Auto Tune v.s. Waves Tune

[Dirty Halo]

Originally Posted by organik

a good singer who dosent sing out of key !! LOL

Which is better integration and easier to use within Pro Tools> Waves Tune or Melodtne?

And what do you have to do to each to make work, any importing or are they all integrated enough to work as simple pull-down plugs by now?

Thanks

-a

[Tony Shepperd]

Originally Posted by macleodgrant

well here's a quick example of just taking a dry vocal and shifting it up by 5 semitones with both melodyne and tune. there's been no tuning though at all

Thanks for posting these samples.
This confirms what I have found disliked about Melodyne.
There are to many artifacts for me.
Every time I get a track from someone to mix and they have used Melodyne, there has always been a ton of artifacts left after processing.

[macleodgrant]

Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd

Thanks for posting these samples.
This confirms what I have found disliked about Melodyne.
There are to many artifacts for me.
Every time I get a track from someone to mix and they have used Melodyne, there has always been a ton of artifacts left after processing.

i'm going to run a more real world testing between melodyne & tune on this particular vocal (just tuning though)! it's a vocal from 3 years ago and pretty crap quality but all i have for the track so it is what it is...

i will do it in both melodyne and waves and will also let you know my opinion with regards to usability which so far leans in melodyne's favour

[Steve MacMillan]

To really judge the difference between Tune and Melodyne you have to hear what an expert with each can do with it.

For instance, Melodyne does some really weird things on esses and breaths. A Melodyne expert would probably seperate the breaths so there is no shifting on those bits.

Tune sounds far better when you delete all of the auto created curves, let it trace the real pitch curve and edit the bits that need tuning without the lookahead.

I like them both. Tune has some real advantages tracking difficult material. I do a lot of live mixing for DVD and nothing tracks thru trashy leakage like Tune. Melodyne is not even close. You can't stretch with Tune.

With clean material, and some knowledge about how to avoid artifacts, they both work very well. It's a bit like saying, which is better a C12 or a Tele 251? A lot of it comes down to who's driving.

STeve

[danielbest]

Originally Posted by macleodgrant

i'm going to run a more real world testing between melodyne & tune on this particular vocal (just tuning though)! it's a vocal from 3 years ago and pretty crap quality but all i have for the track so it is what it is...

i will do it in both melodyne and waves and will also let you know my opinion with regards to usability which so far leans in melodyne's favour

i'm waiting for your audio files to compare.. thanks...

[Tetness]

Waves Tunes thumbsupthumbsup

[macleodgrant]

Originally Posted by danielbest

i'm waiting for your audio files to compare.. thanks...

cool, just busy finishing the bass in the track and then i'm going on to the vocals. i should have something by the end of next week...sorry for the delay!

i was working on a bass track last night in melodyne plugin to adjust the timing and just putting it through melodyne screwed it up! i don't think i'm going to use it to edit this bass track because of that. ok, the bass isn't that great to start with and i've had better success with other bass tracks but i just made it so much worse. i reckon i will post samples of that too, i.e. what the track sounds like once it's just been recorded into the plugin!

[danielbest]

i'm re-posting what i think about Tune:

i've seen here a lot of people who use Melodyne and Auto-Tune, but what do you think about Waves Tune? i think Auto-Tune is crap (you tune anything and its sound plastic and metalic), i've heard Melodyne and i think it sounds much more natural, it's harder to notice when its working, BUT... the sound quality of the vocals its so bad, i thinks its sounds darker and lifeless, like something with a hollow inside, in addition the audio detection some times is not correct and the vocals sound with some artifacts (i hate that), on the other hand, Waves Tune in some parts, mainly in note transitions, sounds more noticiable, but just with some extreme adjusts like 4 semitones... in spite of that i think Tune blows Melodyne in audio quality, and i think it's very difficult to notice that it's working on my vocals, obviously if you set well the parameters for every note manually with care to make it sounds tuned but natural (there has to be a balance)... what do you think Tune users?? or i'm wrong and finally Melodyne it's better than waves Tune??

(sorry for my english).

[Mikey MTC]

Like some of the others here, I've got both and in the perfect world I think you need both.

