find the right energy in certain parts of a song and they understand how to build on that in certain areas.

TurnTables = Instrument (I can't play them)
Guitar = Instrument
Piano etc . . . I'd even say a SAMPLER is an instrument, BUT

The ability to TRULY harmonize homogenize multiple INSTRUMENTS / Skill sets / People / Performers / Players to make a moving piece of hip/hop Pop r&b etc has a lot more to do with organizing it all and a vision of the end while still moving through what gets you to that point.

Basically it's too hard to qualify what all that really is, basically just do whatever feels right and if someone calls a SAMPLER wack, hates on them, doesn't credit them, So Be It.

There are worse things that have happened throughout time (let alone a SAMPLERS life).

Originally Posted by jedilaw

There have been more than a few debates/digressions/rants lately about whether people should stop sampling and learn a "real" instrument. The truth of the matter is this: a sampler is an instrument. It takes musical skill to select the right sample, edit it/chop it correctly, apply it effectively in your arrangement, mix it the right way (which can be done on the sampler itself, e.g. the MPC), et cetera.

Getting one's underoos in a twist about the use of samples misses the point. Sampling in and of itself is like anything else: in the hands of most, it sucks. In the hands of a talented few, it can be amazing. Guitars are the same way: most people wouldn't be able to do anything musical with a guitar if their lives depended on it. A talented minority of people can do something with that guitar.

Puffy doesn't suck because sampling sucks, Puffy sucks because, well, he's Puffy. He thinks he's making something when he buys an entire track from Sting, or from Jimi Page. That's not the fault of sampling, it's the fault of Puffy. Listen to someone like The Bomb Squad, The Dust Brothers, Prince Paul, Premiere, Marly Marl, Dilla, or DJ Shadow if you think sampling is the issue. It's not. Skill and talent, as always, are what matter, not the tool being used.

[brian_delizza]

I think its all in how you use it...


If I load up a sample that is a 4 bar loop and just step sequence it in, is that really the same skill as playing an instrument? Probably not.

However, If I take a horn stab, transpose it across the pads, and play a whole new melody or phrase out of one note, thats when I start viewing it as an instrument.

I consider samplers instruments for me, but they may not be in the hands of someone else, I guess its all how you use/view it.

but of course just my $.02

[jedilaw]

I think we're on the same page, e.g. that it depends on how one uses it. But consider this: no one doubts that a drum machine is an instrument, even if all one is doing is punching in the pattern on a step sequencer. Step sequencing samples is no less musical, and no more so. Besides, if we're going to talk about step entry, it seems to me that people using the piano roll function in most sequencers wouldn't be "musicians", and I think a fair few people would object to that point.

[brian_delizza]

I was talking more about triggering the start of a loop by just entering it in a step sequencer, not programming a melody.

Kind of like if someone didn't have the coordination to hit the pad once at the beginning of a 4 bar loop. I'd say thats not really using it as an instrument, its a music creation tool for making songs.

Its kind of like how some people play the saw, or the spoons. I think its defined by how you use it.

[Touchmaster]

being good at sampling is difficult. Which is partly why I don't do much of it.

[Teo Macero]

Fantastic book on Hip-Hop Sampling:
Amazon.com: Making Beats: The Art of Sample-Based Hip-Hop (Music Culture): Joseph G. Schloss: Books


I actually wrote my thesis on Hip-Hop Sampling...it's in Dutch, though :)

[illacov]

And....

well maybe I would be excited if I still sampled.

Left it alone back in like 2003. Moved onto live instruments NEVER turned back. Still rock the drum machines, drum playback modules that play samples of drums etc... But I stopped digging crates, sampling other people's work all that.

Dunno, just broke thru to a whole new plateu once I got my hands on studio players. Feel like a kid in a candy store every time I got a whole band tracking my compositions. LOVE IT!!

Peace
Illumination

Originally Posted by jedilaw

There have been more than a few debates/digressions/rants lately about whether people should stop sampling and learn a "real" instrument. The truth of the matter is this: a sampler is an instrument. It takes musical skill to select the right sample, edit it/chop it correctly, apply it effectively in your arrangement, mix it the right way (which can be done on the sampler itself, e.g. the MPC), et cetera.

