Mastering Tools Question (real simple tho)!

[rallycapmusic]

Hey guys! Do you find yourselves using mastering tools such as multiband comp's, limiters, etc..on the final 2track mix or the multitrack mix?

[phillysoulman]

Originally Posted by rallycapmusic

Hey guys! Do you find yourselves using mastering tools such as multiband comp's, limiters, etc..on the final 2track mix or the multitrack mix?

The 2 track mix IS the multi track mix,bro.

The multi mix is BUSSED to the 2 mix(stereo mix) which is your 2 track mix.
And yes, I do use various mastering tools on my 2 mix, some of which has been discussed on other threads.

[ryst]

I mix thru a compressor...and then close to the end I add a multi-band comp and sometimes a little eq....all song dependent, of course. But limiters and multi-band comps aren't just for mastering.

[DannyMac]

I find the best results come from doing a ballanced sounding mix -> light comp on the 2 buss -> light (2-4db) limiting.

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by rallycapmusic

Hey guys! Do you find yourselves using mastering tools such as multiband comp's, limiters, etc..on the final 2track mix or the multitrack mix?

Multiband comps are band aids; a good mix almost NEVER gets touched by one.

Anyway, to answer your question, I say let the mastering engineer do the mastering. A bit of mix compression and even program EQ is OK, but truly mastering a record is a discipline few mix engineers are capable of, and it's best left to the professional.

[rallycapmusic]

most of my mixes are fine, its just that i wanted to beef up the overall song. get it a lil louder, punchier and wider.

[Trell Blaze]

Originally Posted by ryst

But limiters and multi-band comps aren't just for mastering.

lol...Most mastering engineers would say that multi-band comps aren't for mastering at all.

[deuc647]

Originally Posted by ryst

I mix thru a compressor...and then close to the end I add a multi-band comp and sometimes a little eq....all song dependent, of course. But limiters and multi-band comps aren't just for mastering.

Ryst, i ve alwasy been curious as to wha people are talkin about when they say they mix INTO a compressor. When do you put it into the signal path? Do you start out with a set threshold, attack, release, ratio? What does it accomplish that you cannot get by simply mixing without it in the signal path? What can it do that a limiter cant do if you are using it to just hit the mix buss a lil harder? Sorry for all the questions, im just really curious and am in no way trying to bash or tell you it doesnt work, just really curious.

I ask, because when i mix, i try to mix with just levels and panning to begin with, then if i still hear frequencies collide, i go to compression, ten i move to EQ. Towards the end, i add EQ to the mix buss, then i start to mix into that(readjusting levels and not EQing as aggressive) then a light limiter and bounce. Just wanna see how peoples styles of mixing vary. Thanks for any response....................Sorry for the hi jack

[jikky]

Originally Posted by deuc647

Ryst, i ve alwasy been curious as to wha people are talkin about when they say they mix INTO a compressor. When do you put it into the signal path? Do you start out with a set threshold, attack, release, ratio? What does it accomplish that you cannot get by simply mixing without it in the signal path? What can it do that a limiter cant do if you are using it to just hit the mix buss a lil harder? Sorry for all the questions, im just really curious and am in no way trying to bash or tell you it doesnt work, just really curious.

I ask, because when i mix, i try to mix with just levels and panning to begin with, then if i still hear frequencies collide, i go to compression, ten i move to EQ. Towards the end, i add EQ to the mix buss, then i start to mix into that(readjusting levels and not EQing as aggressive) then a light limiter and bounce. Just wanna see how peoples styles of mixing vary. Thanks for any response....................Sorry for the hi jack

I'm interested as well. Please share.

[ryst]

Originally Posted by deuc647

Ryst, i ve alwasy been curious as to wha people are talkin about when they say they mix INTO a compressor. When do you put it into the signal path? Do you start out with a set threshold, attack, release, ratio? What does it accomplish that you cannot get by simply mixing without it in the signal path? What can it do that a limiter cant do if you are using it to just hit the mix buss a lil harder? Sorry for all the questions, im just really curious and am in no way trying to bash or tell you it doesnt work, just really curious.

I ask, because when i mix, i try to mix with just levels and panning to begin with, then if i still hear frequencies collide, i go to compression, ten i move to EQ. Towards the end, i add EQ to the mix buss, then i start to mix into that(readjusting levels and not EQing as aggressive) then a light limiter and bounce. Just wanna see how peoples styles of mixing vary. Thanks for any response....................Sorry for the hi jack

I will answer this the best I can and then provide a quote from someone who i have a lot of respect for who can put it in much better words than me.

