Make Vocals more upfront ?

[Alxi]

Originally Posted by phillysoulman

WRONG!!!!!
No thats not it.

Listen.....the reason to have your master fader at somewhere around -6 or there abouts, is so the ENTIRE mix has more headroom for you to use when doing your final mix.

Use ZERO vu as your reference point.

IMHO....MOST rap and hip hop "engineers" who are new to the game,do not have a clue as to how to record and mix.

I have seen and worked on MANY projects where the wave files are clipping because the client wants "banging kicks, basses, etc...but the idiot just doesnt comprehend the reason for headroom on his tracks.

Recording and mixing is an art and in order to play with the big boys you have to really know your shit...trust me.

I sure can see that you have more experience then me, i don't see why u have to be arrogant about it ?

I always make sure no tracks are clipping. I don't have the luxury to work with big analog console so when i saw OdB i was assuming it was in DBFS not in VU... hence my question. About the headroom , i get it, i was just finding it weird that someone was actually recommending to let the individuals tracks clip ... again, hence my question.

I'm here to learn and i don't ask that much questions but i will be sure to remind my self not to ask u anything else.

.... Trust me ;)

-Alxi-

[Musiclab]

Since the question is about getting the vocal upfront and not the sound, which with the chain you have shouldn't be an issue anyway, you need to compress the vocal on the way back, in other words in the mix, that will enable you to push it up, also you should spend time riding the vocal in the mix. Hip hop is about the rap so make sure that arrangement is complimenting the vocal, maybe you need to break the track down more.
Frankly telling you to boost a particular frequency without hearing the vocal and the track doesn't make alot of sense

[A Fak]

Quote:
Originally Posted by A Fak
The order varys by song, but i always start with 4 elements; kick, snare, vocals, and bass. I then add the rest of the elements.

If you can get those four elements right, then your 70% done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phillysoulman
hey..whatever floats your boat.
Im just giving helpful advice, and if you dont want to accept it, thats too bad

Actually I was kinda agreeing with you, Dick! But it does differ from song to song, but at least in hiphop these are usually the main\ most important elements. So, If you get them to gel and sit the way you want to everything else is a lot easier.

BUT, “Im just giving helpful advice, and if you don’t want to accept it, that’s too bad”

[Heezzi]

Originally Posted by Alxi

So in a way, it doesn't matter if the individual tracks are clipping as long as the master doesn't clip you're good, Right ?

-Alxi-

No, I was refering to individual channels clipping after effects. You don't want them at any point to clip... You have remeber the context I was stating:



After proccessing, the levels usualy clip on individual tracks so I just do that from jump (turn the levels down -6). My mixes will automaticly have enough headroom where the mastering engineer or myself will have enough room to work on the 2-track mix.


I was refering to turning all my individual tracks down -6.

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by Heezzi

I was refering to turning all my individual tracks down -6.

Why not just track 6db lower? Save yourself a gain stage.

[tonymission]

Originally Posted by bgrotto

Why not just track 6db lower? Save yourself a gain stage.

Cuz that just makes too much sense mane, come on...

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by tonymission

Cuz that just makes too much sense mane, come on...

Heh.

"We'll fix it in the mix!!"

[tonymission]

Originally Posted by bgrotto

Heh.

"We'll fix it in the mix!!"

"I mean, really... we don't have to redo that take, right? You can just fix it, make it sound all good, i dunno.... maybe you can put that computer sound on it? It's good enough for now. We'll just let you do you!"

"Um, you sure?"

"Do YOU!!! You're the engineer"

(thinking) "And you are .... ? NOT the talent, then?"

[TaazKareem]

Also a good idea is to make sure your vocal track isn't too sibilant, and make sure its natural sounding. Your vocal not sounding up front in the mix could be a result of a bad vocal recording and then you tucking it so the bad frequencies/inconsistencies don't pop out.

[phillysoulman]

Originally Posted by Alxi

I sure can see that you have more experience then me, i don't see why u have to be arrogant about it ?

I always make sure no tracks are clipping. I don't have the luxury to work with big analog console so when i saw OdB i was assuming it was in DBFS not in VU... hence my question. About the headroom , i get it, i was just finding it weird that someone was actually recommending to let the individuals tracks clip ... again, hence my question.

I'm here to learn and i don't ask that much questions but i will be sure to remind my self not to ask u anything else.

.... Trust me ;)

-Alxi-

Im not being arrogant...Im keeping real.

Since everybody and their mama talks about keeping it real...well....you got the picture,homes.

[phillysoulman]

Originally Posted by tonymission

"I mean, really... we don't have to redo that take, right? You can just fix it, make it sound all good, i dunno.... maybe you can put that computer sound on it? It's good enough for now. We'll just let you do you!"

