Dumb question but...high production vs. sober production

[ORGANIK]

hey !

well i smoke, i have tried all aspects at some point on the piff, .
my opinion dont mix or record high, youll def forget little things while recording and screw up something.

i do think at least for me, i find it easier to come up with ideas when writting if im in a rut or something or just to zone out on a few parts ideas, but def not producing and recording/mixing

mainly writing and just listning

[Tibbon]

Maybe some of you never paid your dues in a real studio. Remember that insane amount of attention to detail that was (hopefully) demanded of you as an intern/assistant. Would have you had that same attention to detail on weed?

Would you set a solid example for an intern if you're completely blazed?

[lastdon100]

Originally Posted by gearaddict

OK..first off..my little brothe has a bachelors degree in music tharaphy.adn had to go through all the things you just listed in your background..uhhhm...he can play..but like every other person I know that just relies on ther SCHOOL teaching's to get them through..he is not as good as the teen kid down the block...he can tell you everything there is to know about music...but lets here what you can do...ya know what I mean..OH unless you stick a sheet of music in frount of him and tell him what to play...but since you too went to SCHOOL..I guess you are makeing some killer tracks....OH and by the way..If you cant play what you can draw in FL...I think more school is needed Thats just my opinion...Im not trying to be a Di*k but I get tired of people (THAT I KNOW) comeing and showing me their next hit they did in FL..and advertising themselfs as Producers or engineers or musicians but are TONE DEF!!!
DOnt take it so hard..it's just my opinion..
P>S. MPC..dont own one..never did..I play everything with REAL Instruments..FOR MY OWN MUSIC THAT IS!!!!

If your a hip hop producer and dont rely on your ears u shouldn't be hip hop producers. I think thats a given to everybody on this forum. I'm not going to make a big discussion on school, and theory, because I think everybody has their opinion on it. I know of producers that make hits on F.L and other programs and cant locate middle C and CREATE HIP HOP. Don't take a genius to figure that out. If ur a hip hop producer, MAKE HIP HOP the best way u can. Point Blank.

[SoundProofStudio]

Originally Posted by lastdon100

If your a hip hop producer and dont rely on your ears u shouldn't be hip hop producers. I think thats a given to everybody on this forum. I'm not going to make a big discussion on school, and theory, because I think everybody has their opinion on it. I know of producers that make hits on F.L and other programs and cant locate middle C and CREATE HIP HOP. Don't take a genius to figure that out. If ur a hip hop producer, MAKE HIP HOP the best way u can. Point Blank.

Bravo... Exactly my point..... Nuff said.....

[Jake Gilla]

This topic has really turned into a Mac vs PC, Software vs Hardware type of discussion.

As a few other have said just do you. whether it be doing drugs, formal education, or buying certain gear. What ever helps you work better do it

But to me, a person who can mix/produce stoned or sober, ITB box or a analogue, run logic or sonar, is more valuable to me than a person that can do only one.


From Mihaly Csikzentmihalyi's book "Creativity";

"The real story of creativity is more difficult and strange than many overly optimistic accounts have claimed. For one thing, as I will try to show, an idea or product that deserves the label 'Creative' arises from the synergy of many sources and not only from the mind of a single person. It is easier to enhance creativity by changing conditions in the enviroment than by trying to make people think more creatively. And a genuinely creative accomplishment is almost never the result of a sudden insight, a lightbulb flashing on in the dark, but comes after years of hardwork.

[Justice]

Don't get high on your own supply!

Hahahahaha!

Wake and bake for me today!


have fun making music today!

[ALL*MYTEE]

Originally Posted by Jake Gilla

From Mihaly Csikzentmihalyi's book "Creativity";

"The real story of creativity is more difficult and strange than many overly optimistic accounts have claimed. For one thing, as I will try to show, an idea or product that deserves the label 'Creative' arises from the synergy of many sources and not only from the mind of a single person. It is easier to enhance creativity by changing conditions in the enviroment than by trying to make people think more creatively. And a genuinely creative accomplishment is almost never the result of a sudden insight, a lightbulb flashing on in the dark, but comes after years of hardwork.

