How to Master?

[Chess King]

Not on just this forum, but a lot of forums where professionals reside, I just love how, when someone asks how to master or mix, all the MEs act like doing good mixing or mastering is something that can't be learned by the person posing the question.

[illacov]

Originally Posted by Chess King

Not on just this forum, but a lot of forums where professionals reside, I just love how, when someone asks how to master or mix, all the MEs act like doing good mixing or mastering is something that can't be learned by the person posing the question.

Would you care to teach them since you obviously know how?

I've been producing for 16 years, just recently got into mixing and discovered I have a talent for it. That being said, 3 years later I'm still learning the ropes around different techniques and what to listen for and I still have not the slightest inkling to really master anything.

So I'm told Im a pretty capable engineer.

Give me a mix any day and I'm with it.

Mastering is for the mastering engineers.

Feel free to learn how and while you're learning, let somebody else master it.

Hows that??

Putting limits on what you should do versus can is great for getting shit accomplished.

If the poster has a project that needs to be completed wouldnt it make ALOT more sense to get the damn project mastered, especially when it might cost him less than 1000 dollars to get a good master?

The equipment required to master is expensive. At least the good shit.

You can try to do it with plug ins, but you have to rely on a crystal, precise monitoring chain and treated rooms, etc..that still add up to way more than one mastering job.

I'll just say I spent less than 1000 dollars and no degree of frugality makes me want to learn how to do it, so I can save a few bucks.

I actually have way less stress on my shoulders knowing all I have to do is deliver a great mix and then somebody else is going to give me a great finished product.

Peace
Illumination

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by Chess King

Not on just this forum, but a lot of forums where professionals reside, I just love how, when someone asks how to master or mix, all the MEs act like doing good mixing or mastering is something that can't be learned by the person posing the question.

Yeah, man, nobody's saying "He can never learn to master." They're saying "With what his concept of 'mastering' is, he'll never learn to do it right." A bit more study, some practice, and an ass-kicking or two (these are very important, IME) will set him straight, and there's no doubt in my mind that he can learn the art. He just needs to reevaluate what that art is about.

[smoke]

There should never be anything wrong with asking a question. You have to start somewhere. Others want the same info, but were probably afraid to ask, so he stepped up.

[Chess King]

Just saying that MEs act like it's some magic shit sometimes. Most things in this world takes time to learn. But everyone starts somewhere. And some learn faster than others, some have an ear for it, some don't, some have talent, some don't.

Even if you in your bedroom on shitty Logitech computer speakers you can start learning about mixing and what a good mix is.

If you know a thing or two, you have a good ear, you have talent, you can do a good mix on any system, in any room, as long as you know how it translates.

Mastering... is different. Equipment/room come more into play, but it doesn't mean that you can't start gaining knowledge on the subject.

[smoke]

Originally Posted by Chess King

Just saying that MEs act like it's some magic shit sometimes. Most things in this world takes time to learn. But everyone starts somewhere. And some learn faster than others, some have an ear for it, some don't, some have talent, some don't.

Even if you in your bedroom on shitty Logitech computer speakers you can start learning about mixing and what a good mix is.

If you know a thing or two, you have a good ear, you have talent, you can do a good mix on any system, in any room, as long as you know how it translates.

Mastering... is different. Equipment/room come more into play, but it doesn't mean that you can't start gaining knowledge on the subject.

I agree. I think people buy into this whole "sacred art of mastering", and it becomes engrained in them that NO ONE should do it or even say the word. As if it's this special technical skill that you have to step into some golden gate to achieve. Bullshit. The more I hear things like "just get an ME", the more intrigued I become of the process, and the more I try to deliberately hear things and try to become more discernable about certain qualities of music. I have gotten pretty far in my knowlegde of mastering (thanks mainly to Bob Katz's book) and all of this is just a hobby for me... but lots of times I think I have a better understanding than some people who claim to do this for a living.

Current MEs are gonna die one day, hate to say it, but we all do. Someone has got to be next. People should be happy that some young kids are interested in it. There are enough wanna be producers and rappers.

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by smoke

There should never be anything wrong with asking a question. You have to start somewhere. Others want the same info, but were probably afraid to ask, so he stepped up.

This is true, but on the other hand, there's a LOT of information available on the basics of mastering. A cursory glance at a Google search or even Wikipedia will turn up piles of info, not to mention the fact that it's been covered a dozen times here on GS. Furthermore, there's an entire forum dedicated to the art, with a lot of real pros willing to share their insight.