"Um, you sure?"

"Do YOU!!! You're the engineer"

(thinking) "And you are .... ? NOT the talent, then?"

yeah son...jus put dat autotune joint on the 808 an Ima gon be the onliest mufukka wit a 809!!, ya heard????
fuk dat 808..

[tonymission]

Originally Posted by phillysoulman

yeah son...jus put dat autotune joint on the 808 an Ima gon be the onliest mufukka wit a 809!!, ya heard????
fuk dat 808..

hahahha, turn the bass up on my highs ;-)

(ok, im done, sorry... lol)

[phillysoulman]

Originally Posted by tonymission

hahahha, turn the bass up on my highs ;-)

(ok, im done, sorry... lol)

hey Tony..dont laugh...some mufukkas have actually said similar things..
This one idiot kept yelling.."more eq..more eq"..shit I must have cranked every parametric..graphic..you name it...until I turned up an "echo send" and thhen he said.."thats it son..thats it..thats what the fuk I was talkin bout....more eq!!!!!"

He meant ECHO!! the dumbass

[prw]

Besides using the UA LA2 to make the vocal pop, I boost at 11k to 14k to give the vocal the intelligibility. Works for me.

[tonymission]

Originally Posted by phillysoulman

hey Tony..dont laugh...some mufukkas have actually said similar things..
This one idiot kept yelling.."more eq..more eq"..shit I must have cranked every parametric..graphic..you name it...until I turned up an "echo send" and thhen he said.."thats it son..thats it..thats what the fuk I was talkin bout....more eq!!!!!"

He meant ECHO!! the dumbass

oh i know!! but im still laughin.. it just reminds me of the "stupid things" thread... as i recall, we both had some comical posts in that thread. ahhh, the life of an engineer. lol

[Heezzi]

Originally Posted by bgrotto

Why not just track 6db lower? Save yourself a gain stage.

Well if you working with syths and your midi volume is two high, on the audio track it will clip, you might what that certain tone but if you lower the volume it will change the timbre. Hence, lower the volume -6.

[Docmattic]

Originally Posted by Alxi

So in a way, it doesn't matter if the individual tracks are clipping as long as the master doesn't clip you're good, Right ?

-Alxi-

why would you want any of them to clip? its detrimental to your recording. If you have tracks clipping, turn every thing down (in scale) so it doesnt clip (and give it a decent amount of room, dont have it nearly clipping). THen people can turn their speakers/headphones or whatever right up without it distorting.

thats my understanding.

[Big 3rd]

1. Miking technique. If your vocal sounds distant when recorded...compressing, equing, and the "drier" sound will only do so much for it.
2. Less is more when compressing, which keeps your vocal bigger right out the gate. Remember, your vocal is biggest when not compressed at all. But the less you compress, the more critical balancing the elements will be when you bring them in...as crowding will happen at a quicker rate.
3. Pay close attention to the relativity of your vocal when bringing in other elements.
4. The "dryer", the closer.

Pretty much what has already been said...but these points IMO are thee most criitcal when trying to get the huge vocal.

[Trell Blaze]

Originally Posted by Big 3rd

2. Less is more when compressing,

That's not always true...especially when it comes to this particular vocal style. Often times a squashed vocal (with GREAT care paid to the ratio, attack, and release settings) is just what the doctor ordered.

If you do it right (and choose the right compressor for the job), it won't sound nearly as compressed as it actually is...

[Big 3rd]

Originally Posted by Trell Blaze

That's not always true...especially when it comes to this particular vocal style. Often times a squashed vocal (with GREAT care paid to the ratio, attack, and release settings) is just what the doctor ordered.

If you do it right (and choose the right compressor for the job), it won't sound nearly as compressed as it actually is...

Ok...I can agree with that. But really what I was getting at was the size of the vocal in the sound field. Yes, the proper compression can put the vocal in your face like a face pressed up against a window...but at the same time, it will be in a smaller window, so to speak. It's like, you can go for the bigger window frame and fill it up 65%...or you can go for the smaller window frame and have it fill up 90% of that space. But of course, in this analogy, the bigger the frame, the less room you have elsewhere. This is really what I was getting to. That is of course the downside, the upside is the little details will not become a victim to compression...only the lack of proper eqing and leveling.

That's why I compress very very little when recording...just in case the little details of the vocal become more important to me than the little details of the other elements. A lot of Scarface's songs have his vocal pretty buried in the mix...as oppose to say, a Dre mix, which can really put a vocal right in your face.

