Best signal path for HipHop vocals?

[B-Muzik]

I want to get the best sound for recording hiphop vocals? So far I am working with the AKG C414 LTD...but if anyone thinks I should get a better mic then that can be arranged...i just want that "in your face" nice rap vocal...Here are some of the styles of music that i am into...Maybe hearing the music that I produce will let you know what I want from a mic...thanks guys...

CLICK THE MYSPACE LINK BELOW

The 1st track is something that I am lookin for that 50 cent vocal on...its called 301 north..

[razorz]

What is your price range? People can suggest $100 mics and people can suggest $8000 mics.

thumbsup

[B-Muzik]

$1000 price range...If i need to buy a U87 then i have to do so but my bro has one and Im not that impressed by the sound...I just want a good mic and preamp to go well together...give me my options as far as price are concerned...like a breakdown...

[wrigley]

Get a Beyer M88 and an AMR VMP-2. That would be nice sounding and easy to use.

[PettyCash]

Who will this mic be used on most often?

It really depends on what works best for the artist. I personally like the AKGC414 for my own vox. For some other guys I have tried it on, I never liked it at all. Try to get some tube in your chain somehow, either through the use of a tube compressor, eq, or even converters that emulate tube saturation.

[PhonoquO]

maybe get a studio projects c1 vers.2 and a groove tubes brick or RNP preamp

[B-Muzik]

yeah the groove tubes brick is a DI box and is prolly not a good choice of a preamp IMO...i think ima stick with the C414 that I have and go with the Avalon vt737...i seems that that preamp is widely used and can really help shape the sound that you need for hiphop vocals...i listened to it at a guitar center but their rooms are designed to sound well regardless of what it is...Ive heard behringer preamps sound good in that store with a MXL mic and both of those are POS gear...so thats hard to decide...You cant go wrong with Avalon pre's IMO....

[B-Muzik]

Ill be using the C414 on my rap vocals because it is the most transparent mic IMO...it is very flat and I got the instrumental version versus the vocal mic becuz the instrumental mic is more flat and then I can eq and round my sound myself instead of having the added airy presence when i dont want it there...So the XLS is the better C414 IMO...i think for vocals you want a flat mic so u can use a pre to shape your sound...well especially for hiphop and Rnb...sometimes you want a transparent sound and then shape it with other processors...I like to have the flexibilty...C414 + API 3124 or....C414 + LA-610...both of those will give u 2 different sounds...

[DivineMusic]

the 414 will work just fine, but who cares about the avalon get a api7600 or a 500 rack..

[octatonic]

Originally Posted by PettyCash

Try to get some tube in your chain somehow, either through the use of a tube compressor, eq, or even converters that emulate tube saturation.

[deuc647]

or send you mic to jim williams to mod for you

[Marogru]

A nice and effective clear channel with warm but not too worm sound, geta ksm 44 and a UA brick, clear , cheap military combo

[Ray Sr.]

The 414 is cool but if you really listen, the mids are kind of scooped out. I don't know about all of the versions but I heard the older 414's don't have that problem & sound really good.

[B-Muzik]

Originally Posted by Ray Sr.

The 414 is cool but if you really listen, the mids are kind of scooped out. I don't know about all of the versions but I heard the older 414's don't have that problem & sound really good.

well the older ones didnt have the same capsules or the transformers that the new ones have...the older ones that were the industry standard were also really great mics its just that the new ones are suppose to the clearer and require less drive...that is what i heard anyway!

[feedback711]

Originally Posted by PettyCash

Who will this mic be used on most often?

It really depends on what works best for the artist. I personally like the AKGC414 for my own vox. For some other guys I have tried it on, I never liked it at all. Try to get some tube in your chain somehow, either through the use of a tube compressor, eq, or even converters that emulate tube saturation.

not always true.
Just cause a circuit is ran through a tube doesnt mean it will do the chain any good. In my opinion Any device under 1500 with a tube in it is just a cheap thrill. And if you do get one over that price you have get good at gainstaging. Finding the sweet spot on a vocal chain with a random tube thrown in the mix , would take forever. and might destroy the intergrety of a prestine vox chain. unless your throwing a sony 800 or peluso in the mix

[Teacher]

Originally Posted by B-Muzik

yeah the groove tubes brick is a DI box and is prolly not a good choice of a preamp IMO...i think ima stick with the C414 that I have and go with the Avalon vt737...i seems that that preamp is widely used and can really help shape the sound that you need for hiphop vocals...i listened to it at a guitar center but their rooms are designed to sound well regardless of what it is...Ive heard behringer preamps sound good in that store with a MXL mic and both of those are POS gear...so thats hard to decide...You cant go wrong with Avalon pre's IMO....

maybe it means you should work on your room treatment before a new mic?

