Modern Rap Vocals

[jazzy655]

Alright, i know i keep asking about these mics. I just dont want to buy one, and then have to return it.
I'm looking for a mic, to be used for rap vocals. The 2 i have boiled it down to are
the Audio Technica 4060, and the Soundelux u195.

Which one do you guys sounds more like modern Rap vocals on the radio. That crispy
upfront sound, without harshness?

any help is appreciated....

[Exmun]

The sound of rap is the sound of compression. Make sure you take a look at that also. At the risk of sacrilege, to me, most of the upfrontness of today's rap has far more to do with the compression than anything else. A lot of rap is recorded with a lot of different stuff. It's the type of compressors and the technique that (to me) gives rap it's sound. With that said, I have and like the U195. But, for rap, you've got the have the rapper back a bit from the mic. The U195 has a prounouced proximity effect (albeit a good sounding one) and it's rather sensitive to plosives. So don't have your rapper all up on the mic.

The 4060, in my limited use of it, is a fine mic for vocals, rap or otherwise. It just depends on the sound you like.

[Fajita]

get yourself a Distressor or find a 160x. Squash the piss out of the vocal, then squash it some more.

[jazzy655]

your talking about the dbx compressor right? i think i will pick one of those up.

so basically, both of those mics are solid mics then, am i correct in saying this?

[Igotsoul4u]

[quote=Exmun]The sound of rap is the sound of compression. Make sure you take a look at that also. At the risk of sacrilege, to me, most of the upfrontness of today's rap has far more to do with the compression than anything else. A lot of rap is recorded with a lot of different stuff. It's the type of compressors and the technique that (to me) gives rap it's sound. With that said, I have and like the U195. But, for rap, you've got the have the rapper back a bit from the mic. The U195 has a prounouced proximity effect (albeit a good sounding one) and it's rather sensitive to plosives. So don't have your rapper all up on the mic.

Very very very well put. I totally agree with you about rap and compression. I live by my distressor.

[Exmun]

Yeah. Neither of these will be holding you back, if that's your question. Both are very decent mics. IMO, the U195 is a very good mic and a steal at its pricepoint.

[DivineMusic]

i really like the 4060 for rap vocals and as the other said the distressor is an awesome compressor.
the big question is, "What kinda pre do you have?"

personally i don't agree with "Squash the piss out of the vocal, then squash it some more"
i do record and mix rap/hiphop everyday. i tend to keep peaks no higher than 4-5db while tracking... i'll add more compression while mixing
i don't like hitting the compressor hard while going into my daw.

the 160x is ok, i'd actually use a Pro vla over it but thats my imo.

[The MPCist]

Originally Posted by Exmun

The sound of rap is the sound of compression. Make sure you take a look at that also. At the risk of sacrilege, to me, most of the upfrontness of today's rap has far more to do with the compression than anything else.......

Exactly! A very good point for making hiphop. But when recording, remember don't put too much on--save it for mixing.

[jazzy655]

Originally Posted by DivineMusic

i really like the 4060 for rap vocals and as the other said the distressor is an awesome compressor.
the big question is, "What kinda pre do you have?"

personally i don't agree with "Squash the piss out of the vocal, then squash it some more"
i do record and mix rap/hiphop everyday. i tend to keep peaks no higher than 4-5db while tracking... i'll add more compression while mixing
i don't like hitting the compressor hard while going into my daw.

the 160x is ok, i'd actually use a Pro vla over it but thats my imo.

yeah, i don't think squashing the vocals on the way in is such a good idea for me. i'll leave that for
the mix, but a little while tracking sounds like a good idea, although i've never really "needed" it.

As far as the pres i'm using, i just picked up an ISA 428. thing thing has improved
the sounds of vocals hugely, with my previous vocal pre being a presonus eureka.. BIG improvement, the
vocals seem to spread more, they just sound much much bigger through the ISA 428.

I'm sure an AT4060 through the ISA's will sound phat. I think i'm going to go with that combo.
thanks for the help guys.

btw, if any of you are looking for a good frontend for your daw, you HAVE to check out the ISA stuff.
The price is very nice too, i got 4 great preamps for $1699 for Americanmusical.com

later

[Fajita]

I have an ISA 428 and I love it too. Good for Vox, Overheads etc. Variable impedance is a very nice feature too.

Did you get the A/D card or just the standalone? What converters do ya got?

I have the A/D and the other 4 inputs are used by my Joemeek pres. Lightpipe into ADAT Bridge|24. MUCH better than 428-->Digidesign 888|24.

[moeses]

overcompressing is never good

i've taken recordings in to get mixxed by the big dogs, and come out saying "where's the life in the vocals?"

i slightly compress on the way in, transparently and up the high's on the eq slightly to help it punch through...
that's it

if you need to overcompress, you didn't do it right on the way in!!!

[sleepwalker]

A lot of that sound is double/triple/etc. tracking as well.