I have a compressor on the master fader from the beginning of the mix and I always make sure I have no more than 3-4db of GR throughout the song (any more than that and it will started pumping too much....although sometimes it can be cool!). And how do I do that? I find the loudest part of the song and make that rockin' first. I set my ceiling and then work down from there.

Why a comp instead of a limiter? With a comp, I am not trying to hit the mix buss harder. I am trying to give the song some extra energy. If you set the release right, you can get the comp to pump in time with the music. I will do this on drums a lot too. And speaking of energy, mixing thru a comp + automation = energy.....which is what I am trying to achieve. Especially in hip hop where things are not very dynamic. I am surprised at how many hip hop engineers here don't automate much. Just little things here and there can add so much to the track. It's a very important step that is often overlooked.

As far as where to set the controls, I will do it one of 2 ways. I will use the SSL method....which is generally a 4:1 ratio, 10 msec attack, auto release, and no make up gain. Or I will set the release manually so that it's in time with the song. Sometimes the attack is longer or shorter depending on the comp I am using. Same thing with ratio. It just depends on the comp I am using and the song i am mixing.

And why mix thru a comp? A lot of times, I am just not good with words so I find quotes from people who are better at that than me. So here is a quote from Mixerman which pretty much sums it up:

"I'll never understand why anyone would recommend NOT using 2-bus compression on anything other than Classical records and perhaps some straight ahead jazz.

If a mixer delivers a mix that is in need of compression AFTER it's completed, then what has he delivered? An approximation of what the mix will end up like after mastering. I make this statement based on the following fact: 2-BUS COMPRESSION CHANGES INTERNAL BALANCES IN YOUR MIX.

So, if this mixer spent any time at all on his incomplete and uncompressed mix, he's basically wasted everyone's time because compression after-the-fact is going to change your balances. Which begs the obvious question. What did he do? He certainly didn't MIX it.

Use 2-bus compression. It's a rule. And if you aren't happy with your 2-bus compressor, nut up and buy one that does the job properly."

Enjoy,

Mixerman

[ryst]

Originally Posted by bgrotto

Multiband comps are band aids; a good mix almost NEVER gets touched by one.

Anyway, to answer your question, I say let the mastering engineer do the mastering. A bit of mix compression and even program EQ is OK, but truly mastering a record is a discipline few mix engineers are capable of, and it's best left to the professional.

Benny, you and I disagree here. I started using one...not all the time but a few times after discovering that Michael Brauer, Charles Dye, and a few other mix engineers I have a lot of respect for were using them. I never thought about it before but after this discovery I thought..."why not try it"??

I find them useful. Again, not on everything I mix, but a few times they have worked well. Why do you think they are band-aids?

[deuc647]

Ryst, thanks for the detailed explanation , i totally understand now about the pumping effect that you can get when using a comp, i mostly do this with the waves SSL buss comp on the drum buss to give it a pump effect but never though about it on the master buss. Also, about the comment on the auto, i agree with you as well, just lil things like autoing a snare at the break will make a big difference or crashes throughout the song really shift the energy of the song. Now, im sorry but i gotta bite ur idea and try it on the master buss, thanks againthumbsup

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by ryst

Benny, you and I disagree here. I started using one...not all the time but a few times after discovering that Michael Brauer, Charles Dye, and a few other mix engineers I have a lot of respect for were using them. I never thought about it before but after this discovery I thought..."why not try it"??

I find them useful. Again, not on everything I mix, but a few times they have worked well. Why do you think they are band-aids?

But Michael Brauer and Charles Dye are mixing engineers. I'm not saying multiband compressors aren't great tools; they have many creative uses in a mix situation, and I'm sure Mr. Brauer and Mr. Dye use them in brilliant ways. I'm saying that mastering engineers use them on a full, completed mix to correct severe problems (if it all; like Trell said, a lotta MEs don't even consider them a mastering device).

[ryst]

Originally Posted by deuc647

Now, im sorry but i gotta bite ur idea and try it on the master buss, thanks againthumbsup

Hey, it wasn't my idea. I learned it from people much better than me.

[ryst]

Originally Posted by bgrotto

But Michael Brauer and Charles Dye are mixing engineers. I'm not saying multiband compressors aren't great tools; they have many creative uses in a mix situation, and I'm sure Mr. Brauer and Mr. Dye use them in brilliant ways. I'm saying that mastering engineers use them on a full, completed mix to correct severe problems (if it all; like Trell said, a lotta MEs don't even consider them a mastering device).

Ahh! Gotcha! I thought you were talking about using them as band-aids for the mixing stage, not the mastering stage. My bad.....in that case....we agree!

