If you were tracking HipHop/RnB what outboard could you not live without

I do RnB/Hip Hop in protools. Because the music is sequenced I am able to live tracking/overdubbing only 2 sounds at a time. Because I record to ptools I'm trying to get my compression and major eq'ing done on the way in to the box. Looking for gear recommendations.

I now have
Manley Stereo PUltec
NTI EQ3
dbx 160xt (one channel about to add another)

In my near futur plans
Neve 1073
API stereo pre (Brent Averill)
API EQ (pair probably 550's)
Distressor(maybe just a single)

Long term plans
GML or Avalon EQ
Tube Tech MP1-A
La2a
1176

What else do you recommend and why? What do you think I don't need? What should I replace with what?

Assuming you could mix a record 2 channels at a time what would you reach for and what pieces would allow the most versatility

[nick]

If I was doing RnB I wouldn't mind having a few SSL G EQ's around. I think that would help me to get some of those 'punchy' bass sounds.

I don't know if you can get them rackmounted though.

Judging by your user name i guess you plan on having a desk full of them in the future

[groundcontrol]

An SSL/Smart stereo comp... or at least a pair of compressors that can do some serious squeazing.

1) Some killer mic's (or just use local rental if possible)

2) A killer vocal booth

The "I want list" looks fine

[Jack the Bear]

You may also want to consider a Massivo, a pair of Trakkers.

Cheers,

Tony Mantz.

[NathanEldred]

A pair of Distressors and a Great River MP-2NV. Hard hitting/agressive coloration on the EL-8, and big thick lows with tons of quiet gain to boost the samples to the proper level and add lots of iron to the tone (on the NV). There's lots more, but that would be the basics.

[nOiz]

rack mounted g series eq? they do make one...it's called g384. dual ch. mic pre and eq. i love mine and use it quite often.

[jon]

The basic ingredient list:

Sony C800G or U47
Neve 1073 + LA2A or CL1B or 1176 for tracking
SSL E/G+ or J/K
Studer A827/A820/A800
a good keyboard collection and some good players
a couple of Technics turntables
a few verbs, echoes and eventides
a big monitor system with good sub response
an excellent engineer

[Wiggy Neve Slut]

The basic ingredient list:

dont forget a few HUGE bags of fat ass BUDS and fingers of steel to keep rolling them fatties 24/7...

the gear, songs and talent comes later!!!!..lol

PEACE
Wiggy

[Wiggy Neve Slut]

OH!!! ...
I forgot an MPC but is this really outboard?

PEACE
Wiggy

Ok Jon why didnt you just type the address of Hit Factory

I'm trying to make ptools better with outboard

I hardly consider an SSL and a studer as outboard LOLrollz

Wiggy I have an MPC and when mixed with SSC it works out pretty well. The only other instrument I may get is an SE-1x or 2

For my initial outlay
I've decided on a pair of 1073's and a pair of API pre's
The mic is gonna be a Lawson tube 47
one Distressor (maybe 2)
1176 or La2a Which do you reccomend????? I can only afford one of the reissues?
I won't have money for the API EQ's unless I sell some of the gear I have now so it seems they are out

Also Ptools plugs
Sony EQ
DUY Bundle (for tape and valve mainly)
Analog Channel

The one good thing about using ptools right now is that the music that I'm doing is using more direct signals and less verb. This is to my benefit since I only have plugin verbs. Also like it or love it more and more records in my genre are being mixed in ptools for budget reasons. So I can be more competetive with the "sound" of the industry in my system right now

Thanks for the help guys. And thanks Jules for giving a "real" alternative to the DUC. (Around there I always felt like I was talking to folk who didnt really work in this industry and had more opinion than skill)

[doug_hti]

Hi no ssl,
I'm interested in the Lawson 47, how do you compare that to a original vintage c-12 and a sony c800g. why did you choose it?

Also, how does the lawson compare to the original 47. As, akg's c12vr seems to be a joke compared to the original.

