808 kick to fit the key of the song??

[Guy Gabriel]

I've been reading a Nitti interview that one of you guys published here and he said there that he often plays the kick in the key of the song? Now how's that even possible? I mean i've been changing the pitch of bassdrums and it can definitly do good for the beat and maybe even fit it better but it's really not right to say that it's in the key of the song.

Can you assume that the key of the original 808 drum is C?
I guess it's just a matter of how you're hearing that.
Whatchu guys think?

[assemblyworker]

It's pretty simple... Put it in your sampler and tune it.

By putting it in key, analyse the key of the track your working in, whatever that is and tune the 808 to that root note, or a 5th if you like.

An engineer really should know how to do this, as should any beat maker IMO.



I usually do that by ear but if I'm struggling I'll check in something like Melodyne.

It saves a lot of unecessary EQ'ing later.

[Dr.Wu]

i think its always a good idea to tune the drums to the song. Not just the kick but also the snare and the toms.
When everything resonates in harmony it makes a better tune!

[Guy Gabriel]

I do it by hearing, do you think melodyne can analyse on what key my bassdrums is?

[qubi]

i always try to tune my kicks, especially tonal kicks (like the 808).. depending on the style, and the type of bass sound you're using, an incorrectly tuned kick can cause lots of problems, or at least some nasty clashes in the low end.

Just tune it on the sampler, and if its hard to hear, try pitching it up 12 or 24 semitones to really hear the actual key, then tune down accordingly. best of luck

[assemblyworker]

Originally Posted by Guy Gabriel

I do it by hearing, do you think melodyne can analyse on what key my bassdrums is?

Yes it can.

808s have a clearly defined pitch.

I wouldn't use the Melodyne processed kick though, I only use it as an aid when my ears feel a little fuggy. Check the key, then use the sampler to tune.

[beat you down]

if you're on windows...

Audio Downloads : AutoTune /// AnalogX

[filterayok]

The tuning of EVERY percussive element is important. Not just the 808, which is the MOST obvious that MUST be tuned. If your gonna make a 4 bar loop with only a kik snare hihat and synth, then you better be DAMN sure every element is perfectly tuned to compliment eachother. The best way is just to play with the pitch wheel as the loop plays, until the tuning of whatever your bending locks in and sounds good with the other elements playing. The neptunes made a career out of the tuning of percussive elements. Their congas were always at perfect pitches to compliment the melodies or synths. Sometimes by eqing harmonics, you can make the drums even feel MORE like they were 'meant to be.'

edit: i for some reason would rather trust my ears over any kind of auto-tuning, or pitch analyzer because percussive elements like kiks and congas sometimes have slight bends within the hit. And by using your ear you can feel where the drum should sit to really let those litte bends add a 'coolness'... sometimes things sound better slightly out of tune, so you dont want to go with that 'technically correct' mindframe that SCREWS so many musicians.

[Guy Gabriel]

man I'm learning a whole lotta s*** from this forum.

[superjc]

Or you can map the 808 kick sample across the keyboard, play it at a much higher octave and match it with another tone (it's difficult to determine the pitch way down there in boomville 66 hz!) that's how I do it.

[ONE LUV]

ok, so i´m using a software emulation of an original 808. you can tune your kick only within a very small range. maybe one whole note? does anyone know of any pitcher with automation to tune the 808 boom to the melody which isn´t as cpu hungry as the waves tuner...?!

i do not want to sample those sounds in every note, put it into a sampler and then play it. how did they do that with those original 808´s?

[Tibbon]

Umm, there's a "Tune" knob on the 808's kick drum.

Edit: Nevermind that's a tone knob. My bad. I'm so used to my Machinedrum which has a pretty huge tuning range.

[ninjasoards]

Originally Posted by ONE LUV

i do not want to sample those sounds in every note, put it into a sampler and then play it. how did they do that with those original 808´s?

They didnt. The original 808 only has a "TONE" knob, which really just controls the amount of punch in the kick. U need something like the 16 level feature on a MPC or u can program ur own kit on anything else. Just use the same sample and pitch it up/down in 1 semitone increments...I programmed my own kit on my triton using the factory 808 sample. The original pitch was a A# I think. It's nice to have it ready to go and in the right keys on the keyboard...but i still end up just programming it by ear on the MPC half the time...anyway, try it.

[WhyBe]

Originally Posted by Guy Gabriel

I do it by hearing, do you think melodyne can analyse on what key my bassdrums is?

