Are We All Being Fooled Or What? Because...
Old 20th June 2008
  #1
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Are We All Being Fooled Or What? Because...

I know its alot of us on here that has been doing music for some YEARS now and Im sure we came from the days of using outboard gear such as rack compressors, rack effect is, etc.. but is it me or did that hardware outboard gear sound WAY better than these plug-ins nowadays? I mean not only the sound of the piece but it was the type of thing where you was actually HEARING the piece working with a few turns of the knob instead of "looking" to see what its doing in the case of plug-ins

I know plug-ins are cool and all and i use them also (mostly stock stuff but also used the higher end ones before also) but it seems like they are just "simulations" of what "supposed" to be. i dont get too much caught up in all the plug-in efx hype. If i had a choice of paying the same amount for a plug-in that i would for the actual unit itself, im getting the unit.

Now this thing about recording at 44.1k, 48k, 88.2k and 96k?
Can we REALLY hear that and if not then what's the point. Are we all just being sucked in as well as money being sucked out of or pockets to by this stuff that we REALLY cant hear anyway. Im using Logic Pro 8 and running external gear into it. Im recording 24bit/44.1k and it sounds good to me. i did a few test recordings in 44.1k, 48k, 88.2k and 96k, compared them all against each other and it all sounds the same to me unless its something im missing.

Just me and my random thoughts...peace!
Old 20th June 2008
  #2
Gear maniac
 

the thing about analog gear that i like the most is......it's right there for me to reach and touch. i dont have to go through screens to get to it.
Old 20th June 2008
  #3
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OOHHH YESSSS. You are SOOOO right..That is what im talking about. It just seemed like what you touch, you can actually hear it WORKING. Even though im running a DAW (Logic Pro 8) I still try to keep my studio more "hands on" when it comes to creating beats. I got synth's, mpc's, sampler, etc...all getting tracked in like as if it was ADATS up in here, lol! I even got a Tascam control surface to give me that "mixboard" feel!
Old 20th June 2008
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rallycapmusic View Post
I know its alot of us on here that has been doing music for some YEARS now and Im sure we came from the days of using outboard gear such as rack compressors, rack effect is, etc.. but is it me or did that hardware outboard gear sound WAY better than these plug-ins nowadays? I mean not only the sound of the piece but it was the type of thing where you was actually HEARING the piece working with a few turns of the knob instead of "looking" to see what its doing in the case of plug-ins

I know plug-ins are cool and all and i use them also (mostly stock stuff) but it seems like they are just "simulations" of what "supposed" to be. i dont get too much caught up in all the plug-in efx hype. If i had a choice of paying the same amount for a plug-in that i would for the actual unit itself, im getting the unit.

Now this thing about recording at 44.1k, 48k, 88.2k and 96k?
Can we REALLY hear that and if not then what's the point. Are we all just being sucked in as well as money being sucked out of or pockets to by this stuff that we REALLY cant hear anyway. Im using Logic Pro 8 and running external gear into it. Im recording 24bit/44.1k and it sounds good to me. i did a few test recordings in 44.1k, 48k, 88.2k and 96k, compared them all against each other and it all sounds the same to me unless its something im missing.

Just me and my random thoughts...peace!
thats what i have been trying to say..........

i made a video of a mix i did on Danity Kane and there are so many people getting mad at me for showcasing my outboard mixing techniques ...... you will prolly enjoy my video...... check it out .... there is a thread about it and the first post has the youtube link........

-samiam-
Old 20th June 2008
  #5
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Thread Starter
can you post the link..i would love to see it!
Old 20th June 2008
  #6
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Old 20th June 2008
  #7
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lol, nothing is worse(to me) than turning plugin knobs with a dfegad mouse.!
Old 20th June 2008
  #8
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Quote:
This is what you in Digi double-O land don't don't even understand...this is a 64 input console!
I routinely go past 64 inputs on a 003 + MPTK. I have more processing and automation capability ITB than that studio has OTB. And I have Chandlers, Avalons, API too...