[SiliconAudioLab]

Compression yes. Read this BEFORE you think you can capture WITH OUT IT on the way in:

Every Rap singer that's come through my doors wants to hold the mic. and put their lips RIGHT_UP_AGAINST_THE MIC_SCREEN and then cup the F@#%-ing mic.!



No choice BUT TO COMPRESS then. Neuman TLM 193 --> LA2A (orig or UA).

The 193 is priced & sounds JUST RIGHT for the gig.

[nukmusic]

Originally Posted by SiliconAudioLab

Compression yes. Read this BEFORE you think you can capture WITH OUT IT on the way in:

Every Rap singer that's come through my doors wants to hold the mic. and put their lips RIGHT_UP_AGAINST_THE MIC_SCREEN and then cup the F@#%-ing mic.!



No choice BUT TO COMPRESS then. Neuman TLM 193 --> LA2A (orig or UA).

The 193 is priced & sounds JUST RIGHT for the gig.

Dude.....take control of your studio.

[Fajita]

I use a little on the way in with the 160x and I use the distressor on an insert in Pro Tools for the mix. I also track and have had good results with a 2610 as the pre.

Mics- TLM 103, U87, 193

[SiliconAudioLab]

Yep there ya go! My clients will insist they get a mic so the used and abused 193 works like a charm and I then get control of their $$ otherwise they walk.

Oh yeah Apogee converters and the ones on the DMX console.

[SiliconAudioLab]

But I *DO* keep the Soundelux e250's stay clear away from that nonsense!

[DaveC]

Every Rap singer that's come through my doors wants to hold the mic. and put their lips RIGHT_UP_AGAINST_THE MIC_SCREEN and then cup the F@#%-ing mic.!

Well, I guess these guys have a very poor understanding of how things
get done inside a studio...I don't see guys like Snoop Dogg holding the mic
in his hand, he has both hands full rolling a blunt while rapping.
You'd better get these guys in check, or kick those amaturistic lame-asses to the curb, there are enough studio-owners who will do so.
Anyway, what Missy Elliot used to do, is to use (what else) a Sony 800G with a Focusrite ISA pre ( I thought a 430) into an Apogee ( I guess the Rosetta) into PT.
Funny enough, she uses the Waves Ren Vox compressor-plugin and seasoned it with a Distressor.
As you know, all expensive stuff, but cash is the only way to get that sound you hear on them cd's...
For me it's too frustrating to look for a cheap alternative and being disappointed afterwards, so I rent if I can't afford a serious mic or pre to suit my needs.

[jazzy655]

Originally Posted by nukmusic

Dude.....take control of your studio.

my thoughts exactly. i would smack the ebonics out of a rappers mouth if he came in my studio and grabbed my mic like that. this stuff is WAY to expensive for that.
Plus, if he did that, it would be an immediate signal that he has no studio experience whatsoever.

[jazzy655]

Originally Posted by Fajita

I have an ISA 428 and I love it too. Good for Vox, Overheads etc. Variable impedance is a very nice feature too.

Did you get the A/D card or just the standalone? What converters do ya got?

I have the A/D and the other 4 inputs are used by my Joemeek pres. Lightpipe into ADAT Bridge|24. MUCH better than 428-->Digidesign 888|24.

no i didn't get the A/D card yet, although i will be getting it in the future. for converters i'm using and RME ADI-2. Sounds sweet. Feels good to finally be getting into "Real" gear, if you know what i mean.

next piece of gear...Roland MV-8000. not exactly pro audio, i know...but it's a nice piece of kit still.

Man there is one guy here who would "smack the ebonics" outta a rappers mouth, and another who has totally dissed the rappers he records as studio dimwits.. (palming the microphone)

Man I wouldnt record with either of you. Anytime I go to a studio and notice they have hidden the good mikes because they realize it is a rap session (which does not equate to an ebonics session), I dont spend a dime with them! The people you record are probably not rappers. Sounds like wannabe artists. And those who diss the music that they record as strongly as you do are usually wannabe engineers! (Though u all may be great)

I'm basically saying you guys seem to have a great disdain for the music u record and seem to think very little of your clients.

YOU would never get business from me or anyone else with sense enough to realize this. (Which probably explains your client base).

If your sessions are that bad, then its probably not worth the money to you.

On a lighter note. I use a SE Gemini with a Tube Tech CL1-B on the front end in most sessions. With either a dbx 160xt, distressor, or waves ren comp/ren vox during the mix.

What up Nuk, Teach him how to control his studio. maybe if he didnt think of his clients strictly as dollars and have such disdain for rap sessions, he could realize he has some inexperienced artists and he would probably help teach them better recording techniques. But I doubt it!

[Exmun]

The problem with the Internet and forums is that it's really easy for folks to say stuff for laughs or what they think will be acceptance or approval. Sometimes the internet makes people silly saying stuff about slapping ebonics out of people's mouths. Kinda uninformed if you ask me. I doubt that anyone who says stuff like that really has any appreciable amount of rap clients.

