ASR-10 swing

[kleen]

Hey all, I did a search for this on gearslutz and google and couldn't find anything so thought I'd ask the heads who know best.

People are always talking about the mpc swing but I was wondering what the deal is with the asr-10 swing, is there any?, are there any groove templates available?

Excuse my naivety if this is really common knowledge.

Thanks all!

[TTB]

@ Logic Cafe they have ASR-10 Groove templates for Logic. As far as swing; I made a lil poppy Timbaland track that seem to have a nice lil swing on it with the Template. but it could have been the Placebo Syndrome... I use the MPC 3000 grooves often though.

[riecespieces]

asking for asr swing is like asking for better demo songs on a keyboard it doesnt matter

[KevWest]

since when did ensoniq keyboards have swing? all the ones ive ever used were fairly close to stiff as hell when quantized.

[kleen]

HHmmm those templates look interesting. Seems they are claiming that the asr has a very mild swing compared to something like an mpc swing (which I also use and love).

Xabition bro, are you saying that as a real asr user you never noticed any sense of unique timeing?

Anyone else care to comment, would love to get to the bottom of this!

Professor kleen on the case

[KevWest]

actually the asr is one of the few ensoniq boards that I have not used. Its not much different than the eps classic tho from what I can tell I used an asr manual to learn it and they weren't too different. of course the asr was an upgrade and I didn't notice any kind of special swing on any of the ensoniq boards that i have used. They were all quite stiff.

[terrytee]

As far as i know the asr works with a shuffle system similar to shift on the MPC, although i haven't owned one or read the manual. I find that most pieces of music people think have a percentage setting of swing built up form the straight, such as 8 or 16, it actually will have none what so ever. At the end of the day the most common use of swing is to simply change the quantize to complement the straight feel. Most sequencers have a triplet setting which is how you can achieved this feel.

Here's a couple of links which may help you on the asr10. The top one is to e-mu which have the manual on line for downloading. The second link i a 1-13 video which may have some info, haven't seen all the videos so the best thing to do would be just down load the manual. IMHO i only put on the video so you could see the two large wicker fans behind the presenter, priceless

E-MU: Downloads

[illynoise]

The Ensoniq "swing" is when the ASR runs out of polyphony and notes get moved up or before to fit in 20 voices. Otherwise there isn't any!

[terrytee]

Originally Posted by illynoise

The Ensoniq "swing" is when the ASR runs out of polyphony and notes get moved up or before to fit in 20 voices. Otherwise there isn't any!

According to the manual that effect can also be archived via the "shift tracks by clocks" command. to quote the manual .....

"This command allows you to shift all note events on a track forward or backward in time. This can be useful for correcting MIDI delay, or creating a "lazy" or "rushed" feel when a track is shifted relative to other tracks."

same shit as MPC shift.

[earks]

atleast the classic EPS will quantize to 16T. its not real swing that would make you "bounce" like an mpc-swing, but OK for basic straight beats.

i doubt the asr groove template will be of much use in reality...

[Leon Freeze]

Just a side note to all this...when you quantize 1/8 notes in the ASR-10 the quantize puts them on .49's as in 01.01.49 compared to an MPC straight quant @ 01.01.48(standard 96ppqn). I don't think 'groove templates' can give you anything you can't create with good software. 'Swing' simply pushes notes earlier or later in a sequence depending on the specified amount and/or percentage. I've never understood all the cartwheels and champagne toasting over MPC 'swing'. Put Protools in 'slip' mode and get to work...10 times the ppqn resolution (any good DAW really).

[terrytee]

Originally Posted by Leon Freeze

Just a side note to all this...when you quantize 1/8 notes in the ASR-10 the quantize puts them on .49's as in 01.01.49 compared to an MPC straight quant @ 01.01.48(standard 96ppqn). I don't think 'groove templates' can give you anything you can't create with good software. 'Swing' simply pushes notes earlier or later in a sequence depending on the specified amount and/or percentage. I've never understood all the cartwheels and champagne toasting over MPC 'swing'. Put Protools in 'slip' mode and get to work...10 times the ppqn resolution (any good DAW really).

