Make Vocals more upfront ?

[phillysoulman]

Originally Posted by EKG Productions

Thats whats up. I'm really not feeling Phillys point bout turning the master down six db. In the analog world on an SSL 4000G it sounds like sh*t and in the digital world in most programs I have used it begans to smear things a little. For me if you run into an issue where things need to come down several db, its always best to do it on individually track by track. If you are mixing into a 2bus comp then you have to change some settings depending on how hard you were hitting it but for the most part this is what I have found works. Thats just my take as always do what works for you.

Listen..you may not be FEELING me but...I do know what I am talking about.

You need some HEADROOM on your 2bus for any mastering plugs or for your ME to work with.
Its plain and simple, and in time you will learn just what I am talking about.

[Biggsheff]

I know things depend on the song, the singer etc. How wide should I be panning vocal stacks. If 100 is hard left or right. Like on a hook I've done 3 takes of a lead, panned center, 1 panned 40 left an right. Stacks panned as far out as 80 left an right. I guess it could be just personal preference. Any other way I might need to look at panning Vox.

[phillysoulman]

Originally Posted by Biggsheff

I know things depend on the song, the singer etc. How wide should I be panning vocal stacks. If 100 is hard left or right. Like on a hook I've done 3 takes of a lead, panned center, 1 panned 40 left an right. Stacks panned as far out as 80 left an right. I guess it could be just personal preference. Any other way I might need to look at panning Vox.

On r&b bv stacks, I usually record four passes of each note....if there are three notes in your chord, then I will usually record low.times four..mid times four and high times four.

Now I pan EACH TRACK in succession hard left, hard right, hard left hard right...go all the way thru all twelve tracks this way.
You SHOULD get a nice silky blend depending in the attitude of thje vocal performances.

Make a group out of all 12 faders.
Highlight your 12 faders you wish for your group

In PT go to Track/group/
You wil see the 12 tracks in the box and remove what doesnt belong there.
Clicjk OK
Now you can control the entire bvs with just one of those faders.
DO NOT put your return track there for obvious reasons.


Now....open an aux return with a nice smooth eq..maybe Sonalkiss...
boost a little maybe 11 kz....a little 5kz..if the vocs have too much low-mid buildup then hi pass at around mqybe 300hz or find the frequency which is the culprit and hi pass from that point.

Bus send each of your bv tracks to that aux return.

Now open another aux return with a nice smooth vocal plate and bus send your vocs there as well all the time making sure to balance your sends and returns accordingly.
See what happens.

[moracspace]

Originally Posted by irthwirm

are you serious.... Don't listen to moracspace he's trying to be a smart ass.. try boosting around 250 hz at about 12 db

Don't listen to moracspace he's trying to be a smart ass
I thought I did a pretty good job at it!

[qubi]

Originally Posted by Biggsheff

I didn't track this trough my gear. It was tracked at another studio. I used most of the tips I was given. Serial compression, Eq suggestions etc. Its a verse snippet. Just tryin to see if I'm gettin closer or shootin myself in the foot.

new to this thread but i just heard the sample so i thought i'd chime in.. Sounds pretty good to me, I don't think I'd compress anymore, maybe automate levels a bit if needed to bring out some words. I think it could use a bit more presence (3-5K), and maybe less low mids. To me, the rapper's voice seems to have a lot of low mid, and its part of his character, but could be cleared up a bit. Maybe sweep through the frequencies and see where you can take out without loosing too much of the vocal quality, and add some hi mids for definition. also, you could look at some of the synths, (even the hats), and see if notching out certain freq's help bring the vox in focus more. Sometimes a multiband comp (like waves c4) works to tame the lows, and bring up the presence in a controlled manner. best of luck

[Biggsheff]

I'm not sure what mic it was recorded on, but the raw Vocal track is real muddy. Sounds too distant. I boosted at 8k which to my ears seemed like it cleared up a a lot. I probably should have cut first, now that I think about it. After tracking a double of a lead should I roll off the low end higher than 100HZ. On stacks also, were would be a good place to start rolling off. I'm not sure if it was stacks or adlibs but I read on here somewhere that the person rolled off as high as 900hz. The music we record is mostly southern rap if that makes a difference in anyones approach. Sorry if I'm askin so many questions. I'm not used to gettin responses to posts. I try to ask serious questions. Not like what preset do I use on Waves " X " plugin. I just have a messed up way of learning things. I understand what everyone is saying, I hope I'm just applying it I as should.