I do agree that many rap artists on tv (and artists from other genres) have pretty poor mic technique in live shows. This whole grabbing the mic at the grill is a fairly new phenomenon and it gets on my nerves. I can almost see the future where mic manufacturers are going to design mics to accomodate this poor live performance technique. BUt that's live stuff. I've never seen a rapper, famous or wannabee, grab a studio condensor like that in the studio. Never ever. So I'm not sure that's even true.

[jazzy655]

Originally Posted by Exmun

The problem with the Internet and forums is that it's really easy for folks to say stuff for laughs or what they think will be acceptance or approval. Sometimes the internet makes people silly saying stuff about slapping ebonics out of people's mouths. Kinda uninformed if you ask me. I doubt that anyone who says stuff like that really has any appreciable amount of rap clients.

I do agree that many rap artists on tv (and artists from other genres) have pretty poor mic technique in live shows. This whole grabbing the mic at the grill is a fairly new phenomenon and it gets on my nerves. I can almost see the future where mic manufacturers are going to design mics to accomodate this poor live performance technique. BUt that's live stuff. I've never seen a rapper, famous or wannabee, grab a studio condensor like that in the studio. Never ever. So I'm not sure that's even true.

firstly, me saying that i would smack someone who grabbed my mic like that has nothing to do with the genre of music. i would smack lou rawls if he did it. so your statement to me is funny. what's funnier, is that you get offended when i say "ebonics", even though the appeal of true hiphop is that it has it's own language, which leaves the majority of the population out of the fun. they think they know what's being said, but really have no clue.

what's even funnier than is this, http://www.somobe.com in the picture you'll see a filipino cat, and me, the black guy. the rapper. i know hiphop, very well. (you can now remove your foot from your mouths)

I dont know where your race changes the point. I wouldnt record with purple guy who expressed himself as you have here.

As far as rappers "palming" the microphone in a live set, IF you can get them to hold it at the bottom of the ball on top of say a 58 styled mike then it wont have much effect on the vocal. Its a compramise. They still get to hold it at the top, and the engineer gets something decent to work with.
This is provided they are willing to not cover the entire top of the mic.

I take this issue very serious because an engineer in the 80s pulled the same "switch the mic" stuff on me. (Before I knew enough to know better). He had me doing vocals with a kick mic. Of course this was only because of his stereotypical thinking. Even then I knew enough to know not to hold the microphone. LOL Years later after going through some old pics. I thought "dayum thats a kick mike" Looking back he had to be doing this on purpose because no competent engineer would record vocals with a kick mic

[Exmun]

Originally Posted by jazzy655

what's even funnier than is this, http://www.somobe.com in the picture you'll see a filipino cat, and me, the black guy. the rapper. i know hiphop, very well. (you can now remove your foot from your mouths)

Yeah, and Black people can't be racist. I won't get into a back and forth with you on your thread. I still think it was a silly thing to say, especially in a faceless forum when you don't know who's who. But, there I go again with my foot in my own mouth.

On topic, I'm sure you have a lot to chew on in terms of the two mics. And with that I wish you well on your purchase. Sounds like either of those mics with the Focusrite will do you well.

Es., a guy who doesn't rap, but who has worked with quite a few rappers and still continues to do so.

[dharma one]

its not that hard to explain to anyone working in your studio how the mic works, and tell them if you do this you will sound so much better. people will appreciate the advice once they realize you are just trying to get them sound as good as possible

ive had good results on rap vox with tlm 103 and u87.. compressing with the avalon 737sp. if you compress a lot then make the booth quite dead sounding. same u87 sounds terrible for some singers, really midrangy, go figure?

[jazzy655]

this almost got as stupid as 50cent beef. it's all good. i'm not mad at nobody for the opinions. mics on the way, btw. keep bangin'

[SiliconAudioLab]

The TLM 193 ain't no kick mic.! I've found the best compromise NO it's not a compromise it's the best mic for the styles that require someone cupping a mic.

Next time I'll get a picture of it. They love the results & my $5,000 mics don't get trashed - everyone is happy!

When artists *DO* except they need to be carefull & respectfull I break out the Elux's. And they KNOW I HAVE THEM.

They make a choice:
cup da mic --> 193
respect da mic --> 250

[Fajita]

Originally Posted by dharma one

its not that hard to explain to anyone working in your studio how the mic works, and tell them if you do this you will sound so much better. people will appreciate the advice once they realize you are just trying to get them sound as good as possible

ive had good results on rap vox with tlm 103 and u87.. compressing with the avalon 737sp. if you compress a lot then make the booth quite dead sounding. same u87 sounds terrible for some singers, really midrangy, go figure?

737 comp is too slow for my taste. distress, or 160x.. SMACK!