Classic hardware (sp1200, s950, mpc, eps, asr etc) tips & tricks.

[dialectic]

I previous started a thread regarding classic hip hop hardware (mainly focusing on samplers, but hey, anything goes!) to see who was still using what. In this thread there were a few posts regarding production techniques people employed when using such hardware. I thought that it may be a good idea to start a seperate thread to explore this further.
Ok for starters...
Obviously most of you are gonna know of this old school technique, but is anyone still sampling into their 12bit machines @45RPM and then pitching the samples down within the sampler to get that grimey sound to their drums etc?

[beat you down]

yeah i pitch stuff up an octave then sample it then pitch it down an octave to get that lo-res sound.

[phillysoulman]

I still use my ASR X for certain sounds,(Urban Card) as well as sometimes using it as an exf unit, as its the same as an Ensoniq DP4.

I also sometimes route a bss of kick thru a 1680, and sometimes thru the efx card.

Proteus 2000 for some "weirdness",if needed.

Believe it or not there are a few algorithms on my old Alesis Wedge that I may use for certain things.

I also have three Lang tube equlizers for the "Pultec" thing.

[terrytee]

Sweetspot's

These are the points that the sampler shines at or in other words getting the best level out the unit. For the s950 i found it was often a little over peak. Also kind of similar on the MPC3000.

[dialectic]

Originally Posted by beat you down

yeah i pitch stuff up an octave then sample it then pitch it down an octave to get that lo-res sound.

Doesnt it sound great pitching down on those old 12bit machines. When pitching down on the SP12 / 1200 it sounds totally unique though, it creates that strange ring modulation type sound.

In addition to this, other reasons that i love my SP are:
The low end thump that it adds to drums.
The analogue filters.
The sequencer.
The 'realtime' tweakability of the faders.
Its simplicity.

Any tips regarding the SP?

[dialectic]

I was reading an article regardin the production techniques of Hank Shocklee of the bomb squad (Red Bull Music Academy :: TUTORS) and in it he talks about using the Emu SP-1200:
"the 1200 has 8 outs on the back. When you want to record each different instrument onto different tracks, I would never use them. I hated the ****ing sound out of that. So because there is a different type of a sound that you get out of the mix-out, alright? The sound is a lot more compressed, you get a little more attack, you get a little more meat on it."
Now I use an SP-12 (which i believe is the same as the 1200 apart from the 5 secs less sample time, lack of built in drive and a slightly higher sample rate) but i have never found the mix out to sound this way. I know that the individual outs are filtered but these filters can also be applied on the mix out also. In other words, if on pad 1 i have a snare sample and i assign that to output 3, it will be assigned to output 3 along with the filter for that output but the sample will also appear at the mix out with the same filter applied?
In addition to this he also states that:
"if you take that mix-out output and you put the plug-in half way, it filters the sound"
I have never found my SP12 to do this. Are these things only effective on the 1200 and not the 12? Has anyone else found that their SP 12/1200 works in the same way?

[WideawakE]

dxarmy.com sp1200 forum :: Index

for all your SP1200 needs!

[dialectic]

Originally Posted by WideawakE

dxarmy.com sp1200 forum :: Index

for all your SP1200 needs!

Nice 1! thumbsup

[JaeOne3345]

Here is an old post I made on mpc-forums where i outlined some tips for using the s950.

"Chopping on the s950 is easy and fast. But then again I dont like that "autochop" garbage that a lot of gear has today.

If theres a loop I wanna chop I just make enough copies of that loop based on how many chops I want. (This is where the ram upgrade is a must).

The key is to always remember the end point of your previous sample and use this as the start point of your next. I can chop **** up super quick on it like this. Don't forget "edit sample" pg. 10 to truncate left over material.

Other things that help:
- On pg. 2 of edit sample, make sure Selected program is set to the name of your program, not monitor. This will allow you to chop while your sequence in playing and a few other things. Everyone raves about doing this on newer mpc's and new OS upgrades but you could do this with an external sampler like the s950 for ever. (good looks to DFACE for this pointer).