I think for overall quality and lack of artifacts, Waves Tune is the best. Another advantage of Waves Tune is the ease at which you can draw in the notes you need. Like when the singer does some bizarre Mariah Carey style super lick and notes fly everywhere. It's easy with Tune to put those notes where they need to be, including getting the slides to start and finish at the right place. Yes, Melodyne pretty much does this too but Waves' ability to pencil in the right notes like a MIDI piano roll makes it the easiest.

Also, if detection is getting difficult you can pre-EQ with a lot of HPF and LPF while detecting and then disable it for playback. You can't do that with the Melodyne plugin because it would record that filtered sound as the audio.

Having said that, Melodyne I personally find easier to use. The plugin is a hassle because you can't use any key commands but at least you can blow the plugin screen up nice and big. The stand-alone version is the bomb the way you can assign key commands to almost everything and edit multiple tracks all a once.

On the whole - if I've got to do a massive, often perilous job, I'll use Melodyne. If I've got to do a single lead vocal and I want the absolute most invisible tuning possible, I'll use Waves Tune. For background vocals I'll often use the Audiosuite version of Waves Tune because then it's in and out and you haven't got a plugin lying around chewing CPU cycles.

I'd definitely miss either one if I lost it though.

[macleodgrant]

i said i would do a shootout and did one but my experiences were of frustration.

waves tune is not a user friendly plugin like melodyne.
horizontal scrolling with mouse wheel doesn't work
navigation in general just feels miles away from melodyne! if you could resize the interface it would help a lot but the interface is just too small. the detection can be a bit of a nightmare. if you detect an entire piece and it detects only a few notes incorrectly (which it did) then you have to remove those parts and then change the RANGE and rescan that part of the audio! this is very counterintuitive as i had to do a couple of passes to get it right!

i tried to capture a bass track for tuning but for some reason tune didn't appear to record most of the notes as if it were out of range. i gave up on this!

the tools are also unintuitive and you should read the manual to understand the tools to use them properly. the most frustrating part is that you can't seem to control the tuning with a tool but rather have to first select the note, then turn 3 knobs (note transition, speed & ratio) to get the effect that you're looking for. it's a little less fussy than melodyne with regards to the relation between the appearance of the tuning curve and what you hear. if you draw in a curve yourself and there's a glitch in your drawing then it doesn't seem to sound whereas in melodyne if there's a glitch then you hear it (it seems to have a tolerance). i also found i couldn't get the effect i wanted at the note transition and it was necessary to draw in the tuning line but my drawing aint so good and there doesn't appear to be a way to smooth out your drawing afterwards! i just got too frustrated and spent way too much time trying to get it right. splines would be great here!

waves tune, once it captures the vocal and if detection is correct, before any changes are made, it does sound more natural than melodyne. tuning capabilities i found could be similar and you can push tune a little further than melodyne but IMO it's just a lot harder than i feel it needs to be. it took ages to get anywhere with it that i just gave up and went to melodyne! i think i'll wait for Tune V2 if it ever happens though for a quick edit to a word or phrase i think it could be quick! i prefer melodyne's approach in that where you remove the audio from melodyne, it reverts to the original audio on the track (unaffected) whereas with tune you don't have the option so you would have to put it on a new track!

melodyne for navigation and how intuitive it is to use is just amazing and DAW designers should take some tips from these guys!
zooming, mouse wheel and panning are a dream. you can correct the detection too which save a bit of time.

melodyne captured the bass track that waves tune wouldn't but it affected the sound way too much. the bass was nice and full and after just being recorded into melodyne the quality was affected in a big way. i then decided to edit the bass manually and ignore the tuning issues which weren't too bad anyways.

for vocals, melodyne is a real lifesaver. for instance, if you are trying to make harmonies sit in time with the main vocal for better intelligibility then it's all possible here and the tools to do it are so intuitive. you don't even need to read the manual to use this plugin, seriously! the interface can be made larger so it's much easier to navigate. unlike tune, it doesn't have rewire capabilities so you can't navigate your session within the plugin alone. i didn't find this to be a huge limitation as i used logics 'play from left window edge' key command and just scrolled over the session keeping the part i'm working on at the left of the arrange. i always had to click to activate the arrange before i could scroll (using mouse wheel) though in leopard this should no longer be an issue!