[feedback711]

Originally Posted by Teacher

maybe it means you should work on your room treatment before a new mic?

If you are going to build a house. Start with the foundation

Good cables and treating your room is a awsome way to start.
Mogami cables are best IMO and Properly treating your room can really help you get the most out of a low end setup
Then study. Study good mic placement. Study how to mic sounds, instruments and vox. Then practice. next Learn your daw like a second language. and then buy a mic thats hot and do a million tracks. Practice and learn learn learn.

[FreeToMIX]

Originally Posted by B-Muzik

yeah the groove tubes brick is a DI box and is prolly not a good choice of a preamp IMO...i think ima stick with the C414 that I have and go with the Avalon vt737...i seems that that preamp is widely used and can really help shape the sound that you need for hiphop vocals...i listened to it at a guitar center but their rooms are designed to sound well regardless of what it is...Ive heard behringer preamps sound good in that store with a MXL mic and both of those are POS gear...so thats hard to decide...You cant go wrong with Avalon pre's IMO....

It may just be me but i have a 737 and a u87 and for the life of me i cant get it to have that 50 sound. i really just think it is how well a person knows how to use the gear they have to get the sound they want.. well i have major things working against me like room not treated shitty monitors no d/a convertors interface is shot. all kindz of shiz but hey for what its worth i listined to your muzik page and i think you just need better vocal technique. you want that up close sound then get up close to the mic.. well closer than you are and play with the lower mids cause you really hear that when someone is close to you

cheerz!

[B-Muzik]

Originally Posted by Teacher

maybe it means you should work on your room treatment before a new mic?

Well guitar center engineers have designed those rooms so that everything sounds good...I play bass and they have some Behringer Cabs in there that really sound great in the the store but when u listen them in a church they sound awful...sometimes u cant treat every room you use your equipment in...for me for example my studio is portable...sometimes its in VA sometimes is in Philly and sometimes its not even up...I just got back home for thanksgiving so its back up in my basement but i dont have a room that treated like treated-treated...lol...but i have a great sounding room in my basement that i use to record and its not dead either...

[w_stylz]

The Blue Bottle is one of the best mics that I have heard but it is about $2400-2600 used ($4000 new). I wouldn't use a U87 for a vocal recording unless my client insisted on it or it just complemented the singer's voice perfectly. If you are talking about a 737 then you are already prepared to spend $2000 on your preamp - in which case I say, spend more on the Mic as it is the first link in the chain - converting your words into electrical energy. Get a decent, but not overly expensive preamp with compression and eq built in so that you can experiment with the sound you want. Also, a box like the TC voice prism plus ($450-650 used) can create a lot of the effects that you hear on records with the thick doubling and voice shaping effects - mainly, it can make you sound a little less like yourself which in my opinion, is the first step to making you happier with your sound. It is just a fact that people are so used to their own voices that they always want it to sound a bit different and get inspired when it does - think of the effect (NPI) that a bit of reverb or delay has on a singer's performance. They become less worried about being out of pitch and deliver a more relaxed take 9 times out of 10.

As far as tube mics, a good suggestion would be a peluso 251 ($1200 or so), Audio technica 4060, or even a blue baby bottle ($325 used) if you are on a real budget, I have AB'd it against a U87 and there was far less of a difference between the 2 than you would expect for the price difference. Even more surprising was that I preferred the baby bottle but everybody's ears are slightly different.


As far as a preamp is concerned, Trident makes a good one for $1000 (new) or you can get an Amek (Neve) CIB for about $1300-1500 used these days. If you don't like the way that sounds, try a UA 6176 . Anyway that is my 2 cents and hopefully it is worth more than that!! Feel free to PM me if you have any more questions

[PettyCash]

Originally Posted by feedback711

not always true.
Just cause a circuit is ran through a tube doesnt mean it will do the chain any good. In my opinion Any device under 1500 with a tube in it is just a cheap thrill. And if you do get one over that price you have get good at gainstaging. Finding the sweet spot on a vocal chain with a random tube thrown in the mix , would take forever. and might destroy the intergrety of a prestine vox chain. unless your throwing a sony 800 or peluso in the mix

Well its true fo me.

I was saying this based on my own experiences with the AKG C414 which was the first high end mic besides the U87 that I used for a bit to track my own vox when I first started out.

[PettyCash]

As well, when utilizing tube in a vocal chain, its always best to include it as early in the chain as possible, meaning the use of a tube mic would be best. You just have to take time and money to figure out what pieces of gear can work great for certain situations, which is not easy or cheap, but is worth it if you are looking to create vibes and sounds that can stick out amoungst the rest.

Having what is considered a "pristine" chain is subjective. Doesnt really matter what you are using in the chain, from the time sound leaves your mouth and enters into the microphone it will get degraded along its path to being recorded to hard disk, and along its path to being heard through your monitors, you just cant avoid that.

