Metallic Vocal Sound (esp Backgrounds)

[larrygates]

In case the technique involves Voc Align / Melodyne (aligning Vocals not pitch correcting) / or any other time dependent technique I can't think of right now.

The question, to any who have insight, or just flat out know how to achieve the sound is; How does one get the sound of the background and occasionally Lead vocals to sound as if they are for lack of a better term Metallic?

I understand how a good Flanger program / Good Flange Hardware could help dramatically in getting there but if there's something I'm missing please let us know.

The sound I'm speaking about can be heard all over Jordin Spark's single No Air. Omarion's Ice Box would be another example (which sounds more effected than No Air but it's still the same basic sound). Another contemporary song that has it is Danity Kane's Damaged. Mostly happens on backgrounds or accented throughout the leads.

My idea is that it's def stacked vocals (that's normal fundamentals) but then it goes into I would say Voc Align / Melodyne (time only not pitch). I don't hear much Autotune, although I could be wrong. So if anyone can chime in and give their take on this, flanged / mettalic sound (Audio Damage has some tools that get in that ballpark immediately I'm thinking about Fluid and Vapor) but other than that that's all I have to offer my own question about the . . .

Mettalic Vocal Sound.

[musaee]

i dont know those tunes per se

but the psp lexicon42 has a preset that makes vocals metallic sounding. almost like how an 80s television robot would sound....lol

i think ken lewis did (mixed) "damaged". maybe pm him. he's on here

edit: i just listened to no air...its not the psp effect

[larrygates]

Originally Posted by musaee

i dont know those tunes per se

but the psp lexicon42 has a preset that makes vocals metallic sounding. almost like how an 80s television robot would sound....lol

i think ken lewis did (mixed) "damaged". maybe pm him. he's on here

edit: i just listened to no air...its not the psp effect

I could ask Ken just flat out, not sure how that would look or how he'd take that. Since that technique is pretty much a pop staple for vocals. Esp Backgrounds and Chorus.

I think it's a combination of the things I said, along with something else. I hope no one chimes in and says it's arrangement based, because the human voice can only do so much, even when stacked and harmonized properly with standard Pop 1 - 3 - 5 harmony structure and all of the modal variations or such.

Well Ken if you care to share the insight to what I'd say not too many people know how to achieve that would be a very nice thing to do.

Or anyone else. . .

[Igotsoul4u]

I can get that same sound by using melodyne. If I tune and shift a stack of vocals identically, I get the same effect I think you are looking for. The effect can also be achieved if you highlight the entire vocal and decrease the vibrato and pitch drift overall. Normally I like a more natural sounding stack so I leave the 3rd and 4th voice closer to the original performance to keep some texture. Give me a shout if u want details.

[Ken Lewis]

I'm not really sure what vocals your talking about in Damaged, and if they are there, it came to me effected that way. I did a ton of stuff to the vox on that song but what your describing isnt one of them.

However, Speakerphone is really badass for vocal effects, not only for filtering, but also distorting and effecting. Melodyne does cool things. autotune in conjunction with other things can give you cool effects, Like Logic's bit crusher plugin. I'm sure different people use different things. -Ken

[larrygates]

Originally Posted by Igotsoul4u

I can get that same sound by using melodyne. If I tune and shift a stack of vocals identically, I get the same effect I think you are looking for. The effect can also be achieved if you highlight the entire vocal and decrease the vibrato and pitch drift overall. Normally I like a more natural sounding stack so I leave the 3rd and 4th voice closer to the original performance to keep some texture. Give me a shout if u want details.

Tune & Shift a Stack of Vocals? I suppose meaning take a 4 part stack (all unison) tune to pitch perfection, then you say shift? What do you mean by shift - the formant? About decreasing vibrato and transitions, that gets kind of close, but not really. It's that super sheen, that feels like it's wrapped around the entire stack. If you can fill in those holes I didn't get I'd follow at lot more of what you say.

Originally Posted by Ken Lewis

I'm not really sure what vocals your talking about in Damaged, and if they are there, it came to me effected that way. I did a ton of stuff to the vox on that song but what your describing isnt one of them.

However, Speakerphone is really badass for vocal effects, not only for filtering, but also distorting and effecting. Melodyne does cool things. autotune in conjunction with other things can give you cool effects, Like Logic's bit crusher plugin. I'm sure different people use different things. -Ken

Let me see Ken, the lyrics that it happens on in Damaged are

"I thought that I should let you know"
"How we gonna fix it . fix it . fix it."
"What are we gonna do."
"Ar - Ar - Ar - Are You."