Why would you ever say it was the gear? That's cutting yourself.

(OK I see this was already thrashed on the other thread)
Old 20th June 2008
  #9
Gear addict
 

well it does seem like alot of music today i dont know why but it just doesnt sound as good as older stuff and im not talking about rock or that. im talking about even hiphop. maybe they are just rushing stuff off quicker today?5 minute beat, 10 minute vocal. 30 minutes later usa number 1 lol okay maybe not that bad but its almost... music today just seems like its a machine trying to push out as many hits as fast as possible. plugins in my mind are good but i dont ever think u can truely say its beter than the hardware piece, cause in the end all the plugin does is trying to emulate a classic piece of gear, but how can u emulate something that has all that chips and circuits and stuff inside. we are moving away from the hardware and moving into the era of "laptop producers" im all for being able to make beats on the fly quick and stuff, but does it sound beter to me? no ways, try to emulate the feel and look of a ferrari in a computer game, not even possible, even if it looks like it sounds like ur still missing the feel of it... same with hardware ur still missing that feeling of actauly sitting there and having that piece of gear there and having u turn the stuff, watching the lights go on and stuff how can anyone tell me that software beats that?
Old 20th June 2008
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peeder View Post
I routinely go past 64 inputs on a 003 + MPTK. I have more processing and automation capability ITB than that studio has OTB. And I have Chandlers, Avalons, API too...

Why would you ever say it was the gear? That's cutting yourself.
003 only has 18 i/o 8 analog 8 dig 2 spdif....... and im sure the 003 rig your speaking on doesnt have 7 DSP cards or 192 tracks of HD 16 gigs of ram, the waves diamond bundle, sound toys, mcDSP, and every plugin available because the owner is a gear *****......

..... sorry you dont like the video, i guess im just old school.... and im sure your rig could not even remotely compare to Silent Sound Studios

i think you mean you have 64 tracks with the MPTK not inputs.......

check the website and look at there gear list before its amazing.....

www.silentsoundstudios.com


-samiam-
Old 20th June 2008
  #11
Led
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peeder View Post
I routinely go past 64 inputs on a 003 + MPTK. I have more processing and automation capability ITB than that studio has OTB. And I have Chandlers, Avalons, API too...

Why would you ever say it was the gear? That's cutting yourself.

(OK I see this was already thrashed on the other thread)
Really...seriously....if your comparing a 003 and PT to a high end studio with a LFAC and you don't hear a difference, then to you there is no difference. There is no point trying to convince you because you don't get it. I know you're intelligent and all, but Peeder how much time as a working engineer have you spent mixing on large consoles in high end studios with a lot of great outboard? I mean as the head engineer running the show. Honestly, there is no comparison. Yes, gear is not everything and a great engineer will do a good mix on anything, but put that same engineer in a well equipped, tuned room with a great console and outboard and he will smoke anything he could do on your 003 + MPTK setup. Yes, even with the Avalons etc...I'm not dissin your setup, but really your kidding yourself a little with that comparison.

I'm not trying to start a fight, but I must call shenannigans on that one....
Old 20th June 2008
  #12
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Thread Starter
I like the video man! right on for putting that up.
back in the day i ran a 24 channel tascam console (the BIG one) with ADATs, an MPC w/8 outs running into it, keyboard synths and other rack modules (all singled outputted to the board). DBX compressors on the busses to pump and "squeeze those drums". Lexicon effects racks (OOHH man im getting amped just THINKING about my old set up and comparing it to what knowledge i know NOW about mixing? WOW!) those was the days...and all that getting mixed down to DAT...To tell you the truth...THAT end result sounded DAM GOOD!
Old 20th June 2008
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rallycapmusic View Post
I like the video man! right on for putting that up.
back in the day i ran a 24 channel tascam console (the BIG one) with ADATs, an MPC w/8 outs running into it, keyboard synths and other rack modules (all singled outputted to the board). DBX compressors on the busses to pump and "squeeze those drums". Lexicon effects racks (OOHH man im getting amped just THINKING about my old set up and comparing it to what knowledge i know NOW about mixing? WOW!) those was the days...and all that getting mixed down to DAT...To tell you the truth...THAT end result sounded DAM GOOD!
nice one Rally...... i remember those days .... i had the same similar set up at Noontime Music ...... when i was working with Jazze Pha, Teddy Bishop, B.Cox & D.Scantz...... well i still work with all those cats.... but thats was quite some time ago..... i had the biggest DAT bag ever.... i remember when i got my first 1G drive too .... that is really funny now...... i still have my Mackie 32-8 ... those Eq's to me are still great.....