I understand it can be intimidating, but I also feel it's crass and ignorant to come around looking for such easy answers. People looking for professional results - in any art, trade, or occupation - simply need to hire a professional.

I ... apply Waves L2 CD Rendering pre setting to get the track as loud as possible.

I know some people run them through maximizers

I am missing something here and I just don't know what to do to get it louder and have more impact.

These three statements are clues to the fact that this guy has a LOT to learn, and there's not a single piece of advice that any person on GS that can offer him better than the first six answers. Those answers were, to paraphrase: practice makes perfect; watching a pro will be very enlightening; a good master starts with a good mix; it's a bad idea to master your own material; you need to hire a professional if you want professional results.

Maybe you find that discouraging. If that's the case, I'm gonna let you in on a secret: the world is a discouraging place. There are no easy answers, and that's especially true if you wanna deal with trying to make a career in music. When someone fails to give you the answer you want, you can't go crying about how everyone is mean, elitist, whatever (even though it may be all true). These people are still giving you good, valid advice, even if the answer's not the one you wanted to hear. It doesn't mean they're out to get you.

[illacov]

Originally Posted by smoke

I agree. I think people buy into this whole "sacred art of mastering", and it becomes engrained in them that NO ONE should do it or even say the word. As if it's this special technical skill that you have to step into some golden gate to achieve. Bullshit. The more I hear things like "just get an ME", the more intrigued I become of the process, and the more I try to deliberately hear things and try to become more discernable about certain qualities of music. I have gotten pretty far in my knowlegde of mastering (thanks mainly to Bob Katz's book) and all of this is just a hobby for me... but lots of times I think I have a better understanding than some people who claim to do this for a living.

Current MEs are gonna die one day, hate to say it, but we all do. Someone has got to be next. People should be happy that some young kids are interested in it. There are enough wanna be producers and rappers.

I think there are too many people getting into the recording business.

Way too many.

Since when is it smart to keep every fish you catch??

You act like pros and novices alike want to keep people out of the industry by telling them that if you want your mastered hire someone to do it.

That's great that one day I'm gonna die and so will my ME. You know what though.

Until that genius dies I'm going to keep using him.

I have no clue if the OP is a mix engineer trying to learn to master or just somebody who's into mastering.

I can say without a doubt that you should definitely start with learning how to track and mix before you start mastering anything.

Of course do whatever is in your power to do.

But if you do it wrong then it will show.

As far as us guys helping somebody out, I'm sick and f**king tired of the hook up generation.

F**k a hookup. If you want to learn then you will do more than post on Gearslutz.

Let the church say Amen.

I did more than seek free information to get where I'm at. I bust my ass, understand?

And while I can see anyone could learn to master, that don't mean they will be great or even good at it.

There are LOTS of people out there who master right now and have many many years left in them. If you want to be one of them or join their ranks, then why not approach them?

I'm no mastering engineer, just tracking and mixing. I mod equipment, research old techniques and network. That's how I get better at what I do.

I've maybe met 5 people on gearslutz in the years I've been a member that where worth diddly squat to me.

The rest have all be REAL WORLD interactions.

I did a show in and made a connect with a guy that used to engineer at Electric Ladyland. He's got credits with majors. Worked in some of the sickest rooms and has worked with people like Mary J. Blige and ?uestlove. But I didn't meet him thru some internet transaction, I met him out there on the grind.

The good connects still come from word of mouth and real live interaction with people.

The actual textbook answer is internship at a recording studio or mastering house.

If the OP asked for tips on mixing I can't tell him better than I can show him.

Peace
Illumination

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by illacov

As far as us guys helping somebody out, I'm sick and f**king tired of the hook up generation.

F**k a hookup. If you want to learn then you will do more than post on Gearslutz.

Let the church say Amen.

Amen, brotha! AMEEEN!!!

[smoke]

^^ You two...

Well that's my philosophy on anything basically, this happens to be a question about mastering. Personally I don't let folx tell me what I can or can't do. If I did, I wouldn't be anywhere right now. Obviously one has to have the common sense to know what lane to stay in and when to change...

I do understand, and I think most understand the importance of hiring an ME for a serious project.... Actually I understand everything what you guys just said, can't say you're wrong. Can't say that I have ever disagreed with either of you two actually, some of the more informative and honest posters here.

~Maybe I'm disappointed that I have never heard ONE word of an actual encouragement of getting into the field of mastering.

[illacov]

Originally Posted by smoke

^^ You two...

Well that's my philosophy on anything basically, this happens to be a question about mastering. Personally I don't let folx tell me what I can or can't do. If I did, I wouldn't be anywhere right now. Obviously one has to have the common sense to know what lane to stay in and when to change...