I'm pretty sure most of those lines are background parts, mostly unison, the harmonies don't have that effect, but the damn harmonies are super tight in their own regard. I know how to get that sound, and it's 90% arrangement by far. But those parts I spoke about are pretty much it. No Air does somewhat of the same type of thing, just not as aggressively (contextual thing of course).

Thanks a lot.

I think depending on the replies I pretty much got it for the most part.

I will say aligning the vocals gets you partly there.

[cynic one]

my way of getting "metallic" vocals always had to do with 2, sometimes 3 things

- ring modulation
- a very very short delay
- light phaser

[larrygates]

Originally Posted by cynic

my way of getting "metallic" vocals always had to do with 2, sometimes 3 things

- ring modulation
- a very very short delay
- light phaser

Ah, sounds like a great place for me to spring board off of. I was thinking flanger / which you're basically doing with light phasing. Very Very short delay / samples of delay or do you mean like about 3 ~ 5 ms?

As far as ring modulation, it's an effect I've never got into at all. Only one I know of is Logic's ring modulator (I don't use Logic anymore) so any ring modulators you know VST PC let me know, so I can see if I can tackle this job.

Thanks

Btw you did look at the examples I was speaking about. Just making sure we're talking the same metallic sound.

[cynic one]

yeah you can get something similar i think with what i'm talking about. and very small as in 3 - 20ms range...play around with it.

i just the ringmod plugin that comes with cubase. actually come to think about it, there's also a cubase plugin called "metalizer" that does exactly what you're looking for...don't think you can get it without cubase though.

[JDN]

Originally Posted by Ken Lewis

I'm not really sure what vocals your talking about in Damaged, and if they are there, it came to me effected that way. I did a ton of stuff to the vox on that song but what your describing isnt one of them.

However, Speakerphone is really badass for vocal effects, not only for filtering, but also distorting and effecting. Melodyne does cool things. autotune in conjunction with other things can give you cool effects, Like Logic's bit crusher plugin. I'm sure different people use different things. -Ken

I think the original poster is a little confused and not describing the effect that he's hearing accurately. I mixed Icebox (and tracked Omarions vocals too) and didn't really do anything I'd consider that sound.

[cynic one]

Originally Posted by JDN

I think the original poster is a little confused and not describing the effect that he's hearing accurately. I mixed Icebox (and tracked Omarions vocals too) and didn't really do anything I'd consider that sound.

well since you're here...what'd you do to those vocals?

[JDN]

Originally Posted by cynic

well since you're here...what'd you do to those vocals?

to be honest not as much as people seem to be reading into it. I'd say it's a pretty good example of a good modern clean r&b sond, so it's not too effected. I paid very close attention while tracking. I tracked through Sony c800g, into neve 1073, into a distressor(my fave for vocal tracking) riding the input of the distressor a lot to make sure i was always hitting it where i like it. All backgrounds were stacked 4 times and panned. possibly some tuning and vocalign...but i didn't say that. other than that some good compression hit pretty hard for mix, various little delays mixed in real low to add ambience, in almost a verby kinda way, and some verbs, a lot of EQ too. The signature delay throws were echo farm. I've always been a big fan of C4, and used that on BG's too. and like any other modern r&b track, a lot of vocal and even effect riding....and oh yea, a Great song helped too!

I mean, don't get me wrong, a lot was done to make it sound like that...i just mean there was no real "special effecty" kinda thing going on that the poster hears or implies....I think he was probably just hearing the artifacts of tight stacked BG's and a lot of harmonies

[cynic one]

@JDN same with the "i'm so cold i'm so cold i'm so cold" BG's timbo is doing?

those were what i was really interested in. sorry for not making it more clear. always wondered what the fx stack looked like on those backgrounds since i heard the track.

[JDN]

Originally Posted by cynic

@JDN same with the "i'm so cold i'm so cold i'm so cold" BG's timbo is doing?

those were what i was really interested in. sorry for not making it more clear. always wondered what the fx stack looked like on those backgrounds since i heard the track.

wow...i gave you pretty much all the info but what you wanted...lol. Tim vox was simmilar but with distortion and flanger

[cynic one]

cool thanks

[T. Gundersen]

Originally Posted by JDN

to be honest not as much as people seem to be reading into it. I'd say it's a pretty good example of a good modern clean r&b sond, so it's not too effected. I paid very close attention while tracking. I tracked through Sony c800g, into neve 1073, into a distressor(my fave for vocal tracking) riding the input of the distressor a lot to make sure i was always hitting it where i like it. All backgrounds were stacked 4 times and panned. possibly some tuning and vocalign...but i didn't say that. other than that some good compression hit pretty hard for mix, various little delays mixed in real low to add ambience, in almost a verby kinda way, and some verbs, a lot of EQ too. The signature delay throws were echo farm. I've always been a big fan of C4, and used that on BG's too. and like any other modern r&b track, a lot of vocal and even effect riding....and oh yea, a Great song helped too!