navigation from within plugins should get a lot easier as the new audio unit implementation (i think new in leopard) allows plugins to now send midi information to the DAW which is very interesting and would mean waves tune wouldn't need to use rewire to set locate points, etc and also means it shouldn't be too long before melodyne has similar functionality!

conclusion
waves tune
waves need to rethink the tools a little bit more and add a tool that allows you to graphically tune and adjust note transition rather than using the knobs.
detection should be easier to adjust after being captured
should be able to resize the interface
should be able to smooth the tuning line after you've drawn in your own or they should implement splines as a drawing option

waves tune has a lot of power but its made difficult to use by the lack of navigation options. the quality is good and in caes better than melodyne but i feel they need to implement the note transition and speed into tools...much like the 'demodulation' in melodyne. i need to try tuning a different bass track but i don't see why i shouldn't be able to do this in tune...i will keep you updated!

melodyne
great interface, great tools and easy to access. the fact you can edit timings can be a real lifesaver. sometimes (dependent on mic and preamp used) i've noticed the vocal loses a bit of highs (air) and is slightly darkened - this isn't always the case. the fact you can edit the detection is great. the fact the bass track changed so much just lets us know that we should be relying on these kinds of tools to 'fix in the mix' and that we should always try and get the best at source.
for the most part the artefacts are minimal in vocal tuning

one more thing, i found waves tune great for helping to come up with harmony ideas and for that tune sounds more natural to me! it captures quick and you can just push notes to wherever you want and it helped me to show the vocalist what i was looking for

[B-Muzik]

YES melodyne is the best but outta waves and auto-tune waves comes in 1st...

1st Place: Melodyne
2nd Place: Waves Tune
3rd Place: Antares Auto Tune

Auto Tune is good but sometime it has to change the voice to end it in tune...it can create an effect that sounds cool but sometimes u dont want that and the only thing that u want is the natural sounding voice...

[B-Muzik]

Originally Posted by macleodgrant

i said i would do a shootout and did one but my experiences were of frustration.

waves tune is not a user friendly plugin like melodyne.
horizontal scrolling with mouse wheel doesn't work
navigation in general just feels miles away from melodyne! if you could resize the interface it would help a lot but the interface is just too small. the detection can be a bit of a nightmare. if you detect an entire piece and it detects only a few notes incorrectly (which it did) then you have to remove those parts and then change the RANGE and rescan that part of the audio! this is very counterintuitive as i had to do a couple of passes to get it right!

i tried to capture a bass track for tuning but for some reason tune didn't appear to record most of the notes as if it were out of range. i gave up on this!

the tools are also unintuitive and you should read the manual to understand the tools to use them properly. the most frustrating part is that you can't seem to control the tuning with a tool but rather have to first select the note, then turn 3 knobs (note transition, speed & ratio) to get the effect that you're looking for. it's a little less fussy than melodyne with regards to the relation between the appearance of the tuning curve and what you hear. if you draw in a curve yourself and there's a glitch in your drawing then it doesn't seem to sound whereas in melodyne if there's a glitch then you hear it (it seems to have a tolerance). i also found i couldn't get the effect i wanted at the note transition and it was necessary to draw in the tuning line but my drawing aint so good and there doesn't appear to be a way to smooth out your drawing afterwards! i just got too frustrated and spent way too much time trying to get it right. splines would be great here!

waves tune, once it captures the vocal and if detection is correct, before any changes are made, it does sound more natural than melodyne. tuning capabilities i found could be similar and you can push tune a little further than melodyne but IMO it's just a lot harder than i feel it needs to be. it took ages to get anywhere with it that i just gave up and went to melodyne! i think i'll wait for Tune V2 if it ever happens though for a quick edit to a word or phrase i think it could be quick! i prefer melodyne's approach in that where you remove the audio from melodyne, it reverts to the original audio on the track (unaffected) whereas with tune you don't have the option so you would have to put it on a new track!