[Trell Blaze]

Originally Posted by Biggsheff

I'm not sure what mic it was recorded on, but the raw Vocal track is real muddy. Sounds too distant. I boosted at 8k which to my ears seemed like it cleared up a a lot. I probably should have cut first, now that I think about it. After tracking a double of a lead should I roll off the low end higher than 100HZ. On stacks also, were would be a good place to start rolling off. I'm not sure if it was stacks or adlibs but I read on here somewhere that the person rolled off as high as 900hz. The music we record is mostly southern rap if that makes a difference in anyones approach. Sorry if I'm askin so many questions. I'm not used to gettin responses to posts. I try to ask serious questions. Not like what preset do I use on Waves " X " plugin. I just have a messed up way of learning things. I understand what everyone is saying, I hope I'm just applying it I as should.

Keep in mind that you're not going to get it right just by doing what we tell you. This is only a starting point. You will only truely get it through practice, practice, and more practice. If you're not hearing the exact results you want right now, don't get discouraged.

[Big 3rd]

Originally Posted by Trell Blaze

Keep in mind that you're not going to get it right just by doing what we tell you. This is only a starting point. You will only truely get it through practice, practice, and more practice. If you're not hearing the exact results you want right now, don't get discouraged.

Very true. Early on, when I had a lot less experience, I'd received some direct advice from T. Dizzle and others, I tried it, it helped...but it really didn't come together until I understood exactly what I was doing and why I was given that advice. It's almost like taking in the info and turning it into some form of concept that makes sense to you personally.

I think the biggest breakthrough you can make as an engineer is actually knowing what you want to hear before you touch one knob and when you do touch that knob, why that knob and not the other ones, and what results it WILL give you...not SHOULD Of course, in order to get to that point, you do have to go through those growing pains, those experiments. When I first started, Ken Lewis told me to just keep mixing and I'll be happy. Nothing could be more true. Eventually it just becomes clear to you....clear on what you need to do for certain results. But what's funny though is...it's not like other crafts where you can tell someone what to do and they will instantly know the concept. This shit does teach you how to listen. It really does. And once you know how to listen, you will start knowing what things heed certain results.

Just keep doing it man...fight through the frustration.

[Heezzi]

Originally Posted by Biggsheff

I'm not sure what mic it was recorded on, but the raw Vocal track is real muddy. Sounds too distant. I boosted at 8k which to my ears seemed like it cleared up a a lot. I probably should have cut first, now that I think about it. After tracking a double of a lead should I roll off the low end higher than 100HZ. On stacks also, were would be a good place to start rolling off. I'm not sure if it was stacks or adlibs but I read on here somewhere that the person rolled off as high as 900hz. The music we record is mostly southern rap if that makes a difference in anyones approach. Sorry if I'm askin so many questions. I'm not used to gettin responses to posts. I try to ask serious questions. Not like what preset do I use on Waves " X " plugin. I just have a messed up way of learning things. I understand what everyone is saying, I hope I'm just applying it I as should.

Let me take a stab at it... I show you my techniques. Hit me up.

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by phillysoulman

hey Tony..dont laugh...some mufukkas have actually said similar things..
This one idiot kept yelling.."more eq..more eq"..shit I must have cranked every parametric..graphic..you name it...until I turned up an "echo send" and thhen he said.."thats it son..thats it..thats what the fuk I was talkin bout....more eq!!!!!"