[jikky]

Thanx ryst.

Don't want to take this off subject, but what about 2-track mixing, which I do alot of. This was my approach,

1. Import two track.

2. Record vocals and dubs. Light compression on the inserts. Route to send fx: reverb or delay.

3. Route vocals to output to their own vocal group. (Seperates them from the two trk which has already been mastered) Add limiter to just tap the GR and also adjust the output to 0.003 to control peaks.

4. Add same limiter to the 2bus only to control peaks of the 2trk mix with the vocal group mix.


Should I instead use a compressor in step 3 and make sure my output is peaking at 0db and let the limiter on the 2bus control the peaks of the vocal group and tame any clipping?

[ryst]

Originally Posted by jikkyboy11

Thanx ryst.

Don't want to take this off subject, but what about 2-track mixing, which I do alot of. This was my approach,

1. Import two track.

2. Record vocals and dubs. Light compression on the inserts. Route to send fx: reverb or delay.

3. Route vocals to output to their own vocal group. (Seperates them from the two trk which has already been mastered) Add limiter to just tap the GR and also adjust the output to 0.003 to control peaks.

4. Add same limiter to the 2bus only to control peaks of the 2trk mix with the vocal group mix.


Should I instead use a compressor in step 3 and make sure my output is peaking at 0db and let the limiter on the 2bus control the peaks of the vocal group and tame any clipping?

First of all, when you say 2 track mixing, are you referring to your own beats or beats from other clients? If they are your own, I would stay away from mixing the beat and then record vocals. You need to have the music on it's separate tracks if you can help it. If it's someone else's beat that's been "mixed" already that also depends on if they have used compression or limiting on the beat already.

I only use limiting for certain things. I like compression and would use that over limiting in step 3. I also would use slight comp on the master fader, not limiting. And again, it might not be necessary depending on if the beat is already squashed to death.
If the vox are going to their own buss, compress them there. Don't let the master fader comp or limiter control vocal peaks because then the music would be "ducking" every time their is a vocal peak. I don't put a comp on the master fader for it's ability to tame peaks. i do it for energy. And if your levels are right, then you will have plenty of head room for the mastering engineer and the comp will serve it's purpose compressing the whole song and not taming peaks of individual tracks.
Does that make sense?

[tonymission]

my final chain usually looks like:

metering
eq
multipressor
eq
adaptive limiter
metering

[jikky]

Originally Posted by ryst

First of all, when you say 2 track mixing, are you referring to your own beats or beats from other clients? If they are your own, I would stay away from mixing the beat and then record vocals. You need to have the music on it's separate tracks if you can help it. If it's someone else's beat that's been "mixed" already that also depends on if they have used compression or limiting on the beat already.

I only use limiting for certain things. I like compression and would use that over limiting in step 3. I also would use slight comp on the master fader, not limiting. And again, it might not be necessary depending on if the beat is already squashed to death.
If the vox are going to their own buss, compress them there. Don't let the master fader comp or limiter control vocal peaks because then the music would be "ducking" every time their is a vocal peak. I don't put a comp on the master fader for it's ability to tame peaks. i do it for energy. And if your levels are right, then you will have plenty of head room for the mastering engineer and the comp will serve it's purpose compressing the whole song and not taming peaks of individual tracks.
Does that make sense?

I am referring to beat that clients bring in. Mainly I am recording mixtapes so it would be a beat that's a song on the radio (i.e. a beat rick ross, young jeezy, ugk already performed on, basically the two track instrumental) When I mix original songs I keep everything on seperate tracks of course. So the beat is already mixed basically and I'm just laying vocals on top.

So if I understand correctly a better approach would be:

1. Import 2 track

2. Record vocals. FX sends.

3. Output vocals to a vocal bus and compress there. (no individual track compression)


There won't be any mastering. The beats are already mastered so I believe it's just a matter of getting vocal levels to sit within the beat and match the level of loudness.

What you said makes perfect sense tho. Am I on the right track with the process above?

[Franco]

Any masterer worth paying money to do what they do, should have a really good multi-band compressor and know how to use it to its full capacity. Whether they like using one or not, that's another issue, (let's face it, it sucks to work on music to fix problems as opposed to working towards better acoustic "aesthetic") but don't think for one second that a serious masterer doesn't have one in their arsenal and doesn't consider these sort of things serious tools, quite the opposite. It's that tool that is used when a revision to a mix is not possible and there's a need to pull down/up a certain range of frequencies while trying not to affect the others, which happens quite a bit unfortunately.