I think most people don't quite understand that you can achieve swing by simply placing a triplet to a quaver, semi quaver & so on. There is a huge lack of understanding when it comes to drum programing within modern production. (no one really plays the drums nor do they understand notation & as a consequence don't make use of there various notes available to them)

There are advantages to a sequencer like the MP with regards to work flow and even a sub standard ppq which often gives a more staggered or drum like feel, but a the end of the day i think most people spend to much time messing with techniques that they do not fully grasp hence forth not utilizing the technology to the same effect as there peers.

(IMHO i feel that using groove templates on a highly advanced piece of technology such as a PC or MAC will completely disregard any idiosyncrasies found in old drum machines.)

I wouldn't be surprised if some one told me that the music technology industry generates more income than the business of selling Music .

[idlabs]

Originally Posted by terrytee

I wouldn't be surprised if some one told me that the music technology industry generates more income than the business of selling Music .

Lol....What doesn't these days.


The only thing unique, timing wise, that I ever noticed about my ASR was the skip it sometimes did when the loop turned back to the 1....Used to kill me.

[JaeOne3345]

Use normal tempo (not double), a 1/16 Triplet quantize setting, and learn to use velocity. This is all you need for most boom bap type stuff at least. Use 1/16T on my sp-1200 as well. You can hear my eps16 and sp1200 programmed patterns on my myspace. I never use the swing values on the sp, just triplets..(if and when I quantize anyhow).

Most of that "feel" comes from sampling multiple kicks, snares, hats from the same break so its the "same" but each is slightly different, and using different velocities.

If it doesn't work, learn to play with swing instead of relying on a computer to do it for you. I actually enjoy how the ensoniq's don't have an auto quantize feature. It captures exactly what you play. Rhythm comes first. I don't understand the need for swing/groove templates, etc. Drummer's don't need em, neither should we.

[JaeOne3345]

Originally Posted by terrytee

I think most people don't quite understand that you can achieve swing by simply placing a triplet to a quaver, semi quaver & so on. There is a huge lack of understanding when it comes to drum programing within modern production. (no one really plays the drums nor do they understand notation & as a consequence don't make use of there various notes available to them)

Straight truth.

It's amazing how many "hiphop" producers I come across who actually can't bang out sick patterns on the pads without assistance. Lotta cats freak out when Jel and others are able to do mpc drumming. They are awesome at it, don't get me wrong, but kick, hat, snare coordination, is kick, hat, snare coordination.

A remo practice pad and some sticks would help a lot of cats out.

Speaking of that, in the near future I'll upload some photos of my homemade midi drum kit. I got instructions of the web and turned some Remo pads and a practice kick pad into triggers, which feed my alesis d4. I don't use the dated d4 sounds but I can route its midi out signal to my samplers/pc with whatever sounds I want. Pretty fun. I use a cheap sustain pedal as my hi hat pedal to switch between open and closed hat samples. Cost me like 150 total.

[earks]

i wish the mpd had inputs for kick trigger+hihat controller. would be so dope. now i have to use yamaha ptx8 for the trigger to midi.

[JaeOne3345]

If you have more then one midi IN port, use some sort of module that works with triggers as a separate midi controller. Make some drum pads into triggers, and plug em into the trigger module, which then sends midi note messages out of it into your sampler/computer.

[powarule]

The asr has swing. just dont quantize until you become very familiar with the asr10 -

of course, comparing the asr sequencer to the mpc is like comparing the mpc sampler to the asr-10.


asr10 is a supreme machine.

of ALL the samplers Ensoniq is by far the bet sounding especially when you multi layer drums. ( my god ) ---I put the sound of the asr/eps/asrx vs. any mpc any day and the ensoniq is like 10 times better. especially then new mpc crap.

[mangomixx]

Aaargh, sequencing on an ASR....

[viewingstuff]

I love the sequencer on my Mirage. It's just a tape recorder really. No bpm or click sound or anything(well you can change the speed of playback after you record). The following is done all in one fast series of motions:

Arm it
Play it!
Loop it (hit the footswitch right on beat at the end)
Layer it (overdub the loop you just made)


Could someone tell me of ANY OTHER sequencer to officially break free of any bpm clock 'wait for the click and play' please tell me because I've been doing it like this for almost 20 years it's the most natural way to sequence. Also I should mention that not only is the timing of the Mirage DEAD ACCURATE, it never really plays the same note twice there is always a slight variation in sound, velocity, and sometimes you get really cool glitches(eight separate curtis chips are firing away for each note fyi).