He meant ECHO!! the dumbass

LOL Classic stuff.....deja vu city is in sight, full steam ahead!

Man, I must stop laughing soon.....LOL

[phillysoulman]

Originally Posted by Karloff70

LOL Classic stuff.....deja vu city is in sight, full steam ahead!

Man, I must stop laughing soon.....LOL

Heres another classic..from the book of idiots..
This dude says.."yo mufukka... put the kick on the left..put tha snare on the right...put that singin jawn on the left and the hoes on the right...and I told him thats not the way its done.
So the idiot says "whatchu mean mufukka.!!.I wuz hangin wit...__________ up in New York an he told me that you gots to have separation on yo' shit!!!

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by phillysoulman

Heres another classic..from the book of idiots..
This dude says.."yo mufukka... put the kick on the left..put tha snare on the right...put that singin jawn on the left and the hoes on the right...and I told him thats not the way its done.
So the idiot says "whatchu mean mufukka.!!.I wuz hangin wit...__________ up in New York an he told me that you gots to have separation on yo' shit!!!

LOOOOOL..."whatchu maen mufukka"...indeed LOOOL Beautiful sixtoe behaviour at its finest....check their toes on the way into the studio. Let only ones with a nice set of five inside

[phillysoulman]

Originally Posted by Karloff70

LOOOOOL..."whatchu maen mufukka"...indeed LOOOL Beautiful sixtoe behaviour at its finest....check their toes on the way into the studio. Let only ones with a nice set of five inside

uhh..what about camel toes??

[Karloff70]

And if there's six you gots to separate that sh!t from da other five on the double

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by phillysoulman

uhh..what about camel toes??

Keep your hands clear of them, holmes.....your fingers be itchin.....

[phillysoulman]

Originally Posted by Karloff70

Keep your hands clear of them, holmes.....your fingers be itchin.....

sht..with the way them hoes are today, those joints gon' shrivel up when you touch that camel toe,ya heard??
better wear a hand condom...or a tongue-dom

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by phillysoulman

sht..with the way them hoes are today, those joints gon' shrivel up when you touch that camel toe,ya heard??
better wear a hand condom...or a tongue-dom

And keep some headroom spare for all the unexpected toes that might arrive......if you don't start the 2-bus low and suddenly a load of 6-toed fu**ers enter the mix you're going to suffer some nasty toe-distortion and you'll have to chuck 'em all out and start again..... Not to mention the cameltoe peaking in the chorus block.....

[phillysoulman]

Originally Posted by Karloff70

And keep some headroom spare for all the unexpected toes that might arrive......if you don't start the 2-bus low and suddenly a load of 6-toed fu**ers enter the mix you're going to suffer some nasty toe-distortion and you'll have to chuck 'em all out and start again..... Not to mention the cameltoe peaking in the chorus block.....

Does Jigga have a Joe Cameltoe??

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by phillysoulman

Listen..you may not be FEELING me but...I do know what I am talking about.

You need some HEADROOM on your 2bus for any mastering plugs or for your ME to work with.
Its plain and simple, and in time you will learn just what I am talking about.

To clarify the point:

There really are a few potential problems with turning down the master fader. First of all, on most desks, 0VU RMS will leave more than enough headroom for any ME, plugin, or whatever. My studio's desk is calibrated to 0VU = -18dBfs, and that generally means that my most extreme peaks land at -6dB MAX. For desks calibrated at -14dBfs, even the most highly-transient programs will leave a few dB of headroom when they hit the A/D. Second of all, pulling down the master fader doesn't decrease the level hitting the mix buss. At least on every desk and DAW I've ever used, the master fader is gain POST-summing. Meaning, if you're +6VU on the mix buss, and you pull your fader down 6db, you're still hitting the mix buss at +6. Or if you're clipping the mix buss in your DAW, and you pull down that master fader till the clip indicators go away, you're still clipping the mix buss!! The master fader is simply lowering your FINAL OUTPUT to tape (or DAW, disk, or whatever). In addition, lowering the master fader typically affects your levels going to any plugins or hardware inserts you've initiated on your master track in your DAW. So let's say you're compressing your 2-mix using your favorite compressor on the master fader. If you lower that fader, you're lowering the level to the compressor, thus changing the sound and balance of the mix. (on a side note, this is the reason you should NEVER perform a fadeout ending on a tune you're mixing; leave that for the mastering engineer).