Hi Jake,

I think this is a bit of a reach. We're all creative souls but creativity is trained out of us by rote exercises in school, fear, work and social conventions. Our society doesn't value creativity like it values conformity. It only takes years of work in the society we have constructed--if we change the society (or even our minds) then it could easily be easy. We all have genius in us but few have the guts to let it shine.

For what it's worth, I think the "years" of work that some people experience to have a breakthrough (and I won't dispute that it seems to take many people years to get as good as they'd like) is really just trying all the scared bull$*it and bad ideas we have in our minds about what we're supposed to sound like or be and getting completely exhausted and giving up and then finally just doing what we wanted to do in the first place. And then, finally, making what we personally want to hear instead of trying to please others or make it "sound right".

I guess in self help lingo it would be called letting go or surrender--when you say "ufck it"--this is what I want to hear, I don't care if anyone else thinks it's corny, I don't care about anything. It takes so long because it's scary and it makes us vulnerable. But it doens't have to be hard if we're willing to confront those fears from the start.

If we knew more about creativity, I believe we could just do what we wanted--surrender--from the get--without all the drama and about one tenth the struggle. I don't believe in the "starving artist" thing—I've starved for any number of things and it didn't do shoit for my work.

Young kids do genius artwork--and many painters take inspiration from kids work—but they don't starve or struggle for it. They don't "work" or break a sweat--it's playing to them--fun and easy. When they start to learn fear and self-editing in school it gets harder to maintain that direct vision. The trick is, of course, to be a responsible adult with a child's sense of freedom.

Lots of people try to achieve that freedom from drugs and other substances but in my opinion, it's much more powerful and lasting when you get it straight--cause then you're fearless in all aspects of your life, not just with your art or when you're macked up. You wake up Monday morning and it's on. If you rely on drugs to get free, you're heading downhill--because they're sapping your strength, health, flexibility and ability to cope with challenges. You might get free Friday and Saturday night, but Sunday evening's gonna be a bitch. Monday morning too.

As far as the environment thing, environments are important, but creativity comes through individuals not groups. If you're interested in this question, check out Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged. The most important art we have is usually the result of one person's vision--with influences and inspirations, of course, but a lot of times it takes a bad-ass like James Brown or van Gogh or Charlie Parker to take no shorts and change the game.

[Jake Gilla]

All My Tee

Its funny you should bring up Rand, as I just re read "The Fountainhead" for the first time since High School.

Just to clarify the Mihaly context of the quote;

The years of hard work are enjoyable, its what a creative person lives for (which Rand would agree with) but it is effort. The only way to increase creativity is to continue to create, and yes sacrifice the worries of a superficial world.

Furthermore, the work is not a means to an end, but simply a means. The idea Mihaly is trying to express is that creativity is not a breakthrough or sudden moment, but almost an energy that flows constantly, even in the back of our minds. Again, you can look at the protagonist from any Rand novel and see this as a dominant quality.

The phrase changing conditions in an enviroment, can be taken as a que to experiment. We're not talking directly about a physical enviroment, as much as a persons day to day existence. Changing conditions in an enviroment could be, and often is that F*ck it moment you spoke of (for me it was). Or it could be putting a poster on a wall. The idea is that adding dynamics to your existence is the key to stimulating creativity, or to put it in your words breaking free of "fear, work and social conventions".

As far as creativity being the effort of a collective vs. an individual, Rand and Mihaly would deffinitly disagree. Mihaly believes that for an act to be truly "creative" it has to be accepted as creative by a domain. Rand would never admit this to be true. I think its purely an issue of context, but I agree with Rand, we should find life in our work, and need no acceptance from any domain.

Unfortunatly you're right in that creativity is trained out of us, society does not reward creativity it punishes it. But the word as you said it is "Freedom". The true creative creates for sake of creating, personally, not what the world thinks his/her creation.

But yeah we're saying the same things pretty much. The only thing I'd have to disagree with is the idea that James Brown, Van Gogh and Charlie Parker are greater (read more creative) than ANY person has the potential to be and many who are and just haven't been accepted by the domain.

PEace

[ALL*MYTEE]

Hi Jake,

I didn't say that those three were inherantly special, but they did have the guts to manifest their gifts, which not everyone has. Genius might be allowing inspiration to happen. I've learned more from crackheads than lawyers and I've known a number of both.