Try it! (doing this on computer doesn't count btw)

[Mooger83]

Swing on an ASR-10? That's a tough question to answer because it sort of implies that Ensoniq intentionally programmed a certain 'feel' or 'groove' into the sequencer back when they designed the unit God knows how many years ago.

But let's be real: despite its array of quality effects and sampling ingenuity at the time, the ASR-10 is ancient technology as far as sampling machines go today. I own an ASR-10 in my studio I can tell you that its sequencer is a little funny. It does have a certain sound to it. Subtle maybe. But it's there.

If you don't believe me, program a simple drum sequence on an ASR-10, import it into Pro Tools, and align it to the grid. You can visually see how certain beats are a little late or early. Again, it's subtle but you can hear the difference if you have a decent set of ears. Whether or not this is valuable or problematic to your project, I cannot answer.

All of this is simply common sense. The ASR-10 is an old machine. The sequencer is quirky relative to modern sequencers that lock perfectly to the grid.

Good luck in your search for the Holy Grail of samplers.

[Butters]

Originally Posted by mangomixx

Aaargh, sequencing on an ASR....

Ha! Totally, man...

Like people have said, the MPC has definitely got a different "swing" to it; a different sound too obviously, but the greatest thing about the ASR is you aren't restricted to any one thing.

Quantizing is a necessity in hip-hop to a point, you just have to know what to quantize and what NOT to quantize when trying to achieve a certain feel. You want lazy/drunken sh*t? don't quantize your hats. Don't quantize your bassline. Play them live. Play them live throughout the whole Song if you want to; it won't even sound like so much of a "beat" anymore. There's also the step edit ("edit track") function which can allow you to place wavesamples consistently on the "grid", but not necessarily where quantizing wants to put it. Like dude above me said, play with the velocity of different drum sounds--that can change the entire feel of your sequence. And you can copy wavesamples for days without taxing your memory so making different volume copies isn't a thing at all.

Fact is, just using an ASR by default nowadayz will make your beats sound slightly different from most other peoples's, cuz it's mostly MPC's or software right now. That's gotta count for something, right?

I'm waaaay more creative on an ASR than an MPC, but it's a completely different mindset. The pads as opposed to the keys will drive you in a different direction, and vice-versa.

I know people who ****ing hate ASR's, and most of us use them every day.
"Hate it and love it" has gotta be the ASR mantra...

[Studio507]

I would be inclined to absolutely disagree with the statement "quantization is necessary in hip hop to an extent".

End of rant.

[JaeOne3345]

Originally Posted by Butters

Ha! Totally, man...


Quantizing is a necessity in hip-hop to a point, you just have to know what to quantize and what NOT to quantize when trying to achieve a certain feel. You want lazy/drunken sh*t? don't quantize your hats. Don't quantize your bassline. Play them live. Play them live throughout the whole Song if you want to; it won't even sound like so much of a "beat" anymore.

Just 'cause someone doesn't use quantize doesn't mean that they're tracks will be lazy/drunken. Think about it. There are real drummers who obviously do not play with the assistance of any time correction who can play tight as hell.

If a person's track is always unintentionally sloppy when they don't use quantize, they need to work on their timing.

[Simon FP]

the easiest way to make a swing pattern on an ensoniq is to first have the kick and snare that you want to hit on 1-3-5-7 quantized and then play everything else (other kick,snare and hats)"live" and unquantized

different sounding hits and vel. will help more if you want to have a "real drummer" or breakbeat sound, (wich is normaly why peeps want swing anyway) but it's not really related to timing

[jbrown1music]

there is no quantized swing. closest u have is 16t but thats much different from the swing on a mpc. to make ya tracks feel unstiff. quatitize less and shift timing of tracks

[mgthefuture]

ITs not swing, but it does have a shift

i have them for FL...

[Butters]

Originally Posted by JaeOne3345

Just 'cause someone doesn't use quantize doesn't mean that they're tracks will be lazy/drunken. Think about it. There are real drummers who obviously do not play with the assistance of any time correction who can play tight as hell.

If a person's track is always unintentionally sloppy when they don't use quantize, they need to work on their timing.

Great points, and i definitely agree with you. I wasn't talking about being UNintentionally sloppy though, just being intentionally sloppy when the sequence calls for it. But i guess that, by default, requires the ear to be able to identify which approach is best and the talent to execute that.

[hookedonhydro]

The best swing is the sex swing, preferably at 1/64, 168-178bpm