-The space button will let you bounce between the two last visited pages under whatever category you are working on within the s950. So if you gotta work between two pages for a little bit, no need to use the key pad or the control wheel, just one button and bam you're there. **Make sure you press enter in the page u want the space button to "remember"**

-When I use a sp-1200, I have a preset Keygroup disc that I "boot" the s950 up with. This gives me 32 keygroups that are already set to the sp-1200 32 possible empty pads.
So when I chop I dont fool around with Keygroups and high and low ranges. That takes forever. I just place the samples where they need to go.

-Make sure you learn to use midi offset for each Keygroups. This allows you to have different kg's respond to different midi channels on samplers that will support this (sp1200 doesnt, but mpc, asr, eps, etc do).

Why?? Since the s950 can only play one program at a time. You might need the full keyboard range on a bass stab sample and this range might cover the keys you used for your drum samples. Put their keygroups on different midi channels and they are now independent and do not conflict (unless they are assigned to the same sound output)

-Decay used to confuse me on the s950. If you want to have the decay work on things like one shots, make sure the sustain value has been changed as well.

S950 is a beast no matter how you cut it. That thing will always have a place in the studio. Its just to straight forward and easy to operate.

If you are an sp12/1200 user as well and you wan't to make a keygroup boot disc for your s950, use this chart I put together. DFACE has had it up on the sp-1200 forums for a while. It'll tell you what notes to use for your High and Low key ranges when you make keygroups on the s950.
http://img272.imageshack.us/img272/9045/spchart13ck.jpg


Don't forget to check the beats:
MySpace.com - Jae One - CORONA, CALIFORNIA - www.myspace.com/jaeone3345 "

If anyone needs help working time stretch on the 950 ill speak on that later. its mad easy and its amazing how fast the stretch is.

[dialectic]

When fine tuning the start points of your drum samples on the SP, try this:

1. First, pitch down the sample that you are editing. By doing this it allows you to hear the start point in much finer detail.
2. Set the quantise value/auto correct to hi-res.
3. Enter 'sample truncate' mode and select the relevant sample.
4. Hold down the 'tap repeat' button while holding down the relevant sample pad at the same time.
5. With quantize/auto correct set to 'hi-re', the beginning of the sample will now be re-trigged in quick succession.
6. Slowly adjust the start point with the faders until you hear the initial part of the sample being trigged.
7. Return the sample to its appropriate pitch.

Although this can be helpful, ultimately it is all about trusting your ears.

[ginsuthaironchef]

I dig your beats Jae One. I'm from the IE too. U ever go to Foundations back in the day? U know Soul Profess, Triune, Dead Eye, ne those cats?

I've been trying to figure out a way to chop on the s950 for ever. Some one explained a very tedious time consuming way of doin it on the MPC60 once.

Hit me up on ginsuthaironchef@hotmail.com

I would like to borrow some more of your S950 wizardry if you will spare it.

One MPC 60 3.1 OS tip I would suggest is ugrading to a ZIPdrive. If you use it simply to sequence via S950 like I do, then you can hold a couple hundred sequences,songs, and programs on one zip, which is a hell of alot easier than loading a floppy for each joint. Can't get around this on the S950 of course.

Also, turn the time correct/swing off until AFTER you sequence your drums.

This is a great thread btw.
Keep the 12bit crunch and lofi punch alive!

[ginsuthaironchef]

I guess this one's not really specific to classic hardware, but a friend told me once to never put my disks on my turbtable platter, because the magnet under the platter can screw up your floppies.

[dialectic]

Originally Posted by ginsuthaironchef

I guess this one's not really specific to classic hardware, but a friend told me once to never put my disks on my turbtable platter, because the magnet under the platter can screw up your floppies.

And NEVER try playing your vinyl in the floppy drive!

Seriously though, you made a good point. It is wise for people to take heed of this warning.

[dialectic]

I've been trying to figure out a way to chop on the s950 for ever. Some one explained a very tedious time consuming way of doin it on the MPC60 once.