But nonetheless, you are right...if done properly, you can still knock a considerable amount of DBs off of a vocal and still have it sound pretty damn detailed and in your face.

But at the end of the day, compressing takes away, which makes it a "smaller window"...so it's really an illusion. But good job....good convo.

[Biggsheff]

I just take off 2-3db going in. I track at much lower db going in as I used too.
Just stay in the green. I don't push anything too hard. I can always turn the Monitors up. I kinda look at it like a car stereo. I turn the CD player volume up 25+ with a good signal. Sounds loud and clear. The next dude is like, dawg my shit is just as LOUD with the volume on 10. Yeah but your amps are about to melt and it sounds like shit. Just my experience.

[s.d.finley]

Originally Posted by phillysoulman

hey Tony..dont laugh...some mufukkas have actually said similar things..
This one idiot kept yelling.."more eq..more eq"..shit I must have cranked every parametric..graphic..you name it...until I turned up an "echo send" and thhen he said.."thats it son..thats it..thats what the fuk I was talkin bout....more eq!!!!!"

He meant ECHO!! the dumbass

ohh man I'm having deja vu!

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by Heezzi

Well if you working with syths and your midi volume is two high, on the audio track it will clip, you might what that certain tone but if you lower the volume it will change the timbre. Hence, lower the volume -6.

OK, fair enough. I'm spoiled by working with a desk and enough outboard to easily regulate levels to tape (or DAW, or whatever). Anyway, in the situation you mention, I'll find myself using the preamp with the separate gain AND output control to tailor exactly what needs to happen to tape; in our case, peaks that don't exceed -6dB. In fact, I take a very British approach by setting all faders at unity and getting sounds AND levels to work within the confines of unity gain. Better resolution at the fader, better signal-to-noise at the desk, and a no-bullshit/no-questions-asked mixing approach if the record leaves my studio for somebody else's.

[phillysoulman]

Originally Posted by bgrotto

OK, fair enough. I'm spoiled by working with a desk and enough outboard to easily regulate levels to tape (or DAW, or whatever). Anyway, in the situation you mention, I'll find myself using the preamp with the separate gain AND output control to tailor exactly what needs to happen to tape; in our case, peaks that don't exceed -6dB. In fact, I take a very British approach by setting all faders at unity and getting sounds AND levels to work within the confines of unity gain. Better resolution at the fader, better signal-to-noise at the desk, and a no-bullshit/no-questions-asked mixing approach if the record leaves my studio for somebody else's.

I Second that emotion

[Heezzi]

Originally Posted by bgrotto

OK, fair enough. I'm spoiled by working with a desk and enough outboard to easily regulate levels to tape (or DAW, or whatever). Anyway, in the situation you mention, I'll find myself using the preamp with the separate gain AND output control to tailor exactly what needs to happen to tape; in our case, peaks that don't exceed -6dB. In fact, I take a very British approach by setting all faders at unity and getting sounds AND levels to work within the confines of unity gain. Better resolution at the fader, better signal-to-noise at the desk, and a no-bullshit/no-questions-asked mixing approach if the record leaves my studio for somebody else's.

Well you really can't do that with soft synts unless you outputing to a board.

[computa]

Originally Posted by Biggsheff

Vox Chain - Peluso 2247 LE > API A2D > DBX 160X > Nuendo. I'm tryin to get the Vox to stand out front more. Most tracks I hear its like the Vox pop out right on the edge of the monitors. To me the ones I've been mixing sound too far back. I only take off about 2-3db going in. Compress the lead about 4db and the double about 8db and blend in. Roll off about 120 down. I try not to add too much Eq. Just take away what sounds bad. Add some delay maybe a little Reverb. Also should I be tracking at a higher sample rate, higher than 44.1 ?


Sample of Vox.

MySpace.com - SOUTHERN STATE PRODUCTIONS - Pensacola, Florida - Rap / Hip Hop - MySpace.com - SOUTHERN STATE PRODUCTIONS - Pensacola, Florida - Rap / Hip Hop - www.myspace.com/southernstateproductions

IMHO,

do ur roll of at 100hz. try bringing out 5.5khz a little on eq for bite. and a little around 10.5khz. manage the levels of ur doubles and adlibz better- they r swamping the lead.

been using waves renvox for a few. it pushes vocals out front. so does waves api comp.

[Biggsheff]

I do roll off at 100. Sometimes a little higher. I also add some air around 10k. Maybe I should have eqed some freq out of the 2 track to help it cut through. Yeah the back vocals do seem high. On some tracks you can barely hear them, but then again Rick Ross stacks pretty loud. I'm going try track another song soon and keep all these good tips in mind. Hopefully I can repost soon. Once again thanks for all the feedback.