me and Bryan had a conversation about turning the computer off and throwing up some reels..... i think were gonna do that soon..... cant wait for that one......

ROCK ON OLD SCHOOL !!!!!!!!!!

-samiam-
Old 20th June 2008
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Led View Post
Really...seriously....if your comparing a 003 and PT to a high end studio with a LFAC and you don't hear a difference, then to you there is no difference. There is no point trying to convince you because you don't get it. I know you're intelligent and all, but Peeder how much time as a working engineer have you spent mixing on large consoles in high end studios with a lot of great outboard? I mean as the head engineer running the show. Honestly, there is no comparison. Yes, gear is not everything and a great engineer will do a good mix on anything, but put that same engineer in a well equipped, tuned room with a great console and outboard and he will smoke anything he could do on your 003 + MPTK setup. Yes, even with the Avalons etc...I'm not dissin your setup, but really your kidding yourself a little with that comparison.

I'm not trying to start a fight, but I must call shenannigans on that one....
well put...

-samiam-
Old 20th June 2008
  #15
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I think some of us (myself included) spend more time "mouse pointing" and "looking" with these plug-ins to the point we loose focus on getting the sound we are looking for. or maybe the plug-in ISNT giving the sound we are looking for because all it is....is a...SIMULATION!
Old 20th June 2008
  #16
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I don't like people saying you can't afford the gear to make a hit. I call total BS on that.

Old 20th June 2008
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peeder View Post
I don't like people saying you can't afford the gear to make a hit. I call total BS on that.

its not about making a hit today anymore look at souljay boy. fl studio, stock sounds nothing more to it... song sucks to me but many people love it. lol. but its not about me its about people buying it. the question to me is not about making hits, its about making classics, that stuff that stands the test of time... so its kinda like do u want a to be a beatmaker/producer or a legend? i prefer to wanna work to be a legend in the field, to make classics but i guess not everyone thinks that big.
u dont need to have a million dollar studio to make big records anymore u wanna test it. give someone like pete rock a mpc a bunch of records lol and the guy will make u some hot shit. but get some guy of the street put him in a top studio and see if he can do the same... its not about the gear its the man behind the gear i wish people will just realise that more, i mean sure its nice to have tons of hot stuff, but a great producer can do great things on anything give him a laptop, give him a mpc, give him asr10 he will make u the hits, thats who i wanna become i dont want to limit myself to anything.
Old 20th June 2008
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lospat123 View Post
i mean sure its nice to have tons of hot stuff, but a great producer can do great things on anything give him a laptop, give him a mpc, give him asr10 he will make u the hits, thats who i wanna become i dont want to limit myself to anything.
thats 100% right there ... give him pots, pans and a couple sticks; lock him up in a bus, and he still gonna throw down a hit.
Old 20th June 2008
  #19
Quote:
Originally Posted by rallycapmusic View Post
I know its alot of us on here that has been doing music for some YEARS now and Im sure we came from the days of using outboard gear such as rack compressors, rack effect is, etc.. but is it me or did that hardware outboard gear sound WAY better than these plug-ins nowadays? I mean not only the sound of the piece but it was the type of thing where you was actually HEARING the piece working with a few turns of the knob instead of "looking" to see what its doing in the case of plug-ins

I know plug-ins are cool and all and i use them also (mostly stock stuff but also used the higher end ones before also) but it seems like they are just "simulations" of what "supposed" to be. i dont get too much caught up in all the plug-in efx hype. If i had a choice of paying the same amount for a plug-in that i would for the actual unit itself, im getting the unit.
There are some great plugs, and there's some great outboard.