Also, what is the street price on a lawson 47?

thanks

[jon]

Hi No SSL Yet,

My reply did include some outboard. Yet IMO....outboard isn't generally as necessary in great abundance for rap and R&B like it can be for rock. A good vocal chain and keyboards/turntables does it for tracking. A good SSL room does it for mixing.

With many rap/R&B mixes I see, much of the EQ and compression action happens on the SSL, not on the outboard.

The basic ingredients (which I don't necessarily recommend) that are often used in home-tracked rap I run across are an U87 and an Avalon 737 into Digi 001 or PT Mix with 888/24. Not great, but not tooo bad...typical and mixable.

As long as you have a good vocal chain into PT, you're pretty fine for tracking.

Hi Doug,

The Lawson 47 doesn't have a street price...it is only available direct from Gene Lawson, unless that has changed. Buy it for what it is, not as a substitute for a U47...it doesn't sound like one.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by jon
Hi No SSL Yet,

My reply did include some outboard. Yet IMO....outboard isn't generally as necessary in great abundance for rap and R&B like it can be for rock. A good vocal chain and keyboards/turntables does it for tracking. A good SSL room does it for mixing.

With many rap/R&B mixes I see, much of the EQ and compression action happens on the SSL, not on the outboard.

The basic ingredients (which I don't necessarily recommend) that are often used in home-tracked rap I run across are an U87 and an Avalon 737 into Digi 001 or PT Mix with 888/24. Not great, but not tooo bad...typical and mixable.

As long as you have a good vocal chain into PT, you're pretty fine for tracking.

Hi Doug,

The Lawson 47 doesn't have a street price...it is only available direct from Gene Lawson, unless that has changed. Buy it for what it is, not as a substitute for a U47...it doesn't sound like one.

Hi Jon,

Maybe the quote above works for tracking but not in mixing. I use more outboard(especially effects and EQ's) when mixing R&B, than I use when mixing rock.

I do agree that getting great vocal tracks is crucial.

[C.Lambrechts]

Originally posted by jon
The basic ingredient list:
a big monitor system with good sub response
an excellent engineer

these 2 needed to be repeated imho.

[jon]

Thrill,

Hmm...I'd generally almost agree with you about FX. Though no matter the genre, it seems there are some tracks/acts that use more FX than others. For instance, there are way more FX on Limp Bizkit's last album than on Nelly's Nellyville.

However, I find I need more outboard compression for rock (with all the drum tracks involved) than for rap. The J channel compressors kick it pretty well for rap and I could live without lots of outboard comps.

Jon

[thethrillfactor]

For vocals,backgrounds and all of the synths sounds in RnB, more effects are required(I guess for me that is). I think for the drums, sometimes the SSL comps/EQ's are enough, sometimes not. I think the poster said he wants to do it all in the box(production and mixing I think). I don't get to track alot of the Rnb projects i mix in PT, so I guess i am kinda biased.

I think the style that i use the most gear on(mixing) is the british/alt pop/rock stuff(like Bjork,Seal,Sarah mclaughlin, Tori Amos etc), where the sound is a combination of synths and live instruments. It is by far the most challenging, but at the same time the most fun.

[jon]

Originally posted by thethrillfactor
For vocals,backgrounds and all of the synths sounds in RnB

I agree, those require lots of attention.

[Drumsound]

I find the Manley VoxBox quite useful for Hip-Hop vocals. I usually use a U87, but certain rappers sound better with other mics.

That's just me, and I only do a bit of Hip-Hop. I'm mostly a rock guy. I may be getting it all wrong.
rollz

So would the pieces I'm adding amount to overkill for what I'm doing

Would I be safe with my TLM 103 and an avalon 737 (It is true most of my tracks are synth channels with maybe a few live tracks so I don't need an assortment of pre's at once)

I've decided that hit records sell records and not perfect sonics. I think I'm gonna continue converting through my TC Finalizer plus and add some mix farms instead of moving to HD.