I mean, don't get me wrong, a lot was done to make it sound like that...i just mean there was no real "special effecty" kinda thing going on that the poster hears or implies....I think he was probably just hearing the artifacts of tight stacked BG's and a lot of harmonies

I really like what you did with the mix - me and the pot'nas have been discussing your work quite a bit. It's a mix that really sticks out in a good way IMO, of course partially because the song is just so good. Just wanted to say thanks for taking the time out to explain the workflow for that particular piece.. Nice work!!

[Nahuel]

Like larrygates I hear that "metalic" fx in a lot of current productions... after reading the replies I wonder if it comes from a lot of compressed background vocals + the use of autotune (and maybe the use of vocalign)... it sound like a very subtil flanger to me.

[larrygates]

Originally Posted by JDN

to be honest not as much as people seem to be reading into it. I'd say it's a pretty good example of a good modern clean r&b sond, so it's not too effected. I paid very close attention while tracking. I tracked through Sony c800g, into neve 1073, into a distressor(my fave for vocal tracking) riding the input of the distressor a lot to make sure i was always hitting it where i like it. All backgrounds were stacked 4 times and panned. possibly some tuning and vocalign...but i didn't say that. other than that some good compression hit pretty hard for mix, various little delays mixed in real low to add ambience, in almost a verby kinda way, and some verbs, a lot of EQ too. The signature delay throws were echo farm. I've always been a big fan of C4, and used that on BG's too. and like any other modern r&b track, a lot of vocal and even effect riding....and oh yea, a Great song helped too!

I mean, don't get me wrong, a lot was done to make it sound like that...i just mean there was no real "special effecty" kinda thing going on that the poster hears or implies....I think he was probably just hearing the artifacts of tight stacked BG's and a lot of harmonies

Well No confusion on my part. It is pretty much what I thought it was. 4 Stacks (usually) they have to be sung with feeling and accurately to begin with. Comp on input is a great start, along with a pretty small signal chain. Then the metal comes in with Voc-align & slight auto-tuning to get perfect intonation. An artifact of that is the metallic mp3 like layer that wraps around the vocals. Add in massive compression on bkg vox buss, master buss compression, limiting, mastering that artifact increases, along with nice ITB EQ and OTB EQ, and you pretty much get that sound. The use of delays as verbs (learned that from a guy who tracked with us during the late 90's early 2000) swirls around, but doesn't really add to that effect much. It's just spacial information to the listener.

I'm a little taken back that I "seem to be confused" about what I'm describing. I was thinking that it's more than just those 2 to 3 staple vocal techniques that garner that sound.

If anyone reads my first post, you'll see that I said "Voc-Align / Melodyne." Not so much auto-tune as it's the more drastic of that metallic effect.

Oh well, at least a few people here know how to get closer to that sound, and it seems to be (Stack, voc-align, tuning, comping, EQ, multiple short delays, possibly other time variant effects).

Thanks.

[filterayok]

Originally Posted by larrygates

Oh well, at least a few people here know how to get closer to that sound, and it seems to be (Stack, voc-align, tuning, comping, EQ, multiple short delays, possibly other time variant effects).

Thanks.

exactly. What ur describing as 'metallic' is just really really perfectly tight stacks..

[CWsounds]

I really think it's just the clearness, tight stacking and maybe really nice compression on the vocals.

[larrygates]

Originally Posted by CWsounds

I really think it's just the clearness, tight stacking and maybe really nice compression on the vocals.

Natural Human voice can't do intonation that perfectly. Which would cause the stack to modulate within itself virtually perfectly.

That'd be kind of like singing a note with the exact same intonation and pitch, but just differences in things like amplitude / formant. Impossible for anyone, except light melodyne & autotune.

It's a build up of 3 or 4 diff characteristics to get to That Sound.

Final Answer!

[phillysoulman]

Comb filter,maybe??

[larrygates]

Originally Posted by phillysoulman

Comb filter,maybe??

Thanks for chiming in with that! I know what a comb filter is, looks like a bunch of notches at key freq in the shape of a . . . um . . . COMB.

But, what in the world is it used for besides removing hum or buzz at diff fundamentals? Other than that I've always wondered what a comb filter can be used for, since I've never used one in a mix. Most noise redux plugs through in a hum remover which is basically that.