Hey ginsuthaironchef.
Like JaeOne3345 said, choppin' on the S950 is a breeze once you get into the flow. This is how I tackle the situation:

Lets just say that I have sampled a 1 bar drum break that i have named 'DRUMS 1' and i wanna chop that into quarters.
1. copy the sample and name it say 'DRUMS 1A' and adjust the end point of the sample to where the 2nd beat of the bar is about to come in, which would usually be the snare.
2. Copy this sample and call the copy 'DRUMS 1B'.
3. Now go back to 'DRUMS 1A' and trim the sample (discard before start, after end) which will leave you with just the 1st quarter of the drum break (From the first beat of the bar to just before the 2nd beat/snare comes in).
4. Now return to 'DRUMS 1B' and go to the 'end point' screen. Whatever your end point reads is what your new 'start point' will be so wind the 'end point' right til the end of the sample and then punch in these digit as your new start point. 'DRUMS 1B' now continues exactly where 'DRUMS 1A' left off, at the start of beat 2 of the bar - the snare .
5. With the start point set and the end point set as far as it will go, trim the sample (Discard before start, after end)
6. Now wind the 'end point' back to where the 3rd beat of the bar is about to come in, copy this sample and name it 'DRUMS 1C'
7. continue in this manner and you will end up with:

• DRUMS 1 - ORIGINAL 1 BAR DRUM BREAK IN ITS ENTIRETY .
• DRUMS 1A - FROM BEAT 1 OF THE BAR TO BEGINNING OF BEAT 2.
• DRUMS 1B - FROM BEAT 2 OF THE BAR TO BEGINNING OF BEAT 3.
• DRUMS 1C - FROM BEAT 3 OF THE BAR TO BEGINNING OF BEAT 4.
• DRUMS 1D - FROM BEAT 4 OF THE BAR TO END OF SAMPLE.

This method can be applied to every drum hit in the break if you so wish. It may look like a lot of bother when its written down here but trust me, it will become so intuitive. Hope this helps.

[ginsuthaironchef]

Thanks dialectic, I went home and tried chopping on the S950. Extremely useful. Thanks for the tip.

Here's how some one explained to me how to chop on the MPC60.

Record and save a sample that you want to chop.
then go back to the sampling screen and set your sample time to 0.1 second and sample nothing (silence). If your Threshhold is too high it won't trigger the sample with silence, but if you have your Turntable hooked up and the needle on the record (which, since you are sample, should be the case) you just need to bump the TT or the table it's on and it will trigger the sampler without sampling any noise. Silence is not critical though.

save the sample and do it a few times (for as many chops as you need).

The go to the main sample in the edit sample page (Sounds > 6).
Set the play X button (Soft Button 3) to play zone [it's on the right, second field from the bottom] and set the zone on what you want to extract.

Once you got it, hit copy zone to temp.
Then go to one of the blank samples, still in Edit sample screen, the zone should be set to .100 on both start and end.
Go to the the button field at the lower right where you select copy to temp and delete before soft start, etc. Change that to INS TEMP TO ZONE END.
Once that's copied, you need to set the soft start and soft end how you want it, wide open if you zoned it right, but the soft start should be at 000.100.00 which is the silence that created the sample.
Then go back to the menu and set it to delete before soft start so you can delete the silent 0.100 that you started with when you press .

I'm quick with that now. It sounds more complicated than it is, once you do it a few times you zip along. Its not the fastest method, most of my samples I just do straight from vinyl, but if I grab a bunch of hits in a sample, I'll zone them out this way.

the smaller the zone the less time it takes, so I tend to use it for drums, whatever the longest section of the sample is, that's what I keep there and then zone out the smaller bits I want.

at it's worst it takes about a minute, but it can feel like forever, sometimes it takes a while and you just gotta leave it alone, also you gotta make sure that where you are pasting is right in the zone field, I had an error once where I had the zones at zero and I pasted something and the machine stayed pasting for too long so I shut down, I consider that a crash, but I did something stupid, that's why it happened,

The something stupid was:

I deleted the .1 second section before pasting, so the sample had no data, and the zone was still set to 00.100.00 so it was trying to paste in a non existant location. It only was possible because I delete the silent sample first, the zone settings didn't update, normally it won't let you set the zone beyond the sample length.

be patient, it can really give good results. Another good thing is if you set the zone to how you want it but don't have a silent sample to paste to, you can go sample it and then go back to the sample edit screen and your zone stays how you set it unless you switch sounds in the edit screen. When you hit sounds 6 after sampling the silence, you go right back to the same sample with your zone settings Intact. Copy it into temp then you go to the new silent sample and paste. I am not sure if you can copy the zone to temp and then sample the silence, I wouldn't recomend it though, I think the temp memory would be cleared when you enter sampling.