The system I have now with more DSP will suffice to better my skills. (I sometimes like having to work harder and learning from the processes involved)

Still I may get a 1073 and a fine comp down the line. And I like the sound of drums through APIs line inputs. But I guess I could save and use alot of analog channel AC1

I'm beginning to think I'd enjoy the lease of a new Hummer H2 a bit more than some HD cards. (Hope I'm not kicked out of the club)

[jon]

Hit records sound like hit records (and are promoted enough to be hit records, but that's another story).

Aside from mic choice, which depends on the voice you're recording, you might want to look at a better converter and clock than the finalizer.

To be safe, you'll need several mics, pres and comps for the different people you're tracking. A C800G with the right pre, or a U47/67 with a 1073, through a CL1B or LA2A or 1176 is pretty nice.

Then again, if you're mixing all with plug-ins in Mix or 001 (I can't speak for HD yet), an excellent front end won't solve all your problems. The sound will be compromised by the weakest link in the chain, which right now seems to be the finalizer and the plug-ins, among other things.

My recommendation would be to have a couple of high-quality, versatile vocal tracking chains as well as excellent clock and converters for getting your sounds into PT as best as possible. Then, go get a mix engineer and an SSL room for the mix.

[MIKEHARRIS]

a pair of Tannoy System 1200's & a Bryston 4B...and call them nearfields...a pair of Mackie SR1530's for programming

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by jon
Hit records sound like hit records (and are promoted enough to be hit records, but that's another story).

Aside from mic choice, which depends on the voice you're recording, you might want to look at a better converter and clock than the finalizer.

To be safe, you'll need several mics, pres and comps for the different people you're tracking. A C800G with the right pre, or a U47/67 with a 1073, through a CL1B or LA2A or 1176 is pretty nice.

Then again, if you're mixing all with plug-ins in Mix or 001 (I can't speak for HD yet), an excellent front end won't solve all your problems. The sound will be compromised by the weakest link in the chain, which right now seems to be the finalizer and the plug-ins, among other things.

My recommendation would be to have a couple of high-quality, versatile vocal tracking chains as well as excellent clock and converters for getting your sounds into PT as best as possible. Then, go get a mix engineer and an SSL room for the mix.

Great advice Jon!!!

To bad more people who produce their own stuff won't do it. It shows the state of music production today, people are more concerned about the "bang for the buck" than their own quality.tut

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by no ssl yet
Still I may get a 1073 and a fine comp down the line. And I like the sound of drums through APIs line inputs. But I guess I could save and use alot of analog channel AC1

I'm beginning to think I'd enjoy the lease of a new Hummer H2 a bit more than some HD cards. (Hope I'm not kicked out of the club)

While I love the 1073, maybe something with a more versatile EQ is in order. That way you can use it on seperate instruments in your mix. I would suggest the Amek CIB, a great Pre, super EQ, and usable comp. It is great on vocals one of my favorites. The EQ is also my favorite when mixing bass. It is also cheaper than the 1073, so you can save some dough and buy an Aardvark 2 or something similar.

OK so I cant "Get Over"

I figured as much. I'm just trying to save dough by buying the right pieces to get the job done.

The best bet for my converter/clock money seems to be a CRane Song HEDD

And on the other end I need to get outboard combinations that will allow me the most versatility when tracking to protools. I guess I was just dreaming above because I really dont think plugins are the answer. I may take Jon's advice and go to an SSL room or I will have to track it "right" (Meaning eq'd and compressed) on the way into the box.


So how about a

Crane Song HEdd or something cheaper like a Rosetta
Distressor
1176
Pair of API EQ's
1272
and an API Pre

I could buy less mix farms since I plan to record it right into the box.
I know it will be a bitchh of a way to work but each time I want something re-eq'd I can simply rerecord. I used to think I needed 2 of most processors for stereo tracks but it seems lately I track in mono and mult the track and create my own stereo using delay or something anyway.

