parallel processing for depth

[Methlab]

I was wondering how you guys who parallel process your drums, go for more depth in them.

For example, I took a break and split it up so I could individually process the kick snare and hats. I Eqd and distorted a little. Now I am at the point where the drums hit hard in an old school 90s way that I like.

I will end up parallel compressing these drums before I finish up the mix. I usually compress in parallel, but I was reading how some guys like to add reverb or delay in their parallel chain . So basically, I would love to get the snare a little deeper and wider without going too crazy with it. I would also like to add a little more width and depth to the hats.

I usually use sends, but I think it would be cool to use the reverb as an insert in the parallel chain. I will also try gating first so I just get the hard transient to go into the compressor that is clamping down pretty fast.

Does anybody do this style of parallel processing? I know we all like to parallel compress and gate, but I wanted to take it a little further and see if and how some of you guys like to do it.

[TheGetDown]

I like to split my kicks into two tracks:

One hi-passed becomes the attack or click
One Low-passed becomes the body or sub.

I like to use some light distortion on the attack to make it sound grimy without breaking up the bass freqs. Also this way I have more control over the compression. I'll often only compress the body track and leave the attack nice and airy with lots of breathing room.

[Methlab]

Thanks man..sorry I should have been more clear. I do all these things and know this stuff. What I wanted to stress was some cats who use delay or reverb as inserts in their parallel tracks to achieve depth and width.

I definitely do similar things to what you described though, and it is good advice.

[lpuma]

Meth you know I aint no great engineer but if I had to do this I'd use an aux for the verb/delay so you can choose to send the processed sound or the clean track, even both if needed. And I dont know, it may sound crazy but why not some stereo imager on the verb or something a chorus/flanger/filter maybe... depending whut you want.

[Kadden Heart]

in the interest of saving CPU i would have auxes for parallell time based, but maybe for a more cohesive feel you could just one of your bigger verbs or delays, like a vocal verb or something.

my parallell tracks usually just consist of squashed crunchy tracks.

but i have thrown some verb on them before, using, like i said a backing vocal verb that i had set up.

[Everlast]

Probably your initial idea to put a reverb on insert and compress in parallel is good solution to add depth. That's what I do actually. Put my drums in parallel, add some ambiance reverb, compress and gate. That's what helps me to get a fake room ambiance.

[Methlab]

Originally Posted by Everlast

Probably your initial idea to put a reverb on insert and compress in parallel is good solution to add depth. That's what I do actually. Put my drums in parallel, add some ambiance reverb, compress and gate. That's what helps me to get a fake room ambiance.

ok cool..thats what I was thinking. What kind of reverb/settings do you find works best for this? I was thinking a predelay of 0 and a larger room, but I am not sure because there are so many options.

Are you gating last? Or first? If gating last doesn't that just kill the verb too quick?

I am mainly focused on snares, but the gated reverb on kicks can be realllll nice too if it's subtle.

[ryst]

Originally Posted by Methlab

I was wondering how you guys who parallel process your drums, go for more depth in them.

For example, I took a break and split it up so I could individually process the kick snare and hats. I Eqd and distorted a little. Now I am at the point where the drums hit hard in an old school 90s way that I like.

I will end up parallel compressing these drums before I finish up the mix. I usually compress in parallel, but I was reading how some guys like to add reverb or delay in their parallel chain . So basically, I would love to get the snare a little deeper and wider without going too crazy with it. I would also like to add a little more width and depth to the hats.

I usually use sends, but I think it would be cool to use the reverb as an insert in the parallel chain. I will also try gating first so I just get the hard transient to go into the compressor that is clamping down pretty fast.

Does anybody do this style of parallel processing? I know we all like to parallel compress and gate, but I wanted to take it a little further and see if and how some of you guys like to do it.

Meth,

I was thinking of the same thing recently. I also think it would be cool to add a verb right on the parallel track. But instead of usually making the lows and highs more aggressive on the parallel track, try low passing the verb so it gives it more depth. Or even a 30 -50ms delay with a low pass on the delay. If you use sends for the parallel busses, try panning the verbs/delays with a low pass for depth.