What matters is whether or not the degradation is worth it for the flavour of sound you are able to achieve with the chain in question. Never be afraid to go against the norm when trying to find what you want, and at the same time dont be lazy to go out of your way and try different things. Most importantly, use your ears, along with proper gain staging throughout the chain to avoid nasty sounding distortion. If you are afraid to experiment because you dont trust what you hear, than something has to be done about your room, setup, or your ears.

You know what I like the most about music engineer in comparison to a lot of other jobs? The fact that you dont have to take anyones word for anything. You can gather facts, thoughts and opinions from whom or where ever and choose to apply them to what you do if they are relevant to what you do. Nothing you do is wrong if you can get great sounding results and are able to prove yourself through the success of a great sounding project.

[grantlandau]

Originally Posted by FreeToMIX

It may just be me but i have a 737 and a u87 and for the life of me i cant get it to have that 50 sound. i really just think it is how well a person knows how to use the gear they have to get the sound they want.. well i have major things working against me like room not treated shitty monitors no d/a convertors interface is shot. all kindz of shiz but hey for what its worth i listined to your muzik page and i think you just need better vocal technique. you want that up close sound then get up close to the mic.. well closer than you are and play with the lower mids cause you really hear that when someone is close to you

cheerz!

I've been to 50's house/studio for a speaker installation. I didn't see his mic (I'll ask my buddy who actually got to engineer for him but I think he's using an 87) but I know for sure he runs into 737 into an HD system. Uses plug-ins for processing. With regards to that '50 sound' You're probably lacking good converters and ... 50 cent himself. Most of the balls in the sound comes from the person saying the words, and he probably has a good vocal sound in the first place.

btw..an important item in his signal chain is actually vitamin water. really important. and for lil' scrappy, its blunts, he is supposedly incapable of working without being high.

and for the record, his house has a shitty electrical system, bah. but he can throw a bitchin party tho.

[feedback711]

Originally Posted by PettyCash

Well its true fo me.

I was saying this based on my own experiences with the AKG C414 which was the first high end mic besides the U87 that I used for a bit to track my own vox when I first started out.

Yeah i am not doubting what your saying yo. Nor am i implying that you dont know what you mean. You have always been real openminded around me and shit. i was just saying that i had some bad turn outs with gear armed with tubes.
The mic thing is right. and tubes are generally good for gritting and coloring the vocal. A mic is a good place to throw a tube in.
But just dont go buy a art tube pre or a presonus tube pre because it has a tube in it. Not for vocals anyway. I am not up on instruments much anymore so those devices may rock out for acoustic items and what not.
But even in our avalon tube pre amp we had to switch the tubes in it right off the bat.
My buddy did the same with there sony 800. only he payed to have the tube swapped in that.
The berringer tube pre was horrible untill he switched the tube and tinkered with the circutry. then it sounded amazing for what he payed to get it modified. but i just dont want this kid to go buy some 100 peice of gear from guitarcenter because it come with a tube in it. hahaha
that would be bad

peace and respect

[PettyCash]

Originally Posted by feedback711

but i just dont want this kid to go buy some 100 peice of gear from guitarcenter because it come with a tube in it. hahaha
that would be bad

peace and respect

Lmao yeah man, I totally agree with you on that. The sales dudes trying to push that stuff onto ppl dont help the situation out much either. I dont call that shit "tube", I call it "toob"! because it definitely doesnt get tube sound down the way it should. When dealing with tube gear, you have to choose what you use carefully. There are a lot of BS products out there trying to reel in consumers who dont know any better, with promises of tube sound, or some sort of crappy sounding saturation.

Then you got to factor in what type of tubes would sound great with what type of gear if you are not feeling what comes stock; and have to keep in mind that tubes should be changed after a certain amount of use, even before they crap out completely on you, to make sure you are always at optimal performance. All this is definitely not for the simple at heart, but is necessary if its the sound you ultimately want to go for.

[amd]

Originally Posted by feedback711

.
But even in our avalon tube pre amp we had to switch the tubes in it right off the bat.

peace and respect

So what kind of tubes did you put in the Avalon? What type of improvement did you get?

[B-Muzik]

well the gear will be copped in the new years and it will be 3124 and a ELOP...i think thats what its called...ima see what that does for me...thanks guys for your advice!

[definate]

the BEST single path in my opinion is u47 > neve 1073 > 1176. but that is pretty pricey hahaa.

I have used this alot and i really like how it sounds. When mixing down I then use plug-ins. (rvox, ssl eq)

But if your budget is 1000 then i would say get an audio technica 4050 and an universal audio solo 610. and yes u can def get both for 1000.