Each has its strengths (sonically; there's no need to get into the recallability or automation or any other tired plug vs. outboard debate). I've yet to find an analog gate that I like. There are also some really amazing plug in de-essers. I even prefer some of my studio's plug in EQs to our desk's EQ. But ultimately, it's about knowing which tools to use and when. Nothing more.

I'll probably never buy another plug in again (except MAYBE that new polyphonic Melodyne...); I've got everything I need at work, and I get a bigger buzz buying hardware (not to mention it's long-term reliability). But tools are just tools; there's a lotta people doing great work totally ITB, and a lotta people doing great work OTB. The only people getting fooled are the people that believe all the "this piece of gear will make your records sound pro" marketing crap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rallycapmusic View Post
Now this thing about recording at 44.1k, 48k, 88.2k and 96k?
Can we REALLY hear that and if not then what's the point. Are we all just being sucked in as well as money being sucked out of or pockets to by this stuff that we REALLY cant hear anyway. Im using Logic Pro 8 and running external gear into it. Im recording 24bit/44.1k and it sounds good to me. i did a few test recordings in 44.1k, 48k, 88.2k and 96k, compared them all against each other and it all sounds the same to me unless its something im missing.

Just me and my random thoughts...peace!
What kind of converters are you using? What kind of room are you monitoring in? Examine the performance of your plugins at different sampling rates (this is HUGE). Try experimenting with the stereo image at different sampling rates. The differences are definitely audible; if for no other reason than many converters function differently at different sampling rates. I'm not gonna say one's better than the other (although I do have my preference), but again, the only people that are being fooled are the ones that believe that sampling rate is the magic bullet.
Old 20th June 2008
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lospat123 View Post
its not about making a hit today anymore look at souljay boy. fl studio, stock sounds nothing more to it... song sucks to me but many people love it. lol. but its not about me its about people buying it. the question to me is not about making hits, its about making classics, that stuff that stands the test of time... so its kinda like do u want a to be a beatmaker/producer or a legend? i prefer to wanna work to be a legend in the field, to make classics but i guess not everyone thinks that big.
u dont need to have a million dollar studio to make big records anymore u wanna test it. give someone like pete rock a mpc a bunch of records lol and the guy will make u some hot shit. but get some guy of the street put him in a top studio and see if he can do the same... its not about the gear its the man behind the gear i wish people will just realise that more, i mean sure its nice to have tons of hot stuff, but a great producer can do great things on anything give him a laptop, give him a mpc, give him asr10 he will make u the hits, thats who i wanna become i dont want to limit myself to anything.
Dittothumbsupthumbsup
Old 20th June 2008
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonymission View Post
thats 100% right there ... give him pots, pans and a couple sticks; lock him up in a bus, and he still gonna throw down a hit.
Dittothumbsupthumbsup
Old 20th June 2008
  #22
Gear maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lospat123 View Post
its not about making a hit today anymore look at souljay boy. fl studio, stock sounds nothing more to it... song sucks to me but many people love it. lol. but its not about me its about people buying it. the question to me is not about making hits, its about making classics, that stuff that stands the test of time... so its kinda like do u want a to be a beatmaker/producer or a legend? i prefer to wanna work to be a legend in the field, to make classics but i guess not everyone thinks that big.
u dont need to have a million dollar studio to make big records anymore u wanna test it. give someone like pete rock a mpc a bunch of records lol and the guy will make u some hot shit. but get some guy of the street put him in a top studio and see if he can do the same... its not about the gear its the man behind the gear i wish people will just realise that more, i mean sure its nice to have tons of hot stuff, but a great producer can do great things on anything give him a laptop, give him a mpc, give him asr10 he will make u the hits, thats who i wanna become i dont want to limit myself to anything.
ok....I'm gonna say this and i know alota y'all are gonna pick me apart for saying this, but i'm fitna call BS on some of y'all.....and you know who you are when i say this. Some of y'all are using cracked everything, from programs to plug-ins. and the only reason you're defending software gear...cause thats all you know. if it means coming out your pocket then yea that cracked software is the sh*t.