I also use multiple parallel busses for drums. For instance, I will have kick and snare parallel busses, as well as a whole kit parallel buss and also identically (whole kit and kick/snare) parallel busses that have different eq, comp and distortion chains. Added all together in the right blend and you can make even the weakest drum track sound like a monster.

[Everlast]

Originally Posted by Methlab

ok cool..thats what I was thinking. What kind of reverb/settings do you find works best for this? I was thinking a predelay of 0 and a larger room, but I am not sure because there are so many options.

Are you gating last? Or first? If gating last doesn't that just kill the verb too quick?

I am mainly focused on snares, but the gated reverb on kicks can be realllll nice too if it's subtle.

I've found that some chamber reverbs work pretty good on drums, probably they need some eqing after to get it closer to the real room sound . Surely, you can try room reverb and predelay it a bit. It really hard to give you the exact settings of any plugs in the chain cos I was also experimenting quite a lot to get the sound what I wanted. You can experiment with the gate also. I put the gate last cos I don't want too much of a reverb decay being raised after the compression.

[Methlab]

Thanks guys..I am going to try all these ideas out and see what I can get to bang.

[PettyCash]

Originally Posted by ryst

I also use multiple parallel busses for drums. For instance, I will have kick and snare parallel busses, as well as a whole kit parallel buss and also identically (whole kit and kick/snare) parallel busses that have different eq, comp and distortion chains. Added all together in the right blend and you can make even the weakest drum track sound like a monster.

I do exactly what you are mentioning sometimes as well. More recently I have been using a squished track for the entire kit on the regular. Its not something to swear by and always do on the regular though, it just depends on whether or not the song requires it. Great technique non the less.

On a different note, while we are on the subject of drums, I'm guessing that most of the guys who complain about their kicks not being punchy or thick enough, or their snares not having enough bite might not be using the right drum samples to begin with. I use to have that same problem way back when before I actually made it a priorty of mine to just collect, record, tweak and mangle as much of what ever different drum sounds I could get my hands on. Ever since I started getting my hands on better quality samples, and started developing my own kits, I have had less of a need to process my drums to death during mixing to get what I am looking for. I couldn't see myself spending hours in a mix session just on drums... I rather get things sounding 85% there before even thinking about leaving it for "the mix".

[computa]

I'm guessing that most of the guys who complain about their kicks not being punchy or thick enough, or their snares not having enough bite might not be using the right drum samples to begin with

Comin up as a dj I had loads of vinyl w/ instrumentals to grab drums from.

My library consists of drums that I would sample again after the mix has been done and the passes been recorded right before mastering.

Back then we did everything ssl, 2" tape, mixed w/ outboard to 1/2" tape. Sampled those right back into my mpc3000. I hardly ever parallel comp. may layer a clap on a snare but thats it. I'm ready to go out the box.

The drums r the foundation of hip hop. If they not right....

[Methlab]

I agree. These drums are banging from the break I have. I just wanted a little extra to push it, and I think I got it from these techniques. I ended up inflating the main snare and kick and doing an Eq>Compressor>Transient Designer>Reverb>delay under the snare...like 20 db under it.

I did parallel transient design to the kick and took out some lows compressed, and it just made the drums more in your face. It worked for this break..I am going to tweak the hats in parallel too a little, and then A/B and make sure its competitive..and done.

If these drums weren't on point to begin with this would be a waste of time..lol.

[ryst]

Originally Posted by PettyCash

I do exactly what you are mentioning sometimes as well. More recently I have been using a squished track for the entire kit on the regular. Its not something to swear by and always do on the regular though, it just depends on whether or not the song requires it. Great technique non the less.

On a different note, while we are on the subject of drums, I'm guessing that most of the guys who complain about their kicks not being punchy or thick enough, or their snares not having enough bite might not be using the right drum samples to begin with. I use to have that same problem way back when before I actually made it a priorty of mine to just collect, record, tweak and mangle as much of what ever different drum sounds I could get my hands on. Ever since I started getting my hands on better quality samples, and started developing my own kits, I have had less of a need to process my drums to death during mixing to get what I am looking for. I couldn't see myself spending hours in a mix session just on drums... I rather get things sounding 85% there before even thinking about leaving it for "the mix".