I do understand, and I think most understand the importance of hiring an ME for a serious project.... Actually I understand everything what you guys just said, can't say you're wrong. Can't say that I have ever disagreed with either of you two actually, some of the more informative and honest posters here.

~Maybe I'm disappointed that I have never heard ONE word of an actual encouragement of getting into the field of mastering.

Words of encouragement are best showered upon those who have already got the ball rolling.

I encourage people that are already hustling.

Somebody who doesn't have the ambition to get their ass in gear and try shit out, doesn't need encouragement, they need a new goal.

I get encouraged at this point in my career by people who respect what Ive ACCOMPLISHED, not what I say I want.

Ambition negates encouragement.

But if it helps any trolls or wanna be engineers.

I BELIEVE I CAN FLY! I BELIEVE I CAN TOUCH THE SKY!

Peace
Illumination

[Chess King]

Personally, if you seem like a decent dude, and you don't come off as lazy, and you're willing to learn, willing to put in the work, you have my respect and blessing, and I'll help you out with whatever I know and have the time to spare. To me the OP just seems a little misinformed about what mastering really is, considering his routine of just slapping some plugins on, but I think it's better to just put him on the right path in a cool tone.

If you're not interested in helping out at all, just stay clear of these types of threads, or enter, read the first sentence, and back out. Don't waste your time.

And on a last note to everyone who's suggesting pros, it's the professional MEs who's putting out all these major label CDs with no dynamics that sound like shit. The last Metallica release is just one in a series of bad releases, so many releases sound like shit. I know plenty of people you'd call amateurs who make much better sounding stuff, and that's people with just a few years experience, compared to these "pros" with a life time experience who's putting out some of the most horrible sounding shit I've ever heard. Making a wall of noise is easy.

[tonymission]

My old mentor used to say the following:

"I used to try to motivate the educated, now I just educate the motivated"

If you *really* wanted to learn, you wouldn't be asking around here. There are so many ways to be proactive about the process.

[Chess King]

So those 800 posts you got, you never asked a question?

Still, a forum is just another medium, follow the times, that's probably why you're here? You're following the times. You can learn by experimenting, learn by doing, learn by books, school, mentor, whatever, or a forum.

[tonymission]

Originally Posted by Chess King

So those 800 posts you got, you never asked a question?

Still, a forum is just another medium, follow the times, that's probably why you're here? You're following the times. You can learn by experimenting, learn by doing, learn by books, school, mentor, whatever, or a forum.

I've asked plenty of questions, in life, in general.

But they weren't how do I Quarterback?

They were: when the defense lines up this way, what's the best audible? when im rolling left, what's the best mechanics to make the proper throw? when there are two safeties splitting the deep half of the field, where are the soft spots in the zone? what's the timing on that? a three-step drop? where does the LB's hook-to-curl zone stop before it's passed off to the safety?

[Chess King]

So why not just either put the OP on the right path, or just stay away from threads like this, that way you don't waste your time, and you leave it to people who have more patience to help out.

[tonymission]

Originally Posted by Chess King

So why not just either put the OP on the right path, or just stay away from threads like this, that way you don't waste your time, and you leave it to people who have more patience to help out.

How did this get directed at me all of a sudden?

The general point of this thread is really simple: "it's a very broad question and something that men with 20 years of experience are still getting better at. start somewhere and keep going from there ..."

asking how to master is a lot like asking how to be good at anything in one swipe...

how do i snowboard?

um... huh? go on a snowboarding forum and ask that. you might get some people all nice like "ok now strap your boots up... 2) stand up 3) try not to fall" but at the end of the day you just gotta practice.

does that make any sense? im not ripping on the OP at all -- in fact i just scrolled up to see what he originally posted -- but im ripping on the mentality or lack of understanding that things like this are not as simple as slapping an L2 on a 2-bus... it's a feel thing that's constantly getting better and it takes years and years and years of practice. shit, i got 12 years in this (roundabout) game and MY OWN MIXES still frustrate the hell out of me ... patience isn't the issue on this topic... qualification is.

Mastering. As it actually IS and IS defined ... well, there are probably only a handful of people in this forum who're qualified 100% to teach someone else how to master (vs "how do i make my tracks louder?!") ... and that AINT gonna happen on an internet forum in one swipe.

If you can argue that, then we just aint on the same page homie

[Chess King]

I'm not arguing that at all, which should be pretty clear from the posts I've made. In fact I've already touched on what you say, I've already said the OP seemed misinformed to what mastering is and his way of going about it. So what you're saying here is really mute. We all know this.