I believe environment is important--slip on a pair of leather pants and see if you don't feel like more of a rock star. But I also think environment is overcome-able. That's why hip-hop is so lovely--Nas came out of Queensbridge, Jay-Z out of Marcy--it's a whole gang of folk using their story to transcend their environment. Most of the best art does.

Creativity is valued in the market when it is mediated--or accepted by normal society, but it can and does exist very valuably outside of it. Was van Gogh worthless before his paintings sold? No--and nothing about his creativity changed when they did. Waiting for the market to value things is a very limited idea of creativity in my opinion. I'm fervently not a communalist, though I believe in communities, certainly. The basis for any strong society is free and autonomous individuals.

Luckily, this mess is sorting itself out. Right now all content is sold at fixed prices--meaning that artists who work in mass mediums can't profitably reach anything but the biggest audiences. In fact, if you look at music, not even big bands make anything from recording, just touring.

This means that all creative work is unnecessarily difficult in relation to work valued at market rates--all manual and most intellectual work.

I'm surprised actually that none of these "got thier money right" rap stars (who I enjoy and support, btw) don't raise their prices. I wouldn't expect any white indie artists to do it, but a true thug shouldn't care. Every great artist has a monopoly.

But no matter, they can leave it for me. They taught me to believe in myself, I'll teach them what they're really worth.

Put a little bling on a $4.99 song and it might mean something. At .99 it's just talk.

Until then... charge it to the game.

[ALL*MYTEE]

Soundproof--

I know the tone of your comment wasn't harsh and was more suggestive--I pulled it somewhat to speak to other more harsh posts. Probably a mediocre idea in retrospect. My apologies.

I'll still think it's important for people to hear that drugs and alcohol are whack--and don't do anything positive long term--especially in the creative community where they're so accepted and so abused.

And I know saying that getting high is wack in a hip-hop forum is like telling priests that wearing all black is unholy--I'm not really on any sort of mission, I've just lost a lot of friends and wasted a lot of my own time and energy on this stuff and it never added up to anything but a big hole in my soul.

Or more accurately--it never worked to make the hole go away and it probably made it bigger and more scary to deal with. If you have problems and cover them up, it's a real mess.

Like putting up sheetrock over moldy walls.

Or doubling, compressing, putting reverb on wack vocals. It doesn't make things any clearer.

Being messed up I felt more creative, but don't forget to factor coming down and feeling rough the next day into the equation. If you think coffee gives you energy--keep drinking it. It will eventually own you. Drink it long enough and it eventually makes you tired.

As you might have guessed, I'm off to buy some health food. I-tal!

All the best.

AMT/E-Scratch-P/Sion/The Love Artiste

[SoundProofStudio]

Originally Posted by ALL*MYTEE

Soundproof--

I know the tone of your comment wasn't harsh and was more suggestive--I pulled it somewhat to speak to other more harsh posts. Probably a mediocre idea in retrospect. My apologies.

I'll still think it's important for people to hear that drugs and alcohol are whack--and don't do anything positive long term--especially in the creative community where they're so accepted and so abused.

And I know saying that getting high is wack in a hip-hop forum is like telling priests that wearing all black is unholy--I'm not really on any sort of mission, I've just lost a lot of friends and wasted a lot of my own time and energy on this stuff and it never added up to anything but a big hole in my soul.

Or more accurately--it never worked to make the hole go away and it probably made it bigger and more scary to deal with. If you have problems and cover them up, it's a real mess.

Like putting up sheetrock over moldy walls.

Or doubling, compressing, putting reverb on wack vocals. It doesn't make things any clearer.

Being messed up I felt more creative, but don't forget to factor coming down and feeling rough the next day into the equation. If you think coffee gives you energy--keep drinking it. It will eventually own you. Drink it long enough and it eventually makes you tired.

As you might have guessed, I'm off to buy some health food. I-tal!

All the best.