With regards to using mastering tools on your mixes, I would advise you to learn to get great mixes that have a good sense of depth and clarity, and plenty of headroom. Then, bounce that mixdown and apply whatever you want to it and go to town. What happens when self-mastering is that when you get around to compiling a project, or using a self-mastered track in another project (that may end up going to a mastering professional), you might realize that your "mastered" mixes don't sound nearly as good as the ones that were better mixes and went to a pro for mastering, so "CYA" and make sure you have "unmastered" mixes for anything that may come up in the future (who knows, you may eventually want to pay someone to master your project and one of these joints may be something you'll want professionally-touched down the line).

[Darm]

Originally Posted by rallycapmusic

most of my mixes are fine, its just that i wanted to beef up the overall song. get it a lil louder, punchier and wider.

Just send it to a mastering engineer! He will do it a lot better then you!

[ryst]

Originally Posted by jikkyboy11

3. Output vocals to a vocal bus and compress there. (no individual track compression)

When I said compress there, what I meant was either on the vox bus or the individual vox tracks (or both), and not expect the 2-buss compression to handle the vox peaks. Sorry for the confusion.

[smoke]

Question:

I wanted to take a stereo file and make it into a dual mono, so I could use separate processing for each channel.

I exported the stereo file from the DAW and brought it back in, splitting the channels into L mono/R mono, bringing the 2 tracks back in. It lost lots of width and depth. What was I missing? Or was it probably just an 1D10t error?

[jikky]

Originally Posted by ryst

When I said compress there, what I meant was either on the vox bus or the individual vox tracks (or both), and not expect the 2-buss compression to handle the vox peaks. Sorry for the confusion.

Nah I'm just trying to understand. Glad you clear that up for me. I'm currently trying what you said on a song. I have a compressor on the inserts, I have a reverb on the send. I didn't like the double for this particular song so since it's one take I'm processing the insert and not a group. On the insert I have the compressor tapping at 4db of gain reduction and make up gain to take the level back close to 0db. Sounds good. Then on 2bus I have a limiter just to make sure nothing is going over 0db. The limiter isn't doing much of anything though. A clip here and there is indicated by the limiter where the beat and word of emphasis push the levels (which was at 4 spots in the verse and the clip light just briefly blinked.) Should I automate those few parts instead and just leave the 2bus empty?

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by Franco

Any masterer worth paying money to do what they do, should have a really good multi-band compressor and know how to use it to its full capacity.

Any mastering engineer worth paying money to oughta tell you to remix a song that's bad enough to require multiband compression.

Multiband compression will completely destroy whatever balance you've got; you'll end up with a totally different balance/mix/vibe. Every ME worth his salt knows this, and will approach multiband compression with extreme caution (and prejudice!).

If the ME cares about you and your project, he'll ask for a remix. If a remix is impossible, so be it; he'll do his best with what you give him. Hopefully, though, you'll only need a remix because you're a non-pro who's mixing it yourself at home, which means easy recallability.

BTW - "you" does not refer to Franco, or any other specific person; I'm just speaking generally.

[Trell Blaze]

Originally Posted by smoke

Question:

I wanted to take a stereo file and make it into a dual mono, so I could use separate processing for each channel.

I exported the stereo file from the DAW and brought it back in, splitting the channels into L mono/R mono, bringing the 2 tracks back in. It lost lots of width and depth. What was I missing? Or was it probably just an 1D10t error?

Did you pan the two tracks (hard left and hard right) after you imported them?

[Franco]

Word to what you said, Bgrotto, and that point can't be stressed enough. I should have added a "major emphasis" right before I said "It's that tool that is used when a revision to a mix is not possible". It's the kind of tool that masterers typically don't like to use unless they have to, but when they have to, in a lot of cases they save the day (example would be a mix where the vocals are too loud. A masterer can break the mix into its M/S to try to bring the center channel down, but that may or may not help bringing down the vocal range, and that's where a MB comp can be of great help).

Smoke - instead of bouncing the track, then importing it to your session to hard pan the L & R channels, why don't you instead create two bus tracks in your DAW and send the output of your mix to them to process the L & R channel independently? In case you're a little lost in what I mean: Create two (mono) aux tracks and give one (for example) Bus 1 for the input, and Bus 2 for the second one. You then send the output of your master to the stereo bus (Bus 1&2). Insert the same EQ on both Bus tracks and go to work. Of course, the easiest way to do this is to use an EQ that does dual mono processing. As far as to why you're losing width in your bounce the way you're doing it now, it can be a phase issue (or something else, depending on how you're bouncing your track and splitting it on your DAW).