What I asked you was why are you wasting your time in this thread? Threads like this come up all the time on forums like this, it's the kind of threads you get bored of fast. And you've obviously been around a while, so that's why I asked.

I can see I'm not going to get an answer though, so forget it.

[tonymission]

Originally Posted by Chess King

I'm not arguing that at all, which should be pretty clear from the posts I've made. In fact I've already touched on what you say, I've already said the OP seemed misinformed to what mastering is and his way of going about it. So what you're saying here is really mute. We all know this.

What I asked you was why are you wasting your time in this thread? Threads like this come up all the time on forums like this, it's the kind of threads you get bored of fast. And you've obviously been around a while, so that's why I asked.

I can see I'm not going to get an answer though, so forget it.

I've already answered your question, I feel, very directly.

At some point, someone is going to see "How to master", come into the thread and realize that it's a long road that takes a lot of patience and real-world application. One person -- whether it's today or next year -- will have his mentality somewhat altered because of the "reality" noted in this thread.

It's not a WASTE of time, it's explanation of what it takes to be good at a lifetime craft. Some people are misinformed, thinking it's a 3 month class they can take at their local community college. It's not, they know that now if they didn't before and hopefully will spend as much time as possible scouring as many sources of information as possible to get their steps off in the right direction.

The single quote "educate the motivated, not motivate the educated" says a lot more than seven words. It says "get off your ass and stop relying everything to be so damn easy because it's not".

No one ever accused me of being a teddy bear but then again, no one carefully babysat me as I came up in the industries that I've came up in during my lifetime. Some people got grind and make it, other people look for the easy solution or the easy REASON why they aren't succeeding. The truth is, certain habits from a growth perspective translate to all areas of life. Some people do well with everything they try to do well at, some people fail at just about everything. It has little to do with talent/knowledge and everything to do with drive, persistence and appreciation of the learning and growth process.

Our generation wants to know nothing of that ...

Whether its mastering, playing football, snowboarding or weaving baskets... there is a process and it must be respected. Period.

[Chess King]

Ok... whatever.

No one has said shit about what I said about that Metallica CD though, and the fact that it's these professional MEs you people reference to, you say go to them, take your work to them. When they're making shitty releases with no dynamics, "loudness war", bla bla. Where's the answer to that?

Like I said, I've heard plenty of amateurs that make better sounding releases than what some so called professionals are putting out on the market.

Oh, and what you say about "educate the motivated, bla bla", how the **** you know if the OP is motivated or not? Yeah, he might be misinformed and going about shit in a wrong way, but a couple of simple sentences will take care of that, then you'll find out if he's motivated or not. It's always assumed that people asking about mixing or mastering are lazy ****s, but they're coming to the forum and they're asking about it, so obviously they have the motivation to make their shit sound better. They want their shit to sound good.

[tonymission]

Originally Posted by Chess King

Ok... whatever.

No one has said shit about what I said about that Metallica CD though, and the fact that it's these professional MEs you people reference to, you say go to them, take your work to them. When they're making shitty releases with no dynamics, "loudness war", bla bla. Where's the answer to that?

Like I said, I've heard plenty of amateurs that make better sounding releases than what some so called professionals are putting out on the market.

Oh, and what you say about "educate the motivated, bla bla", how the **** you know if the OP is motivated or not? Yeah, he might be misinformed and going about shit in a wrong way, but a couple of simple sentences will take care of that, then you'll find out if he's motivated or not. It's always assumed that people asking about mixing or mastering are lazy ****s, but they're coming to the forum and they're asking about it, so obviously they have the motivation to make their shit sound better. They want their shit to sound good.

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by Chess King

So why not just either put the OP on the right path.

That's what everyone did...or at least, the first half-dozen or so posts:

Originally Posted by DSD_Mastering

How do you mix?

A: Use your ears...


Regards,

Originally Posted by DROPKICK

There is really no simple solution!!! I would say take it to a mastering engineer just one time and you would learn alot!!!

Originally Posted by phillysoulman

Get a pro to master your stuff...done deal.

Originally Posted by Traxx

Btw...you can acquire a lot of information on mastering in the mastering forum, its a good tool and I would use that instead of the hip hop forum...

Originally Posted by Traxx

Honestly you shouldn't master your own music...First rule of thumb, and if you think just making the track sound louder is mastering then you clearly have no clue what the craft entitles. And limiting your music to death and pushing the gain up is a sure fire way to destroy the dynamics of your song. Your question is simple yet complicated. If y