melodyne for navigation and how intuitive it is to use is just amazing and DAW designers should take some tips from these guys!
zooming, mouse wheel and panning are a dream. you can correct the detection too which save a bit of time.

melodyne captured the bass track that waves tune wouldn't but it affected the sound way too much. the bass was nice and full and after just being recorded into melodyne the quality was affected in a big way. i then decided to edit the bass manually and ignore the tuning issues which weren't too bad anyways.

for vocals, melodyne is a real lifesaver. for instance, if you are trying to make harmonies sit in time with the main vocal for better intelligibility then it's all possible here and the tools to do it are so intuitive. you don't even need to read the manual to use this plugin, seriously! the interface can be made larger so it's much easier to navigate. unlike tune, it doesn't have rewire capabilities so you can't navigate your session within the plugin alone. i didn't find this to be a huge limitation as i used logics 'play from left window edge' key command and just scrolled over the session keeping the part i'm working on at the left of the arrange. i always had to click to activate the arrange before i could scroll (using mouse wheel) though in leopard this should no longer be an issue!

navigation from within plugins should get a lot easier as the new audio unit implementation (i think new in leopard) allows plugins to now send midi information to the DAW which is very interesting and would mean waves tune wouldn't need to use rewire to set locate points, etc and also means it shouldn't be too long before melodyne has similar functionality!

conclusion
waves tune
waves need to rethink the tools a little bit more and add a tool that allows you to graphically tune and adjust note transition rather than using the knobs.
detection should be easier to adjust after being captured
should be able to resize the interface
should be able to smooth the tuning line after you've drawn in your own or they should implement splines as a drawing option

waves tune has a lot of power but its made difficult to use by the lack of navigation options. the quality is good and in caes better than melodyne but i feel they need to implement the note transition and speed into tools...much like the 'demodulation' in melodyne. i need to try tuning a different bass track but i don't see why i shouldn't be able to do this in tune...i will keep you updated!

melodyne
great interface, great tools and easy to access. the fact you can edit timings can be a real lifesaver. sometimes (dependent on mic and preamp used) i've noticed the vocal loses a bit of highs (air) and is slightly darkened - this isn't always the case. the fact you can edit the detection is great. the fact the bass track changed so much just lets us know that we should be relying on these kinds of tools to 'fix in the mix' and that we should always try and get the best at source.
for the most part the artefacts are minimal in vocal tuning

one more thing, i found waves tune great for helping to come up with harmony ideas and for that tune sounds more natural to me! it captures quick and you can just push notes to wherever you want and it helped me to show the vocalist what i was looking for

Yeah melodyne is really user friendly...thats crazy! And its sick!

[ricfoxx]

Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd

Thanks for posting these samples.
This confirms what I have found disliked about Melodyne.
There are to many artifacts for me.
Every time I get a track from someone to mix and they have used Melodyne, there has always been a ton of artifacts left after processing.

Tony, I completely agree! I do not know how people hear those weird artifacts and think in a professional setting that is appropriate. But here comes the flamesstike

[Krunchie]

Originally Posted by ricfoxx

Tony, I completely agree! I do not know how people hear those weird artifacts and think in a professional setting that is appropriate. But here comes the flamesstike

Not to flame ya, but I love melodyne.. It can be real subtle, you hardly know it's there.. Well I don't anyway

[coyotekells]

macleod, great insights man!!

Tune: my number one qualm is I can't figure out how to leave parts of the vocal UNAFFECTED! I often prefer to only tune/edit the parts of the performance I can hear errors in.. the rest I leave exactly as it was (assuming I'm working with a good singer).

How the **** do you do this without moving those parts to another track all together?


AutoTune: AT will remain a staple in every studio, no matter what they mix with, because you will get clients that NEED AT at tracking stage. You can be a purist all you want, but the reality is that some hit record makers (and lots of non-hit record makers) need to track their bad singing through AT. I want to give the client whatever makes them comfortable, and if they need to hear the tuned vocal in their headphones to get vibing, then I want to give it to them. I'm really not concerned with "vocal skills" as much as someone who can just make a great record. I've heard singers who's skill was amazing, but it didn't make them special on the track.. something with a more interesting voice, better vibe, and lots of AT (not T-pain, just no more flat notes)

Melodyne is super cool, but I've never used it extensively.. only when I had a surgical project I couldn't fix with anything else..