I like the control of sampling into the 60, I can turn stuff up or down and get different results, plus I love chopping on the 60, for longer samples I just back cue the record and sample and trim again, but for short things I do the zones, and sometimes for long things depends if I am feeling impatient or not.

Everyone witha 60 should know how to do this and try it at least once, and get to know that do it menu, it's got play before zone, after zone, before soft start, after soft start, so you can do really precise chops and edits like pulling out pops and clicks with the Silence zone feature.

[goldenmean]

JaeOne3345, nice tips man! i had no idea you could set 950 up to chop while the sequence plays back, that is BAD! throw your timestretch tips down, im interested!

-sp1200 filters 1 and 2 add a weird sort of frequency slope on the attack, so alot of people dont mess with them. they can still be good, even for kicks though. sample your sound with a little bit of silence at the beginning and put it on 1 or 2. truncate it so you get it close enough but the slope doesnt effect the sample. that way the sloping sound wont actually be heard when the sample comes in, it will be a flat filter. then just sequence it with quantize off (it will need to come in earlier than normal) but it works well. if you get crazy with chops 1 and 2 will especially smooth over the seams nice, almost like a compressor.

[Justice]

Awesome thread!

[dialectic]

Originally Posted by goldenmean

JaeOne3345, nice tips man! i had no idea you could set 950 up to chop while the sequence plays back, that is BAD! throw your timestretch tips down, im interested!

-sp1200 filters 1 and 2 add a weird sort of frequency slope on the attack, so alot of people dont mess with them. they can still be good, even for kicks though. sample your sound with a little bit of silence at the beginning and put it on 1 or 2. truncate it so you get it close enough but the slope doesnt effect the sample. that way the sloping sound wont actually be heard when the sample comes in, it will be a flat filter. then just sequence it with quantize off (it will need to come in earlier than normal) but it works well. if you get crazy with chops 1 and 2 will especially smooth over the seams nice, almost like a compressor.

Outputs 1 & 2 have a a fast decaying low pass filter which allows the initial part of the sample to sneak through before the filter kicks in. I think it was designed this way to preserve the attack of the drum sample but this isnt always appropriate and can be a pain in the arse. However, If you dont want your sample to be bright and unfiltered at the begining try EQ'ing the highs out before sampling. This way you get the pleasure of those SP low pass filters without the bright 'attack' spoiling your sample.

[powarule]

TIP:

Get a Emax I Rack.


forget the other 12bit samplers.


j/k

[e-smile-z]

oowee i luv my emax 1 dirtbag#!!!

run bird run bird!!!!!!

[JaeOne3345]

I work similar to dialectic.

If I have a 1 bar loop and I know I wanna chop it into 4ths I create 4 copies and adjust the start and end point of each. It is extremely** fast once you get into it. With the preset keygroups already made it's even iller cuz you just drop your chops where they need to be so fast.

Ginsu, some of those names sound familiar but honestly I am a hermit on the music tip. Hit me up at JaeOne3345@gmail.com or AIM me at Flipwon and I can help you out.

[cpu]

This thread is one of the reasons why i started coming here in the first place a few years back. I'm gonna crank up the 950 when i get home today and try a couple of these slicing tricks...i pretty much only used it for drums before...
good lookin' out, jaeone and others!