I agree 1000%. But when you have to mix a wack ass beat from a whack ass "producer" who has no clue about getting good sounds then the parellel stuff really comes in handy.

I wish more people would understand that their is no such thing as "fixing it in the mix".

Actually, I know this is slightly off topic but has anyone triggered or sample replaced/enhanced someone elses track that you have been hired to mix? I have a few times but the client never noticed. I do it all the time with rock songs I mix and I know it's more common in rock than in hip hop but I wonder who else has had to do this at times?

[lpuma]

I dont do mixes but some rappers come to my place with beats they made on fl n want me to redo it with bangin drums and play some stuff and transition fx.

[Methlab]

Transitions...that is something we don't talk about enough on here. I think a lot of guys get lazy on those, I am trying to tighten mine up myself. I think that is the weak spot for me, I know right when to drop them, but I find myself doing the same tricks.

This time I am going to try using the same break samples but maybe reversing some of them and using heavier effects. Obviously the pattern would be different.

I know you can always go with DJ scratches and a crash cymbal on the 1 of the chorus...but I want to get more creative.

[ryst]

There are so many things you can do with transitions. I like glitchy effects, making the beat swing right before the hook comes in, reversing things.....you're right, we don't really talk about that a lot. But in this forum, there isn't a lot of talk about "Rap + Hip Hop engineering & production".

[Methlab]

I know man, I am considering using ableton as my beat software now because it does so many things all in one program. And when it comes to arranging, I like how the clips work.

I think transitions and subtle drops and changes are what send a beat to the next level. I am hoping to get good enough at Ableton to where I can drop a snare out or mute something for a minute on the fly and kind of try ideas out like I am jamming them, instead of cutting and pasting in an editor.

I am still figuring out how to do these things in Live though...so far I can just arrange the clips..which is easy.

[lpuma]

yeah but now anyone can buy bangin drums, supernice presets, incredible loops (lol)... so the way you make your beats/arrange n your transitions n fx are the last thing that separates the beatmakers from the weekend loopstackerz.

[ryst]

Originally Posted by Methlab

I know man, I am considering using ableton as my beat software now because it does so many things all in one program. And when it comes to arranging, I like how the clips work.

I think transitions and subtle drops and changes are what send a beat to the next level. I am hoping to get good enough at Ableton to where I can drop a snare out or mute something for a minute on the fly and kind of try ideas out like I am jamming them, instead of cutting and pasting in an editor.

I am still figuring out how to do these things in Live though...so far I can just arrange the clips..which is easy.

Meth,

Ableton Live is the only thing I use for beats. The clip envelopes are insane, the follow actions are crazy, the instrument and effects racks are mind boggling, and the fact that nearly everything can be assigned to a midi controller makes it WAY MORE FUN than anything else, IMO. And that's just scrtching the surface of what the program can do!!!

I have a M-Audio Axiom and Trigger Finger that i use with it and also Battery when i feel Impulse just isn't enough. But that's it. I love it. I am not a certified expert yet (I'm trying to get there) so if you have any questions about it, let me know. I will do my best to help.

[PettyCash]

lol interesting... I actually have a free afternoon today and I'm trying to jump into Ableton Live right now myself.

I had a friend teach me all the bare basics and a few tricks, but Im still trying to feel comfy around all of its capabilities.

At the moment what I really want to figure out is how well a MPD32 works with Ableton in regards to using the 16 levels function for different things BESIDES velocity. I dont go mobile with my MPCs and I have always wanted to have some of those same great functions like note repeat and 16 levels at my disposal on the go. At the moment I have a PadKontrol that I take around with me which I bought thinking that the X-Y pad would be just the thing for doing my drum rolls . Love the lights though.

[Methlab]

Originally Posted by ryst

Meth,

Ableton Live is the only thing I use for beats. The clip envelopes are insane, the follow actions are crazy, the instrument and effects racks are mind boggling, and the fact that nearly everything can be assigned to a midi controller makes it WAY MORE FUN than anything else, IMO. And that's just scrtching the surface of what the program can do!!!

I have a M-Audio Axiom and Trigger Finger that i use with it and also Battery when i feel Impulse just isn't enough. But that's it. I love it. I am not a certified expert yet (I'm trying to get there) so if you have any questions about it, let me know. I will do my best to help.