i am using analog gear and i have Nuendo 3 for editing my files. but i send the files back to my multi track recorders for mix down. and i promise you i have done mouse mixing and it does not compare in any way to having your hands on some faders and knobs. my cheap alesis compressor is alot more fun the pulling up and messing with on screen plug-ins.
i'm not saying that you cant get good results from software recordings...cause you can....but get behind a big board and you'll feel the difference between mouse and faders and knobs
Old 20th June 2008
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Led View Post
Honestly, there is no comparison. Yes, gear is not everything and a great engineer will do a good mix on anything, but put that same engineer in a well equipped, tuned room with a great console and outboard and he will smoke anything he could do on your 003 + MPTK setup. Yes, even with the Avalons etc...
^^^^thats BS

As a producer, in todays music industry, I honestly dont understand how you could actually want a big board/outboard mix... You may decide (or even worse some AnR may decide) that you wanna play with different kik drums, or swap synth sounds. now your telling me the advantage of those slight analog perks, out weight the ability to make these kinds of changes on a dimes notice? PRECISE changes? What if the day after the mix, i decide i want more compression on the kik? Now i gotta book time, make sure all the outboard is still available, and at the end of the day the mix is only as close as the burnt out assistant recalled it...

I guess if your Bryan Cox, then whatever, ruining some engineers weekend to add a bit more compression to the kik is fine, cus you got the money, and resources to do it, and your staff will cancel their own mothers funeral to make these changes. BUT if you think its more important to use analog outboard, then to give full flexibility to the producer, i think you've got the priorities mixed up. I guess if you print every track back to the computer, then fine, but if your not gonna do that, i say DO NOT LEAVE tHE BOX!!!

Of course, i know the whole lets turn the room upside down with outboard method works, but i find that this is something that happens when X producer is at the point where he's got the money and the resources to pull it off, and it usually comes off as an unnecessary luxery to me...I think every producer starts off making great music with minimal equipment, then gets that ONE thing to pop off, and now he can indulge in all the studio gear he wants... I have access to whatever i want, and ive had more success with the little rig in my house, simply cuz i could keep making changes so easily, and the focus was put on the MUSIC, rather then the gear.
Old 20th June 2008
  #24
Quote:
Originally Posted by filterayok View Post
^^^^thats BS

As a producer, in todays music industry, I honestly dont understand how you could actually want a big board/outboard mix... You may decide (or even worse some AnR may decide) that you wanna play with different kik drums, or swap synth sounds. now your telling me the advantage of those slight analog perks, out weight the ability to make these kinds of changes on a dimes notice? PRECISE changes? What if the day after the mix, i decide i want more compression on the kik? Now i gotta book time, make sure all the outboard is still available, and at the end of the day the mix is only as close as the burnt out assistant recalled it...

I guess if your Bryan Cox, then whatever, ruining some engineers weekend to add a bit more compression to the kik is fine, cus you got the money, and resources to do it, and your staff will cancel their own mothers funeral to make these changes. BUT if you think its more important to use analog outboard, then to give full flexibility to the producer, i think you've got the priorities mixed up. I guess if you print every track back to the computer, then fine, but if your not gonna do that, i say DO NOT LEAVE tHE BOX!!!

