how do i make my instruments sound big? and evident on a record?

[jsg1e]

OK so i've stacked my drums, and made them sound like i've wanted to.... but now i'm having issues with my instruments.... how do i make my instruments sound big... like Rodney Jerkins, or Scott Storch...ect... how do they make their instruments sound so big & evident? even when i use instruments that are in the same family as theirs, they still don't sound as big in my mix like they do in theirs... is there some sort of trick to that?

[tengu]

Start by tracking them through some nice preamps.

This will give them depth and space in the mix.

Different pre's for different textures. One stereo would do to begin with.

A-designs pacifica is a nice place to start.

[J Twin]

Here's a few techniques:

1) Layer instruments. Horns sound thin? Have two or more different horn patches playing the same melody.
2) Layer octaves. Adding a lower or higher octave in the same melody can fatten thangs up.
3) EQ. Read up on it.
4) Compression. See EQ.
5) Delay. A short delay can add depth.
6) Reverb
7) Chorus

[e-are]

use fattening on some inst. take a track and copy it or use your aux to make another track then put up to a 30 second delay on the 2nd track. pan them oppisite!

[Dante310]

Originally Posted by e-are

use fattening on some inst. take a track and copy it or use your aux to make another track then put up to a 30 second delay on the 2nd track. pan them oppisite!

he means 30 miliseconds or less. listeners will hear something delayed this short as one bigger sound, so this can help a lot. honestly though i've found stacking and eq'ing to be the best for this. reverb is important also.

[Yankee Doodle]

A high end (or Class A) mic pre, instrument direct, compressor will make a big difference. Here's a short list...

Avalon SP737 - Mic/Inst preamp, compressor, and E.Q. (ultra clean and tranparent - popular wih the hip-hop R and B crowd).

Summit MPC-1000 - Mic/Inst preamp, and compressor. (can dial in lots of harmonic distortion for a warm sound - popular with the alternative and grunge dudes).

Universal Audio M610 - Mic/Inst preamp, compressor and E.Q. (cross between the two above mentioned units).

Those were all single channel units...Lemme know if you want some stereo recommendations...or additional clarification.

Now it's time to play with the big dawgz...

Best,
Y.D.B.

[ryst]

I think some you guys are missing a very important point. Without hearing your tracks I have no way of telling how well they are being mixed.


Bottom Line: In order for something to sound big, something else has to sound small. The arrangement is one of the most important factors. If you are layering and layering a bunch of instruments, then they are all fighting to be heard and everything will sound small. You will be surprised how much something can sound big if it's not fighting with a bunch of other instruments. A more sparse arrangement is one way of cleaning things out. The more you layer instruments, the more small they have to become so everything fits.

[Tibbon]

Uhh.. dont' put everything through one "golden channel", as it's all going to sound the same.

Mess with different flavours of stuff. Track it right the FIRST time. Get better players, and instruments. Maybe your room sucks?

[PettyCash]

Originally Posted by ryst

Bottom Line: In order for something to sound big, something else has to sound small. The arrangement is one of the most important factors. If you are layering and layering a bunch of instruments, then they are all fighting to be heard and everything will sound small. You will be surprised how much something can sound big if it's not fighting with a bunch of other instruments. A more sparse arrangement is one way of cleaning things out. The more you layer instruments, the more small they have to become so everything fits.

Takes a lot of practice for most people to be able to get it right too.
Not golden channels, not different pres, yes they could help, but they are not the correct answer to this question, they are just ways of adding different flavours to a mix. Its all about knowing how to get your mixes sounding more 3D in comparison to a 2D cardboard type of sound which is evident in a majority of amatuer mixes. You have to be able to manage each sound in the mix and create diversity between them in order to make mixes that sound bigger than life.

I know guys who only have the pres on their mackie boards, who still track their audio into one of the earilest versions of cubase, and have only a select few pieces of outboard gear, that still manage to get mixes that display great depth, all because they understand the concept of getting a 3D mix, and know how to achieve such.

For the sake of this being Gearslutz, sure go out and buy yourself some new pres while you are at it, and have fun!

[nickynicknick]

Originally Posted by ryst

I think some you guys are missing a very important point. Without hearing your tracks I have no way of telling how well they are being mixed.


Bottom Line: In order for something to sound big, something else has to sound small. The arrangement is one of the most important factors. If you are layering and layering a bunch of instruments, then they are all fighting to be heard and everything will sound small. You will be surprised how much something can sound big if it's not fighting with a bunch of other instruments. A more sparse arrangement is one way of cleaning things out. The more you layer instruments, the more small they have to become so everything fits.

this is the best advice ever!...listen to this man...he speaks the TRUTH!!!...telling the guy to stack, copy process etc is shitty advice for someone who is obviously eager to learn...do what the man above says first, then try all the other bullshit.