Cool man..yeah, I got a beat about ready to go but I want to add a few transitions to it before it is there.

Also, I was wondering, say you set up a parallel buss..are you using the utility plugin first then sending that into the parallel buss? From what I can tell that keeps the overall track volume from getting too loud. I made 2 sends like that, one that excites that highs and the other the lows.

I am messing with beat repeater and am not really getting the clip envelopes or the follow actions..like I set them up the follow actions but am still not really seeing how to utilize their power. It's a lot to wrap my head around I guess when it comes to nailing the little details...how they apply to making cool transitions is my main issue to figure oyt.

[ryst]

Originally Posted by Methlab

I was wondering, say you set up a parallel buss..are you using the utility plugin first then sending that into the parallel buss? From what I can tell that keeps the overall track volume from getting too loud. I made 2 sends like that, one that excites that highs and the other the lows.

I am messing with beat repeater and am not really getting the clip envelopes or the follow actions..like I set them up the follow actions but am still not really seeing how to utilize their power. It's a lot to wrap my head around I guess when it comes to nailing the little details...how they apply to making cool transitions is my main issue to figure oyt.

For parallel busses you can us a trim plug if needed. But I honestly don't like the way Live handles some of it's routing. You can use aux sends and just not send "too much" of the signal to an aux track. But I always mix in Pro Tools so I just rewire the individual tracks from Live into Pro Tools and do all my crazy buss schemes and mixing there where I am more comfortable.

Follow actions can help with transitions in a cool way. You can make a bunch of different "transition clips" and make then a group (meaning they have to be on the same track in session view stacked together). And depending on the clip's quantization setting, you can make them do simple "rolls" (like drum rolls) and always land back on bar 1. Also, you can randomize them to death and let Live "jam" out different ideas. It's cool what you can come up with that way. I do that all the time when creating drum beats. Here is a good explanation on it:
Ableton - Tips and Tricks

Think of clip envelopes as automation. But deeper. Each clip in the session view or arrangement view has clip properties independent of the actual track automation parameters. So you can automate, pitch, volume, pan, and sample offset within the clip itself. And if you have plug ins on the track, you can automate different parameters of the plug ins within the clip. And sends too. Does that make sense? One of the cool things about the clip automation is that if the clip is a loop, you can actually "unlink" the automation parameter and extend it's loop beyond the loop of the clip. So for instance, you could make a 5 bar pan automation loop on a 4 bar drum loop so the automation never repeats back at bar 1. Sometimes I am not good with words so here are a couple links that might explain it better than me:
Ableton - Tips and Tricks
Ableton - Tips and Tricks

[Methlab]

Thanks for the links man..this is helping.

Do you like the drum rack or Impulse better for making beats out of samples?

I am using the drum rack for chopping and resequencing breaks right now.

[ryst]

Originally Posted by Methlab

Thanks for the links man..this is helping.

Do you like the drum rack or Impulse better for making beats out of samples?

I am using the drum rack for chopping and resequencing breaks right now.

Have you tried the Slice to Midi feature for chopping/re-sequencing breaks?

Here it is in action:
YouTube - Slicing Beats in Ableton Live 7
YouTube - Ableton Live 7 - Slice to Midi
YouTube - Ableton Live 7 Slice to Midi for Drum re-edits

I am still on version 6 so I use Impulse. But I need to upgrade as soon as I get some extra bucks because the new Slice to Midi feature looks incredible.

Sometimes I will even use Simpler. It's a very cool instrument.

[Methlab]

Yes, I use slice to MIDI. It is amazing and is what got me into abelton. Basically, for me, it makes chopping samples very fun. I have reall gotten creative with my sample chopping because of this function, and it is how I chop breaks also.

[ryst]

Originally Posted by Methlab

Yes, I use slice to MIDI. It is amazing and is what got me into abelton. Basically, for me, it makes chopping samples very fun. I have reall gotten creative with my sample chopping because of this function, and it is how I chop breaks also.

Well then you are one step ahead of me! I am salivating at upgrading to 7. My money is just tight for another week or so.

Do you usually slice by beat values? Have you ever sliced to Warp Markers? That looks very interesting to me.

[thethrillfactor]

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