Of course, i know the whole lets turn the room upside down with outboard method works, but i find that this is something that happens when X producer is at the point where he's got the money and the resources to pull it off, and it usually comes off as an unnecessary luxery to me...I think every producer starts off making great music with minimal equipment, then gets that ONE thing to pop off, and now he can indulge in all the studio gear he wants... I have access to whatever i want, and ive had more success with the little rig in my house, simply cuz i could keep making changes so easily, and the focus was put on the MUSIC, rather then the gear.
One word: stems.
Old 20th June 2008
  #25
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i think a lot of it has to do with inspiration.

whats going to inspire you more, sitting in front of a computer monitor with a mouse in your hand, or having a 72 channel console with racks of outboard? for me, i get way more inspired having a nice room full of gear to work with.

same reason people still work on tape. it inspires you to work a certain way. its not because tape is that much better than digital, its actually kind of pain compared to handling digital files. but it makes you think and work a certain way, and that effects the outcome of the product.

i think there are plenty of plugins nowadays that can compete with outboard gear in terms of sound quality, the examples are everywhere because there are a lot of big time engineers mixing ITB only. but you can't beat the feeling of sitting down at a big console and being able to reach out and touch the faders or knobs.
Old 20th June 2008
  #26
Gear maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by filterayok View Post
^^^^thats BS

As a producer, in todays music industry, I honestly dont understand how you could actually want a big board/outboard mix... You may decide (or even worse some AnR may decide) that you wanna play with different kik drums, or swap synth sounds. now your telling me the advantage of those slight analog perks, out weight the ability to make these kinds of changes on a dimes notice? PRECISE changes? What if the day after the mix, i decide i want more compression on the kik? Now i gotta book time, make sure all the outboard is still available, and at the end of the day the mix is only as close as the burnt out assistant recalled it...

I guess if your Bryan Cox, then whatever, ruining some engineers weekend to add a bit more compression to the kik is fine, cus you got the money, and resources to do it, and your staff will cancel their own mothers funeral to make these changes. BUT if you think its more important to use analog outboard, then to give full flexibility to the producer, i think you've got the priorities mixed up. I guess if you print every track back to the computer, then fine, but if your not gonna do that, i say DO NOT LEAVE tHE BOX!!!

Of course, i know the whole lets turn the room upside down with outboard method works, but i find that this is something that happens when X producer is at the point where he's got the money and the resources to pull it off, and it usually comes off as an unnecessary luxery to me...I think every producer starts off making great music with minimal equipment, then gets that ONE thing to pop off, and now he can indulge in all the studio gear he wants... I have access to whatever i want, and ive had more success with the little rig in my house, simply cuz i could keep making changes so easily, and the focus was put on the MUSIC, rather then the gear.

These threads always end up being a whatever works for you thread!!!
Old 20th June 2008
  #27
Gear maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickrock305 View Post
i think a lot of it has to do with inspiration.

whats going to inspire you more, sitting in front of a computer monitor with a mouse in your hand, or having a 72 channel console with racks of outboard? for me, i get way more inspired having a nice room full of gear to work with.

same reason people still work on tape. it inspires you to work a certain way. its not because tape is that much better than digital, its actually kind of pain compared to handling digital files. but it makes you think and work a certain way, and that effects the outcome of the product.

i think there are plenty of plugins nowadays that can compete with outboard gear in terms of sound quality, the examples are everywhere because there are a lot of big time engineers mixing ITB only. but you can't beat the feeling of sitting down at a big console and being able to reach out and touch the faders or knobs.
thank you
Old 20th June 2008
  #28
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don't fool yourself... we are being fooled ALL the time!
Old 21st June 2008
  #29
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Thread Starter
i promise you i have done mouse mixing and it does not compare in any way to having your hands on some faders and knobs. my cheap alesis compressor is alot more fun the pulling up and messing with on screen plug-ins.
i'm not saying that you cant get good results from software recordings...cause you can....but get behind a big board and you'll feel the difference between mouse and faders and knobs[/QUOTE]

DAM dude! you HIT it right on the head. Thats what im talking about.
Old 21st June 2008
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scorpio01169 View Post
ok....I'm gonna say this and i know alota y'all are gonna pick me apart for saying this, but i'm fitna call BS on some of y'all.....and you know who you are when i say this. Some of y'all are using cracked everything, from programs to plug-ins. and the only reason you're defending software gear...cause thats all you know. if it means coming out your pocket then yea that cracked software is the sh*t.
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