Getting one's underoos in a twist about the use of samples misses the point. Sampling in and of itself is like anything else: in the hands of most, it sucks. In the hands of a talented few, it can be amazing. Guitars are the same way: most people wouldn't be able to do anything musical with a guitar if their lives depended on it. A talented minority of people can do something with that guitar.

Puffy doesn't suck because sampling sucks, Puffy sucks because, well, he's Puffy. He thinks he's making something when he buys an entire track from Sting, or from Jimi Page. That's not the fault of sampling, it's the fault of Puffy. Listen to someone like The Bomb Squad, The Dust Brothers, Prince Paul, Premiere, Marly Marl, Dilla, or DJ Shadow if you think sampling is the issue. It's not. Skill and talent, as always, are what matter, not the tool being used.

[gearaddict]

Originally Posted by brian_delizza

I think its all in how you use it...


If I load up a sample that is a 4 bar loop and just step sequence it in, is that really the same skill as playing an instrument? Probably not.

However, If I take a horn stab, transpose it across the pads, and play a whole new melody or phrase out of one note, thats when I start viewing it as an instrument.

I consider samplers instruments for me, but they may not be in the hands of someone else, I guess its all how you use/view it.

but of course just my $.02

See where you say "play a whole new melody"..In that case I would say it's an instrument!! cuz you are actually playing somthing instead of it playing it for you with the push of a button!!If you sample a note off a piano and use that to play chords ..it is an instrument..if you steal a guitar riff off a album and put it in you song next to the line you drew through piano roll..I say it is not an instrument!..But who am I...do what makes a good song!!

I love it when I see a hip hop act on stage with a real band..it just has so much feeling..So boring to watch the main artist with a D.J...or even worse 20 of his boy's helping out with the ad-lib and you cant even tell whats going on!!!


BUt who cares..make some good music and replace the crap thats on the radio now instead of arguing!!

[Fredrik]

I never undertstood the mindset of the people who say sampling is "theft" or "cheating". When done right it´s a different kind of expression, that´s it IMO. There should be enough room for both the Rembrandts and the Warhols.

[Teo Macero]

Originally Posted by illacov

And....

well maybe I would be excited if I still sampled.

Left it alone back in like 2003. Moved onto live instruments NEVER turned back. Still rock the drum machines, drum playback modules that play samples of drums etc... But I stopped digging crates, sampling other people's work all that.

Dunno, just broke thru to a whole new plateu once I got my hands on studio players. Feel like a kid in a candy store every time I got a whole band tracking my compositions. LOVE IT!!

Peace
Illumination

but the idea behind sampling is that you can NEVER recreate THAT sound, played at THAT moment, with THOSE players on THAT record. You can try, but the timbre, character etc etc etc will never have the magic as it did on the orginal record.

[illacov]

Originally Posted by Teo Macero

but the idea behind sampling is that you can NEVER recreate THAT sound, played at THAT moment, with THOSE players on THAT record. You can try, but the timbre, character etc etc etc will never have the magic as it did on the orginal record.

Who said I'm recreating anything???

That's the idea behind COMPOSING versus SAMPLING.

I MAKE UP SHIT and then my players PLAY IT. Like can you give me D minor and then go to G?? Sure Illumination (studio magic happens) i smile and move on. BTW No sample clearances or gay posts on gearslutz asking if I will get sued for x y or z sample.

Wow, way to miss the whole point of my post. I am saying yes a sampler is an instrument.

However, I like making up my OWN compositions and having the players play it.

Shit just is way more flexible for me to say go to G instead of saying damn if only that sample went to G.

I'm not knocking anyone who samples. I just DON'T miss it. I always wanted to work with players and got my wish in 2003. Never turned back, finally got to get the sounds my sampled instruments and vinyls could never quite accomplish be it from a technical standpoint or simple use standpoint. Plus I got really tired of that cool record I found, made a track with, recorded a song with, released the cd and sold, becoming someone else's "cool find" a few years later. I got REALLY tired of that. So making up my own shit was the answer I went for.

We are accused of sampling ALL the time though because, we make shit that sounds like RECORDS. No bullshit.