The only time to pull the master fader back is when you're working on a desk that likes to have its mix buss hit HARD, and you want to leave some headroom on the final mix DAT, DAW file, tape, or whatever. Otherwise, leave it alone!

[Beyersound]

Originally Posted by Biggsheff

Vox Chain - Peluso 2247 LE > API A2D > DBX 160X > Nuendo. I'm tryin to get the Vox to stand out front more. Most tracks I hear its like the Vox pop out right on the edge of the monitors. To me the ones I've been mixing sound too far back. I only take off about 2-3db going in. Compress the lead about 4db and the double about 8db and blend in. Roll off about 120 down. I try not to add too much Eq. Just take away what sounds bad. Add some delay maybe a little Reverb. Also should I be tracking at a higher sample rate, higher than 44.1 ?


Sample of Vox.

MySpace.com - SOUTHERN STATE PRODUCTIONS - Pensacola, Florida - Rap / Hip Hop - www.myspace.com/southernstateproductions

More compression, but with an opto or vari-mu. The 160x will just take more high end away and make things sound compressed in a bad way. The compression will bring up the quieter syllables, bringing the vocal forward. 44.1 is fine. don't be afraid to add some air with a premium EQ. Of course starting with the right mic for the singer is most important, it will also obviously require less EQ.
j

[Blyn52]

Originally Posted by phillysoulman

hey Tony..dont laugh...some mufukkas have actually said similar things..
This one idiot kept yelling.."more eq..more eq"..shit I must have cranked every parametric..graphic..you name it...until I turned up an "echo send" and thhen he said.."thats it son..thats it..thats what the fuk I was talkin bout....more eq!!!!!"

He meant ECHO!! the dumbass

I can relate to most of the dumbasses who can't comprehend guidlines in production....

WOW

[phillysoulman]

Originally Posted by Blyn52

I can relate to most of the dumbasses who can't comprehend guidlines in production....

WOW

One time, there was a dumbass in the studio who said to me..lemme have some of dat "akkus"...AKKUS...I said what the fuk is akkus...is it something that you eat with saltfish like aki??
he said "no..mufukka..I want some of dat dere akkus"!!

Anyway....he also meant ECHO..or actually reverb!!!

Another time I told some rapper idiot that I would have to put a limiter on his vocal... and then he says.."mothafukka....alla yalls always tryna keep a brotha down!!
So I said..whatch mean,bro??
He says...I dont want nothin to LIMIT the sales of my shit!!!!

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by phillysoulman

One time, there was a dumbass in the studio who said to me..lemme have some of dat "akkus"...AKKUS...I said what the fuk is akkus...is it something that you eat with saltfish like aki??
he said "no..mufukka..I want some of dat dere akkus"!!

Anyway....he also meant ECHO..or actually reverb!!!

Another time I told some rapper idiot that I would have to put a limiter on his vocal... and then he says.."mothafukka....alla yalls always tryna keep a brotha down!!
So I said..whatch mean,bro??
He says...I dont want nothin to LIMIT the sales of my shit!!!!

dat dere akkus.....LOOOL definitely adopting that one for future use!

[rickrock305]

Originally Posted by phillysoulman

Another time I told some rapper idiot that I would have to put a limiter on his vocal... and then he says.."mothafukka....alla yalls always tryna keep a brotha down!!
So I said..whatch mean,bro??
He says...I dont want nothin to LIMIT the sales of my shit!!!!

Wow. I'll say it again...wow.