If you're tracking mostly, choose AT -- it will work for more situations.

If you're just editing/mixing, then Tune and/or Melodyne will serve better.


Btw, why do people thing AT sucks so bad? I think it's lack of knowing how to operate it correctly mixed with bad singing. If you have a singer who's good and just hit a few notes that could've been more on point, AT smooths everything out without ever touching graphical mode or doing anything fancy with the knobs. and if u need to really change things, the graphical mode seems to be sufficient... or maybe i'm the inexperienced one?

[s12512]

Originally Posted by .Powell.

autotune is the same thing, but it automatically tunes your tracks in realtime

the same as what?? not melodyne!

[Trell Blaze]

Personally, I think Auto-tune is better for...well...auto tuning and Waves Tune is better for flatout manhandling a vocal track (yes, I'm aware that auto-tune has manual function as well but to my ears the waves version is better at this).

I would chose Waves tune over Melodyne for ease of use.

Waves Tune is ****in excellent on R&B background vocals. It takes several hours if you do a lot of vocal stacking but believe me it's well worth it. It sounds more natural and less boxy than the sound I get from Auto-tune.

However, there are still many cases when auto-tune is exactly what I need so I'd have to say I use both equally.

[coyotekells]

Originally Posted by Steve MacMillan

Tune sounds far better when you delete all of the auto created curves, let it trace the real pitch curve and edit the bits that need tuning without the lookahead.

I've sent Steve a PM about this, to ask for further clarification.. I'm just givin Waves Tune a real world test.. and I want to just tune a few small things, without sabotaging the rest of the vocal articulation in the performance...

I'm new high-scrutiny tuning...I want to keep it invisible, yet ad the "perfection" of the slightly quantized pitch in the runs, riffs, etc.

[orenrs]

I think that the Waves Tune is better that the Auto Tune because it sounds much more natural.

Also, i saw a funny bug with Auto Tune under Logic. when you in graphic mode, and you jump few few samples/bars/seconds forward, the Auto Tune pich down the Vocal. You can't work like that.

Also, the Waves Tune graphic is much mire clear to the eye than the Auto Tune.

And also you have this sine sound that helps you in case you don't know

Characters.

[phillysoulman]

Answer--Find talent that can actually sing in tune and "producers" with perfect pitch.
Case closed

[Mikey MTC]

Still, 50 posts before the railroad troll post isn't too bad.

Now phillysoulman your work here is done. I'm sure there's a Beat Detective debate somewhrere on Gearslutz where you can dive in and say:

"Answer--Find talent that can actually play drums in time and "producers" with perfect time.
Case closed."

[phillysoulman]

Originally Posted by Mikey MTC

Still, 50 posts before the railroad troll post isn't too bad.

Now phillysoulman your work here is done. I'm sure there's a Beat Detective debate somewhrere on Gearslutz where you can dive in and say:

"Answer--Find talent that can actually play drums in time and "producers" with perfect time.
Case closed."

Yep.
Got that right.

[AcoosticZoo]

Originally Posted by Keyflo

Hey which is better, I seen the vids with Waves tune and Auto tune, And i think Waves tune takes the cake.......Wut do u guys think

With the new release of AutoTune EVO, things are really heating up. IMO:

Autotune EVO beats Waves Tune Lite V6 in AUTO MODE in terms of a "musically creative" result. ie. That Unique "Autotuned" Sound that many producers do love has gotten better.

The common radio listener (not in our audio profession) may not even realise something sounds "TUNED". They actually kinda like it cos the pitch sounds supa polished - akin to polish brushing photos in Photoshop common in Fashion Mags.

EVO has a very musical and creative sound the way it moves the notes into pitch, Whilst Waves Tune sounds very Natural and Pristine without pitch shifting artefacts associated with severe pitch shifting. Cool to have both for different colours in a mixing situation.