Check the myspace page and you'll see why. I'm very picky about using sampled instruments especially pianos and shit like that so they get very handled whenever they are used. That's all.

Sorry you misread my post. Lol

Peace
Illumination

[Teo Macero]

wow, and I'm sorry you misread mine and had to get all defensive about it.

Yea, composition is fun..I know, I have a Master's in it. The point I'm trying to make, I guess, is that you can't recreate the sound of Sample-Based hip-hop UNLESS you treat your live-recordings as if it was a vinyl record you just dug out a crate. Therefore you're basically sampling your own work and therefore, you are still sampling...

[Teo Macero]

Originally Posted by illacov

Who said I'm recreating anything???
(...)
We are accused of sampling ALL the time though because, we make shit that sounds like RECORDS. No bullshit.
(...)
Sorry you misread my post. Lol

Peace
Illumination

so you ARE recreating the sound of vinyl? Sorry, I hope I didn't misread it.

[brian_delizza]

Originally Posted by Teo Macero

so you ARE recreating the sound of vinyl? Sorry, I hope I didn't misread it.

but he is not copying a sample, he is composing original melodies that get called out as samples because they are recorded well...

[illacov]

Originally Posted by Teo Macero

so you ARE recreating the sound of vinyl? Sorry, I hope I didn't misread it.

WTF are you getting on about??

You can never recreate the sound of an old record with music we make now??

Why would I care??

If you have a masters in composition then why on earth are you pretending to have one in telepathy?

I never said I am trying to make my shit sound OLD or NEW. I said I get accused of sampling because A) We have compositions that are musically convincing (probably because of the instruments). B) I am all for "period" music much like "period" films. So sometimes I make up arrangements or instrument choices based on the way people themed their music in the past. So piano, electric guitars, electric bass and B3 organ with over compressed drums. Gets you what? Hmmm something that sounds good, but others think you stole from someone else. I get it all the time, oh wow what record did you sample that from?

Again I'm not getting defensive I'm getting frustrated with your comments because I said A and you said SIGMA lol

Why anyone on earth in this day and age would care if they can never recreate the sound of analog tape thru vintage consoles with great mics in great rooms, mixed to tape, mastered to tape, to vinyl lathes, escapes me. Simply because that's true FOR EVERYONE. Rock, Funk, Jazz, Classical, we are all in the same boat. This ain't a hip hop thing, thats what we call modernity.

For a person who has obviously spent a good deal of time in educating themselves about composition, it escapes me why you're an advocate of sampling. Of course its possible but it throws me thru a loop. Really it does.

Why on earth would you clown the people who have themselves taken the time to learn traditional instruments, composition, arrangement and at times notation over people who have to do none of those things to achieve their results?

Dude you just clowned a composer for a person who makes "beats!"

Again, let's go back to composition 101. If I am composing I am not attempting to get the sound of vinyl or the sound of ANY medium.

I am simply composing. That means I come up with melodies and accompaniment that I arrange into pieces and eventually into songs when I write words to them. Sound familiar? I cannot help it that we use warm gear or run our tracks to tape or mix OTB with a warm matrix or build our mics to meet old school specs. I cannot help it that I was raised on Stevie Wonder, Led Zepp, Jimi Hendrix, Sly and The Family Stone and Ray Charles, which was played off my mother's 8 track stereo on cinderblocks. Right next to her Reel to Reel machine. I cannot help I was a breakdancer and then a rapper. This stuff all makes my music my special take on things.

I am not "sampling" myself I am simply making Hip Hop with live instruments. So at no point does Halion, Battery or Kontakt get loaded with snippets of our stuff and replayed again from the sampler. We don't use an MPC, simply Reaper.

Of course and of course, since we are recording our music into a computer and it plays back wav's we are "sampling" ourselves. However I will look at anybody crosseyed if they say they are sampling because they sample themselves. Most people consider that RECORDING. Which is odd that you would describe that as Sampling, which to me is a complete misnomer. The Beatles "sampled" themselves according to your criteria.

I always have regarded sampling as utilizing recorded phrases or segments of the recordings of previously recorded and released compositions in a new format or composition.

So in layman's terms I SAMPLE James Brown's Funky Drummer which is a RELEASED recording and use it in my composition to my own end. To me that's sampling as far as the music business is concerned.