[MYAMS]

Who the f@%k would wanna emulate rodney jerkins or scott storch today??!!!

[Alex Niedt]

Originally Posted by ryst

Bottom Line: In order for something to sound big, something else has to sound small. The arrangement is one of the most important factors. If you are layering and layering a bunch of instruments, then they are all fighting to be heard and everything will sound small. You will be surprised how much something can sound big if it's not fighting with a bunch of other instruments. A more sparse arrangement is one way of cleaning things out. The more you layer instruments, the more small they have to become so everything fits.

Gotta jump on the agreement bandwagon. Really good advice.

[beat you down]

forget about 'the right' gear for now...
proper (sparse) arrangements is where it's at indeed!!!

[TheArchitect]

Originally Posted by jsg1e

OK so i've stacked my drums, and made them sound like i've wanted to.... but now i'm having issues with my instruments.... how do i make my instruments sound big... like Rodney Jerkins, or Scott Storch...ect... how do they make their instruments sound so big & evident? even when i use instruments that are in the same family as theirs, they still don't sound as big in my mix like they do in theirs... is there some sort of trick to that?

For something to sound big something else has to be small. John Bonham is a prime example. They weren't massive sounding drums per se but when there is nothing else sharing sonic space they can be right upfront in the mix where they sound huge.

[TheArchitect]

Originally Posted by Tibbon

Uhh.. dont' put everything through one "golden channel", as it's all going to sound the same.

Mess with different flavours of stuff. Track it right the FIRST time. Get better players, and instruments. Maybe your room sucks?

I disagree. Up until relatively recently albums were tracked entirely through the desk the studio owned, ie all the same pre.

In fact I would argue the opposite. Using the same pre for most or all the tracks allows the mix a certain cohesiveness.

[sedohr]

Originally Posted by jsg1e

OK so i've stacked my drums, and made them sound like i've wanted to.... but now i'm having issues with my instruments.... how do i make my instruments sound big... like Rodney Jerkins, or Scott Storch...ect... how do they make their instruments sound so big & evident? even when i use instruments that are in the same family as theirs, they still don't sound as big in my mix like they do in theirs... is there some sort of trick to that?

Just to clear things up: Drums = Not instruments...right ??

Kalli

[Tibbon]

Originally Posted by TheArchitect

I disagree. Up until relatively recently albums were tracked entirely through the desk the studio owned, ie all the same pre.

In fact I would argue the opposite. Using the same pre for most or all the tracks allows the mix a certain cohesiveness.

I have no problem using the same pre on many things (But if you have choices why not try a few different ones? It would feel wrong for me to only touch the API pres, and never touch the Shadow Hills Industry or the Grace in the rack (I mean it just requires a quick repatch).

I was more against running everything through the same pre, eq, comp, etc. Yea, i know again, most stuff in the past has been tracked through a single console. I just feel that using something like a 610 over an entire record (bass, guitar, drums, vox, keys) would sound like utter shit. Maybe something more neutral would be ok.

[B-Muzik]

to be honest I think everyone has great ideas but alot of times u dont have to go get 610's or VT737s or even 3124s...really to fatten things up you need to have a proper mix...if you are still satisfied with your sound after you mix...get some great plugins and us eq and compression...If your still not satisfied then your gonna have to get some better preamps...But beware if you are using a computer based program to create your music i.e. FL or reason...then preamps arent gonna help you...I use the PSP Vintage Warmer to fatten up my sounds cuz it gives like a analog vintage sound and acts "kinda" like a Compressor and has a 2 band eq and it really works great...if you wanna hear some things that i have done with it check my myspace then listen to the soundclick link below and listen to Birthday Bash and listen to the orchestral strings on the hook and the leads cuz i wanted them all to be fat sounding...I only use Eq then then compression on my drums and they sit really well always...hope this helps!

[mix-it-well]

Originally Posted by beat you down

forget about 'the right' gear for now...
proper (sparse) arrangements is where it's at indeed!!!

word

[Tibbon]

What are you tracking to? 2"? Protools?

[deuc647]

Originally Posted by Tibbon

I have no problem using the same pre on many things (But if you have choices why not try a few different ones? It would feel wrong for me to only touch the API pres, and never touch the Shadow Hills Industry or the Grace in the rack (I mean it just requires a quick repatch).

I was more against running everything through the same pre, eq, comp, etc. Yea, i know again, most stuff in the past has been tracked through a single console. I just feel that using something like a 610 over an entire record (bass, guitar, drums, vox, keys) would sound like utter shit. Maybe something more neutral would be ok.

Start at the source, even before the arrangement, make sure you have a good sample to start with....... shyt into preamp=> shyt out of preamp.
Tibbon, do you use different pres on everything. I dont see the big advantage, i see it as a disadvantage, because instead of tracking the music and getting on with it, you are constantly trying new pres and patching things in, yeah 1 shytty pre will ruin you record but 1 good pre (api adesign GR) will stack nice overall.