Never use that pitch shifting stuff on drums. It kills the integrity and punch of drum samples. Just tune them with the sampler. Like someone said earlier, just temporarily tune the 808 kick an octave higher so you can "hear" better how it's clashing or not. Once you nail the pitch, go back down an octave (-12 semitones/notes).

[assemblyworker]

Originally Posted by WhyBe

Never use that pitch shifting stuff on drums. It kills the integrity and punch of drum samples. Just tune them with the sampler. Like someone said earlier, just temporarily tune the 808 kick an octave higher so you can "hear" better how it's clashing or not. Once you nail the pitch, go back down an octave (-12 semitones/notes).

Word!

When I said use Melodyne I only suggested that as a check in case you wern't trusting you're hearing at such a low frequency. The raise it an octave is a good tip.

Pitch shifting WILL AFFECT THE PUNCH AND WEIGHT of the kick.

[ONE LUV]

Originally Posted by ninjasoards

They didnt. The original 808 only has a "TONE" knob, which really just controls the amount of punch in the kick. U need something like the 16 level feature on a MPC or u can program ur own kit on anything else. Just use the same sample and pitch it up/down in 1 semitone increments...I programmed my own kit on my triton using the factory 808 sample. The original pitch was a A# I think. It's nice to have it ready to go and in the right keys on the keyboard...but i still end up just programming it by ear on the MPC half the time...anyway, try it.

hey ninja, thx for your reply. i use nepheton from d16. it is a really good emulation of the original 808. as you have control over different parameters which are also automated, it would be dumb to just sample the sounds once for every key and playing them with a sampler. you loose control over decay and so on. so there must be a solution for using the emulation with some like a automatable pitcher. as i said before, waves tuner is very very cpu hungry.

are there any not so hungry solutions?

[WhyBe]

Originally Posted by ONE LUV

hey ninja, thx for your reply. i use nepheton from d16. it is a really good emulation of the original 808. as you have control over different parameters which are also automated, it would be dumb to just sample the sounds once for every key and playing them with a sampler. you loose control over decay and so on. so there must be a solution for using the emulation with some like a automatable pitcher. as i said before, waves tuner is very very cpu hungry.

are there any not so hungry solutions?

Are there no "backdoor" ways of controlling the d16 parameters - such as control changes or sysex?

Another way is to place different versions of the same sound on multiple pads. This will give some variety that you are looking for.

[WhyBe]

From the d16/nepheton website:

Most of Nepheton's parameters can be automated within the host and also controlled using MidiCC with an external controller. An easy-to-use Midi Learn function allows reassignment of any of the parameters.

[WhyBe]

Originally Posted by moracspace

Could you imagine doing this to a real kick after every track is cut.Alright buddy we are in C# so get down there and tune to my e string real quik like, dude.

.....which is why real kicks aren't used

[Darm]

I dream of having a Vestax Controller One.
You can tune the drums on them analogue way!
You just connect a midi keyboard, and then play any note on it, and it will change the pitch of the playing record!!!

[Tibbon]

Originally Posted by WhyBe

.....which is why real kicks aren't used

errr... I've had two kicks being used at once in a song, tuned differently. I've also retuned for Verse/Chorus sections if there are in totally different keys. And by that I mean on a real kit. Not for every note of course.

[beat you down]

Originally Posted by assemblyworker

Pitch shifting WILL AFFECT THE PUNCH AND WEIGHT of the kick.

if it wouldn't what would be the use anyway?

as long as you start out with a kick that's somewhere around the pitch you need for it to fit the song's root it's a perfect way to get it locked imo.

punch and weight can also be enhanced by adsr shaping and precise
(note related) eqing.

[8th]

are there plugins that can detect the key of a sample, or a channel in your host?

[dlmorley]

Personally I don't like hearing a tuned to the song 808.. or most the tunes I do like with an 808 don't do it.

[beat you down]

you really ARE borat right?

[dlmorley]

WOOOSHH
humour flying over my head

[assemblyworker]

Originally Posted by dlmorley

WOOOSHH
humour flying over my head

This happens rather a lot round here I find.

[beat you down]

what do you expect with an avatar like that?

[WhyBe]

Originally Posted by beat you down

you really ARE borat right?

Pretty funny

[taturana]

Originally Posted by moracspace

Could you imagine doing this to a real kick after every track is cut.Alright buddy we are in C# so get down there and tune to my e string real quik like, dude.

well, everytime i record drums or percussions i try to tune the drums to the song i am recording... it can really really help your drum sound...