[filterayok]

Originally Posted by larrygates

Natural Human voice can't do intonation that perfectly.

I 've had demo singers that were so tight they phased with themselves. It was almost a bad thing, i couldnt get any thickness out of the stack. Tight is tight, melodyne is still just making things tighter.. the transitions from note to note will sound computerized or unnatural perhaps, but even when your tuning with melodyne , the tightness is not something that CANT be acheieved with a tight singer. the overall performance, yes i agree is not something a human can do, but the tightness of the stacks is doable with the right singer

[PettyCash]

I sometimes run into that problem of getting that "metallic" sound on rap vocals that I spit. My doubles are always very tight; the most you would hear being off is a loose end in 1 or 2 spots where I tried to flow a bit looser to actually see if the main vocal track was still playing lol. When you stack vocals on top of each other that are so in sync and word tight, it can kind of sound like what you are describing. I think using very short delays should also be able to provide you with a somewhat similar effect. The best way to do it though is to record your vocals tightly in the first place, or VocAlign vocals that are somewhat later on in the mix.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by larrygates

Thanks for chiming in with that! I know what a comb filter is, looks like a bunch of notches at key freq in the shape of a . . . um . . . COMB.

But, what in the world is it used for besides removing hum or buzz at diff fundamentals? Other than that I've always wondered what a comb filter can be used for, since I've never used one in a mix. Most noise redux plugs through in a hum remover which is basically that.

the sound of a comb filter is the sound of tracks phasing together - the resulting peaks and nulls in the frequency response.

[larrygates]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

the sound of a comb filter is the sound of tracks phasing together - the resulting peaks and bulls in the frequency response.

Sounds diff than what I'm talking about. I'm speaking about multiple notches in the form of a comb on purpose with an eq. You're talking about the phenomena itself.

From reading into what you're saying comb filters are basically tools to correct phasing problems etc . . . not so much any special effect that can immediately be derived from it.

About all the people talking about human stacks being that tight. Yes it happens, but not to the degree that it's happening on pop records and as repeatable, it's def aligned, either in Melodyne, or Voc-align, with tuning. Then multiple short delays panned will add space ad infinity . . . etc . . .

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by larrygates

Sounds diff than what I'm talking about. I'm speaking about multiple notches in the form of a comb on purpose with an eq. You're talking about the phenomena itself.

From reading into what you're saying comb filters are basically tools to correct phasing problems etc . . . not so much any special effect that can immediately be derived from it.

About all the people talking about human stacks being that tight. Yes it happens, but not to the degree that it's happening on pop records and as repeatable, it's def aligned, either in Melodyne, or Voc-align, with tuning. Then multiple short delays panned will add space ad infinity . . . etc . . .

You're confusing terminology here. "Comb Filtering" is primarily the RESULT of phasing - it's not a way to correct it. The idea of removing buzzes or a ring at a particular frequency is generally referred to as notch filtering.

The interference of 2 similar (say like a very tight singer singing the same line twice, maybe having been tuned) signals, close to but not actually being in phase, will cause the comb filtering effect - the cancellation causes the comb pattern of peaks and nulls across the frequency spectrum. The exact pattern will depend on the frequencies in the source signal, so it's not like an effect you can apply like you could an EQ - the pattern of the comb will constantly be changing.

That said, a v short delay (in samples) could produce the effect - by phasing the original signal against a delayed copy. Try this using time adjuster in PT, or whatever, and see if it's something like you're hearing.

Phillysoulman was suggesting the comb filtering effect was what you're identifying as "metallic" - caused by lots of stacked, tuned tracks.

[larrygates]

Comb filter created by an EQ plugin.

What I'm talking about. You're talking about the result of stacking causing this, not likely to be what I'm hearing.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by larrygates

Comb filter created by an EQ plugin.

What I'm talking about. You're talking about the result of stacking causing this, not likely to be what I'm hearing.

Comb filter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia for anyone interested.

we're kind of saying the same thing here - except comb filtering is caused by delays, not EQ (but then most EQ is manipulating phase relationships within a sound...so in a way it's similar).

For any real world signals though (eg a singer) you can't just apply an eq at fixed frequencies and call it a comb filter. That's notch filtering - comb filtering is dynamic, and depends on the signal reacting with a delayed version of itself, the phasing causing the notching. The frequencies of these notches are constantly changing, depending on the harmonic content of the source.

Anyway, I think combfiltering/phasing sounds quite metallic. If this isn't what you think is metallic...I'm out!