[electric]

Originally Posted by dialectic

I previous started a thread regarding classic hip hop hardware (mainly focusing on samplers, but hey, anything goes!) to see who was still using what. In this thread there were a few posts regarding production techniques people employed when using such hardware. I thought that it may be a good idea to start a seperate thread to explore this further.
Ok for starters...
Obviously most of you are gonna know of this old school technique, but is anyone still sampling into their 12bit machines @45RPM and then pitching the samples down within the sampler to get that grimey sound to their drums etc?

i like to use the above trick and then hit the s950 a bit over like others have mentioned. then also experiment between several DI's to see if they enhance the "meat" factor.

great river mp2nv DI
desk doctor DI
countryman DI
api mic pre DI

the DI's can change the transients for better or for worse. sometimes they make a good thing even better.

[PettyCash]

Originally Posted by electric

i like to use the above trick and then hit the s950 a bit over like others have mentioned. then also experiment between several DI's to see if they enhance the "meat" factor.

great river mp2nv DI
desk doctor DI
countryman DI
api mic pre DI

the DI's can change the transients for better or for worse. sometimes they make a good thing even better.

For stuff like hi hats, snares, claps, cymbals, shakers and other percussion, I like running them through the great river DI. There is a certain setting that I dial in by ear that really gives each sample more meat and punch, while adding something nice to the treble range of each sound.

[electric]

Originally Posted by PettyCash

For stuff like hi hats, snares, claps, cymbals, shakers and other percussion, I like running them through the great river DI. There is a certain setting that I dial in by ear that really gives each sample more meat and punch, while adding something nice to the treble range of each sound.

thumbsupthumbsup much more flexibility on great river because you can mess with the DI gain staging both on input and output side of things. its an awesome DI for hiphop drums.

[PhonoquO]

Great thread! I recently got a mint Sp-12 Turbo and am looking to sequence my emax with it. Any advice or tricks would be appreciated. Previously i was just using the emax for resampling, but i really want to build up an efficient workflow like the amazing 950 workflow discussed by dialetic and jaeone. Thanks in advance!

Mrk

[walth]

Originally Posted by dialectic

When fine tuning the start points of your drum samples on the SP, try this:

1. First, pitch down the sample that you are editing. By doing this it allows you to hear the start point in much finer detail.
2. Set the quantise value/auto correct to hi-res.
3. Enter 'sample truncate' mode and select the relevant sample.
4. Hold down the 'tap repeat' button while holding down the relevant sample pad at the same time.
5. With quantize/auto correct set to 'hi-re', the beginning of the sample will now be re-trigged in quick succession.
6. Slowly adjust the start point with the faders until you hear the initial part of the sample being trigged.
7. Return the sample to its appropriate pitch.

Although this can be helpful, ultimately it is all about trusting your ears.

cool tip

[utters]

I've got an SP-12 Turbo in the post to me this very second

this thread has me HYPED

there's a post on the SP1200 forum about increasing the sampling time on the SP-12 to 10 seconds if you create a custom soundbank or something... sounds interesting...

[PhonoquO]

Originally Posted by utters

I've got an SP-12 Turbo in the post to me this very second

this thread has me HYPED

there's a post on the SP1200 forum about increasing the sampling time on the SP-12 to 10 seconds if you create a custom soundbank or something... sounds interesting...

Prepare to be blown away by the warm gritty sound it produces, especially when detuned. The user interface of the sp's was so far ahead of its time. It's great to work creatively with limitations, cause nowadays computers offer too many options.


Sent from my HTC Desire using Gearslutz.com App

[peterpiper0815]

Originally Posted by dialectic

When fine tuning the start points of your drum samples on the SP, try this:

1. First, pitch down the sample that you are editing. By doing this it allows you to hear the start point in much finer detail.
2. Set the quantise value/auto correct to hi-res.
3. Enter 'sample truncate' mode and select the relevant sample.
4. Hold down the 'tap repeat' button while holding down the relevant sample pad at the same time.
5. With quantize/auto correct set to 'hi-re', the beginning of the sample will now be re-trigged in quick succession.
6. Slowly adjust the start point with the faders until you hear the initial part of the sample being trigged.
7. Return the sample to its appropriate pitch.

Although this can be helpful, ultimately it is all about trusting your ears.

BTW you can also use this technique on any other sampler if you use the MPCs note repeat button.

I use this on the 950 and MPC combination. Its useful to really tighten up the attack of a sample (most useful on kicks IMO)

peace