In the context of a song, both tools would be useful. I'm leaning towards Autotune EVO becos it's sounds "sexier" and produces a more "Enchanced" result whilst Waves Tune is more "Al Natural". I do love both in the mixing/recording studio, and use them according to the audio directive.

Terms of quality, they both slaughter the quality of a recording in Auto Mode. You just can't slap it on the whole performance and say you're done.

Amazing Revelations when you actually compare them side by side. You can below. Both in Auto Mode. The Singer has sexy voice.
Acoustic Guitars and Production by yours truly and is typical of my "Acoustic Production Style" that I offer my clients at Acoostic Zoo.

Hope that helps KeyFlo

Peace.
Josef Horhay
Acoustic Producer and Mixer.

[voicegenius]

Originally Posted by organik

a good singer who dosent sing out of key !! LOL

Unfortunately, my friend, 95% of today's singers do... Wait... make that 98%

[andrewj]

So,

you guys would say:

AutoTune Evo is the sexiest?

Waves Tune is the most natural?

Melodyne is so wonderful, but full of artifacts?

So which one do you guys use for not noticalbe results! Which one will give you the shortes learning curve for that job!?

I made some real time taking jobs in Melodyne and it worked well for me. But perhaps I ignore artifacts at all! Hahaha

Tony Sheppard: I like your stuff a lot. You dislike Melodyne, but do you use one of the tools mentioned for natural correction? What would be your advise?

[logichead]

Originally Posted by coyotekells

I've sent Steve a PM about this, to ask for further clarification.. I'm just givin Waves Tune a real world test.. and I want to just tune a few small things, without sabotaging the rest of the vocal articulation in the performance...

I'm new high-scrutiny tuning...I want to keep it invisible, yet ad the "perfection" of the slightly quantized pitch in the runs, riffs, etc.

I use all 3, Waves Tune is my preference, but I don't know what Steve is talking about here - he's come up with a technique I'm unaware of.

(Originally Posted by Steve MacMillan - "Tune sounds far better when you delete all of the auto created curves, let it trace the real pitch curve and edit the bits that need tuning without the lookahead.")

When he clarifies this will you post it? Thanks.

Best...H

[3rd Degree]

Great thread. I want melodine for things beside vocals and this thread confirms it probably is the best choice for what I want to do (hard to explain).

[phillysoulman]

Originally Posted by Mikey MTC

Still, 50 posts before the railroad troll post isn't too bad.

Now phillysoulman your work here is done. I'm sure there's a Beat Detective debate somewhrere on Gearslutz where you can dive in and say:

"Answer--Find talent that can actually play drums in time and "producers" with perfect time.
Case closed."

Thats right.

[Reggmail]

Hello Gearslutz Family, I do lots of reading on this forum and little posting, but I was curious as to see if anyone used ''Roland V-vocal'' with variphrase technology?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcFBnUWpViQ&NR=1 From Sonar 5 to Sonar 8.
I don't believe it comes as a stand alone it's part of Sonar DAW.

I do have ''Melodyne 3 cre8'' and didn't like the way it's bridge plug worked into my Daw, same when using it in rewire mode, it was very CPU intensive. I have an original ''Digitech Talker'' that was said to be the same type that was used on the Cher track, and I also have Sonar V-vocal by Roland along with a Roland Rack VP-9000.
For overall effect sounds I like the ''Digitech Talker'' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-lYyFpyMe8 for vocal pitching effects. For back round harmony tuning I use the ''Sonar V-vocal'' that works flawlessly in Sonar, or the TC- Heloicon Voiceworks.
Voiceworks http://www.tc-helicon.com/voicelive2.asp?video=voicelive2/voicelive2_10presets.flv is better for live use as well ( Module version) it must be set for each song though.
With lots of options available I guess in the long run it's all subjective...everyone likes, as well as dislikes are different. Although I may not always agree, my RESPECT is due to all.
Peace & blessings.

[T. Gundersen]

I have both AT Evo and Melodyne plug-in, but I never got Melodyne plug-in to work right. There's always little timing issues with it for me, using it in Logic. I have a few colleagues who are having the same problems with it but also know people that haven't noticed anything.