If I load up wavs of my band and run it thru Halion and these are things that aren't released or being sold commercially, perhaps don't even have a spot in the Copyright office or at BMI or ASCAP then your compositions don't exist to the outside world and you haven't taken anything from anyone if you OWN it.

If you are saying that this is indeed sampling then you my friend have created what we call a CONTRADICTION.


Worst case scenario you sample your old record that was released commercially, you have to go thru the process of clearing your own work (if you released it on another label and don't own the rights to it) and citing yourself and whoever else has credits on that song. To me that would truly be "sampling" yourself. Dumb but still sampling.

However, If I recall you mentioned that Sample Based Hip Hop cannot be "faked." Ok, then obviously someone who "samples" themselves is NOT doing the real they are faking it and therefore not accomplishing the point of sampling. Which means they are doing something else. Right???

To which you say....

Peace
Illumination

[Teo Macero]

Originally Posted by brian_delizza

but he is not copying a sample, he is composing original melodies that get called out as samples because they are recorded well...

I didn't say he was copying anything. That's not the point.
If you try to make Sample-Based hip-hop with live instruments, the danger is doesn't sound like sample-based hip-hop because you can't play sample-based hip-hop live. You know what I mean? In order for your live instrumentation to have a sample-based hip-hop feel to it, you have to go back and sample/cut/chop up your own recorded composition. Which brings us back to the word "recreating". Which is what he does. He's not copying anything. He recreates the SOUND of sample-based hip-hop.
You guys have recreating and copying mixed up.

For instance
I compose a piece for piano. But I can't have the piano player play as if he's an MPC, so I record him as if it's just a piece for piano. Afterwards I go back to the recording and sample/cut/chop the pieces I want to use to build a beat. That's the only way your live recording will sound like sample-based hip-hop.

[Teo Macero]

Originally Posted by illacov

WTF are you getting on about??

You can never recreate the sound of an old record with music we make now??
I never said that. I said you can't recreate the sound a specific original record.

Why would I care??

If you have a masters in composition then why on earth are you pretending to have one in telepathy?
??? Dude, calm down...this is a discussion forum.

I never said I am trying to make my shit sound OLD or NEW. I said I get accused of sampling because A) We have compositions that are musically convincing (probably because of the instruments). B) I am all for "period" music much like "period" films. So sometimes I make up arrangements or instrument choices based on the way people themed their music in the past. So piano, electric guitars, electric bass and B3 organ with over compressed drums. Gets you what? Hmmm something that sounds good, but others think you stole from someone else. I get it all the time, oh wow what record did you sample that from?
So you have succesfully recreated a vinyl sound. Congratz.

Again I'm not getting defensive I'm getting frustrated with your comments because I said A and you said SIGMA lol

Why anyone on earth in this day and age would care if they can never recreate the sound of analog tape thru vintage consoles with great mics in great rooms, mixed to tape, mastered to tape, to vinyl lathes, escapes me. Simply because that's true FOR EVERYONE. Rock, Funk, Jazz, Classical, we are all in the same boat. This ain't a hip hop thing, thats what we call modernity.
Hip-Hop DJ's care.

For a person who has obviously spent a good deal of time in educating themselves about composition, it escapes me why you're an advocate of sampling. Of course its possible but it throws me thru a loop. Really it does.
Not an advocate, but if this throws you thru a loop I understand why it's hard for you to understand the point I'm trying to make. I don't like to be one-dimensional.

Why on earth would you clown the people who have themselves taken the time to learn traditional instruments, composition, arrangement and at times notation over people who have to do none of those things to achieve their results?

Dude you just clowned a composer for a person who makes "beats!"
I don't know whose posts you have been reading, but you're totally off-based here. I didn't say this anywhere at all. Typical defensive remark. Not only that, you're putting yourself above a beatmaker. Why, cuz you think composing is "better" or requires more "knowledge" of music? Who's clowning who now?

Again, let's go back to composition 101. If I am composing I am not attempting to get the sound of vinyl or the sound of ANY medium.