[Tibbon]

Originally Posted by deuc647

Start at the source, even before the arrangement, make sure you have a good sample to start with....... shyt into preamp=> shyt out of preamp.
Tibbon, do you use different pres on everything. I dont see the big advantage, i see it as a disadvantage, because instead of tracking the music and getting on with it, you are constantly trying new pres and patching things in, yeah 1 shytty pre will ruin you record but 1 good pre (api adesign GR) will stack nice overall.

When I'm tracking a band I have options, and I like that. I don't have to constantly try new things because I know the way the things sound. That's what I get paid for when I'm engineering. I know the flavors and can make decisions.

I have been against the use of samples for instruments for quite some time. I don't see any need to use a sample, and I'd rather just record it myself the way I want. If I need strings- just hire a string quartet or larger. If I need brass... the same. Drums? There's a reason the studio has a handful of snares and kits. Guitars? Ditto. Synths? Why in the world would you sample a synth? There's the interesting use of a sample for a specific sound or whatever (sampling the hook from something) but asides from that it's just taking the cheap/easy way out.

Also, some preamps have so much "mojo" that serious if you tracked everything through that preamp it would turn to mud after a while. Different instruments have different needs. Why in would the overheads on my drumkit need the same thing as the bass guitar? That's just stupid thinking there. They are totally different signals with different needs.

I totally think that you can track an album "clean" and then "dirty it up" but why not just get the sound you want the first time? If you know the sound you want, just get it then. If it's taking you that long to use your patchbay, then you have a really poorly set up bay. To check between two preamps doesn't really take much/any time at all. Same for comp/eq. If you need to print stuff to tape even, just patch it in and go.

Better yet, that's what the assistant engineer is for. You don't need to patch it yourself, just tell them what you want.

Engineering is about knowing your shit, and making decisions and making them right the first time so that you can capture the best performance. If you don't know that, then you should stop being an engineer and move on to Starbucks.

I've got an API 3124 in the rack... can you tell me why I should use only that? It seems to be a disservice to your clients if you can only do one thing.

Also, for the love of god, just get better instruments maybe? If you piano sucks on tape... then maybe your piano sucks (or your room, or your piano tuner, etc). Obviously the player matters a ton, but it's assumed that that isn't in your control and you're working with actually talented people.

[cynic]

I don't think you guys have been following dude's other posts. I believe most of his shit is ITB...

So, take this cue to go off about coloration plugins, vintage emulations, etc...

[deuc647]

I feel almost the opposite, i feel like tracking with different pres is like tracking with EQ, once its on, it cant be erased. If say you use a 1073 on guitar and then decide you wanted to go for a cleaner tone, you cant go back and fix, you have to retrack it, cu the 73 has a big bottom, as to if you track with the same pre, you can always add an OB EQ or compression to get the tone you are looking for. Im not trying to a argue or anything, i just like getting people different perspectives on this issue

[carlheinz]

IT'S ALL ALL IN THE SIMPLICITY OF THE PARTS AND THE TIMING RELATIONSHIPS BETWEEN THEM AND THAT RELATIVE TO THE TEMPO.THE CONSOLE OR STRIPS ARE 2NDARY TO THAT.It's an arrangement thing.The more you stack the smaller things can get and you have to carve out more space for those sounds to exist in.

[Tibbon]

Originally Posted by deuc647

I feel almost the opposite, i feel like tracking with different pres is like tracking with EQ, once its on, it cant be erased. If say you use a 1073 on guitar and then decide you wanted to go for a cleaner tone, you cant go back and fix, you have to retrack it, cu the 73 has a big bottom, as to if you track with the same pre, you can always add an OB EQ or compression to get the tone you are looking for. Im not trying to a argue or anything, i just like getting people different perspectives on this issue

Every successful engineer that I have ever talked to, has basically said, "Track it right the first time" and that "Engineering is about making decisions right the first time". Not a single one has said, "Get a rack full of Grace preamps and earthworks QTC50 mics and track everything clean so you can make decisions later". Also a huge portion imho is about making these decisions very quickly.

At Berklee I know they pretty much teach you just that. It's not about "fix it in the mix". It's about doing it right the first time, and being able to crank out stuff in a short period of time. If you can't track some stuff in 3 hours- never move to Nashville.

If you can't make the decision now, what makes you think that you'd make it later correctly? Maybe you're tracking in the wrong order?

Not trying to argue, it just seems to be that the wisdom of the "smaller guys" (not calling you that) is to "fix it later" (which often turns into fixing it never, and complaining about the mix), and the people that are the engineers for every album that's earned a Grammy say, "Do it right the first time, and know your shit"