AMT/E-Scratch-P/Sion/The Love Artiste

No Doubt.... Like I said to each his own.... And I appreciate the clearing of the air .... Where all here to teach and learn from one another... As you'll see in any of my posts I'm very humble, Willing to help, and very interested in learning new things... And not to back track but I felt Gearaddict was bashing fellow GS members, ( which is his perogative ) Talking down, and down playing Hip Hop in general... Not every nor many producers use live instruments to make beats and most do use FL ( or other programs ) and MPC's... That doesn't make one better because ya strummed on a guitar or drew them out in FL... That all.. But much respect mah dude ... Lets get back 2 musik...

[Dor]

Originally Posted by Tibbon

Maybe some of you never paid your dues in a real studio. Remember that insane amount of attention to detail that was (hopefully) demanded of you as an intern/assistant. Would have you had that same attention to detail on weed?

Would you set a solid example for an intern if you're completely blazed?

Your trip down memory lane posts are very boring. As you know, the traditional studio/intern model is dead. If people want to spark while they work on music it is their choice. Not everyone becomes a total space cadet after indulging. I guess moderation is the key. Don't be hating because you spent your best years in a crummy college drowning in debt while the rest of us are making "beats".


D

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by Dor

As you know, the traditional studio/intern model is dead.

Is it?

That's what got me working, along with every other full-time professional engineer I know.

It's one thing to learn the art of production without first working as an intern or runner, but unless you've got the money to simply open up your own studio, it's fully another thing to hope to work as an engineer without first learning the craft in a professional studio.

[Tibbon]

Originally Posted by bgrotto

Is it?

That's what got me working, along with every other full-time professional engineer I know.

It's one thing to learn the art of production without first working as an intern or runner, but unless you've got the money to simply open up your own studio, it's fully another thing to hope to work as an engineer without first learning the craft in a professional studio.

That's kinda what I'm thinking. All of the people actually doing it professionally that I know (with one or two rare exceptions) did the interning thing at least at one point. They worked for someone else, they learned the ropes. The exact details may have varied, but few people who are doing engineering at 100% of their income/job I think just "bought a studio".

[E-Murder]

I have gone through a few intern's which we found from word of mouth. We don't do street calls, random email or deal with people we don't know whom have graduated from some audio school. There is a process of questions we go through with them to see if they are in it for the long haul. We have put a good amount of time into teaching some hopeful engineers the ropes only to be let down later on as they have nothing to offer in return. If we feel they are ready, they get called back for a session that's appropriate where they can get some insight verses a high paced session where they sit around and suck up oxygen. Also some clients don't want anyone else around except me.

I have an engineer in my studio who was an assistant/intern for a short time and is now becoming a very successful audio engineer and has many studio projects because he worked hard and had a college education in Audio, which enabled him to focus on the people/clients during recording sessions and not worry about the technical stuff so much since he was able to adapt quickly from his schooling. I think real world experience can equal the same as an education if you put your mind and time into it. This may be getting off topic/thread so I’ll stop here.
BOSTON!

[James Meeker]

Uh oh, this thread has been invaded by Objectivists!

Hide your Sarte and Kant books.

[James Meeker]

Originally Posted by bgrotto

That's what got me working, along with every other full-time professional engineer I know.

I never interned.

I'm from the semi-new breed of hobbyist turned pro. By the time I wanted to do this for money I was already pretty well versed, although there were tons of client relationship/studio backend stuff I had to learn as I go.

Overall I think interning is the BEST thing a young person can do. The alternative is to spend 10 years goofing on your own until you get a sense for things. I wish I had interned and gotten into this earlier. Oh well.

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by James Meeker

I never interned.

I'm from the semi-new breed of hobbyist turned pro. By the time I wanted to do this for money I was already pretty well versed, although there were tons of client relationship/studio backend stuff I had to learn as I go.

Overall I think interning is the BEST thing a young person can do. The alternative is to spend 10 years goofing on your own until you get a sense for things. I wish I had interned and gotten into this earlier. Oh well.

There ya have it, kiddies: would you rather work ten years as a hobbyist, or 2 years as an assistant? Those Full Sail college loans aren't gonna pay for themselves...(hee hee, neither is your engineering career. Thank you, folks, I'll be here all week, you've been great, but seriously folks...).

James is the perfect example. Thanks, dude! As usual, you rule.