I am simply composing. That means I come up with melodies and accompaniment that I arrange into pieces and eventually into songs when I write words to them. Sound familiar? I cannot help it that we use warm gear or run our tracks to tape or mix OTB with a warm matrix or build our mics to meet old school specs. I cannot help it that I was raised on Stevie Wonder, Led Zepp, Jimi Hendrix, Sly and The Family Stone and Ray Charles, which was played off my mother's 8 track stereo on cinderblocks. Right next to her Reel to Reel machine. I cannot help I was a breakdancer and then a rapper. This stuff all makes my music my special take on things.

I am not "sampling" myself I am simply making Hip Hop with live instruments. So at no point does Halion, Battery or Kontakt get loaded with snippets of our stuff and replayed again from the sampler. We don't use an MPC, simply Reaper.

Of course and of course, since we are recording our music into a computer and it plays back wav's we are "sampling" ourselves. However I will look at anybody crosseyed if they say they are sampling because they sample themselves. Most people consider that RECORDING. Which is odd that you would describe that as Sampling, which to me is a complete misnomer. The Beatles "sampled" themselves according to your criteria.
Which they did (Norwegian Woods, Sgt Pepper). Pretty interesting stuff too I might add, since it paved the way for many who followed to be experimental with tape techniques and such.

I always have regarded sampling as utilizing recorded phrases or segments of the recordings of previously recorded and released compositions in a new format or composition.

So in layman's terms I SAMPLE James Brown's Funky Drummer which is a RELEASED recording and use it in my composition to my own end. To me that's sampling as far as the music business is concerned.


If I load up wavs of my band and run it thru Halion and these are things that aren't released or being sold commercially, perhaps don't even have a spot in the Copyright office or at BMI or ASCAP then your compositions don't exist to the outside world and you haven't taken anything from anyone if you OWN it.

If you are saying that this is indeed sampling then you my friend have created what we call a CONTRADICTION.


Worst case scenario you sample your old record that was released commercially, you have to go thru the process of clearing your own work (if you released it on another label and don't own the rights to it) and citing yourself and whoever else has credits on that song. To me that would truly be "sampling" yourself. Dumb but still sampling.

However, If I recall you mentioned that Sample Based Hip Hop cannot be "faked." Ok, then obviously someone who "samples" themselves is NOT doing the real they are faking it and therefore not accomplishing the point of sampling. Which means they are doing something else. Right???
No, you're contradicting yourself now. And it's a pretty dumb example if you asked me.

To which you say....

Peace
Illumination

It sounds like we see a different meaning behind the term "sampling".

[OneUp Ent]

Originally Posted by illacov

And....

well maybe I would be excited if I still sampled.

Left it alone back in like 2003. Moved onto live instruments NEVER turned back. Still rock the drum machines, drum playback modules that play samples of drums etc... But I stopped digging crates, sampling other people's work all that.

Dunno, just broke thru to a whole new plateu once I got my hands on studio players. Feel like a kid in a candy store every time I got a whole band tracking my compositions. LOVE IT!!

Peace
Illumination

Some of your stuff has a cool vibe, reminds of mid 90's OutKast.

[jedilaw]

Think of it like collage. Do great collage artists like Romare Bearden "steal" when they incorporate visual elements of other works into their collages? Or are they re-purposing those visual elements, turning them into something else?

Now listen to De La Soul's "Cool Breeze On The Rocks", which is a sonic collage in the same tradition as Bearden's visual collages. Did they "steal" music, or were they re-contextualizing it? Listen to DJ Shadow's "Best Foot Forward" and answer the same question.

Also, consider earlier uses of sampling technology. What do you think the Beatles were doing when they used that tape loop machine during the creation of Sgt. Pepper's? What do you think Musique Concrete is, if not sampling? Sampling those old soul/funk records had as much to do with recording the sound of one's environment as it ever did with "stealing" someone else's music.

[gearaddict]

Ok everyone..sampling is not as bad as..a whole song looping over an over with almost no change at all...sample away and learn to play another day .lol!!! just trying to clear the air around here for a min...we all love music or we would not be here discussing it!!!!

[illacov]

Originally Posted by Teo Macero

It sounds like we see a different meaning behind the term "sampling".

At least you like The Big Lebowski.


And no for the last time I am not recreating sample based hip hop.

Did you even check my music out??

Give me a my