I guess I need to know the smallest starter tool kit I can get and keep things truely improving. Hanging out with Charles Dye had me thinking about the all plugin way, but I honestly remember getting my best mixes on an old neve console. So I guess I've been ignoring the truth

Jon I'd love to be able to pay Dave Pensado. I know his work and appreciate it. But, I'm doing indi projects and "bang for the buck" is truly where things are for me at this point. The lower I can keep the expenditures the better the bottom line. (Sometimes profit has to come before the holygrail of recording even for someone who knows the difference and would prefer better)

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by no ssl yet
OK so I cant "Get Over"

I figured as much. I'm just trying to save dough by buying the right pieces to get the job done.

The best bet for my converter/clock money seems to be a CRane Song HEDD

And on the other end I need to get outboard combinations that will allow me the most versatility when tracking to protools. I guess I was just dreaming above because I really dont think plugins are the answer. I may take Jon's advice and go to an SSL room or I will have to track it "right" (Meaning eq'd and compressed) on the way into the box.


So how about a

Crane Song HEdd or something cheaper like a Rosetta
Distressor
1176
Pair of API EQ's
1272
and an API Pre

I could buy less mix farms since I plan to record it right into the box.
I know it will be a bitchh of a way to work but each time I want something re-eq'd I can simply rerecord. I used to think I needed 2 of most processors for stereo tracks but it seems lately I track in mono and mult the track and create my own stereo using delay or something anyway.

I guess I need to know the smallest starter tool kit I can get and keep things truely improving. Hanging out with Charles Dye had me thinking about the all plugin way, but I honestly remember getting my best mixes on an old neve console. So I guess I've been ignoring the truth

Jon I'd love to be able to pay Dave Pensado. I know his work and appreciate it. But, I'm doing indi projects and "bang for the buck" is truly where things are for me at this point. The lower I can keep the expenditures the better the bottom line. (Sometimes profit has to come before the holygrail of recording even for someone who knows the difference and would prefer better)

If working in Mixplus I would replace the Hedd 192 with the Apogee AD16(more inputs at the same time and excellent conversion with a nice clock for your PT system)especially if you want to track eight outputs out of the MPC2000. AES into to (2)888/16(24bit digital ins around $600). The HEDD is great(I own one) but for starter kit you may need a little bit more flexibility(even though the DA is a plus). You can always get the Tape emulation plug if you need it. Street price HEDD 192 maybe $2700-$2800? Apogee AD16 street price maybe $2200-$2500.

The API Eq's while cool are not that versatile. I would seriously look at the Amek CIB(pre,EQ,and comp all in one). Two CIB's maybe a little out of your budget(too bad!!!)I like the Distressor idea(for kicks and snares).

I would replace the 1176 with a used Tubetech CL1B(for vocals, bass and anything else you need some nice "glowy"compression). The street price is about the same for both.

The 1272 an Api pre will serve you well.

[jon]

I'll second thrill on the 1272 and CL1B and Apogee (afraid I haven't tried the Amek).

As an aside, many old clients from my smaller studio days were indie rap/R&B producers. They went to places like my former $400-$600 a day studio and would record the vocals at night with my assistant and I would mix the track the following day. 24 hours = one track done. Two weeks = an album done. These guys would spend $10k and have an album. They'd sell 10,000 to 20,000 units and make money after the first 3,000.

Nowadays, they track the vocals at home into PT systems I set up for them and come to our SSL room for the mix. Or, they do both the vocals and the mix in the SSL room once the bigger advances start arriving. They're spending a little more money, but their album now sounds top-tier, has major distribution and sells several times more. They're moving up and making more money. Step by step.

You don't necessarily have to hire Dave Pensado or another 'name'. I recently did test mixes for a band that beat out some names you all know -- and got the job. I am sure some guys on this forum like e-cue and thrill and volodia (just to name a few) and many others would do as good of a job for R&B as Dave P. and might cut you a friendly deal. When it's time to make a record, relationships matter more than mic pres and that is where the real bang for the buck is.

Good luck!

MAN if I haven't said it thanks for the advice.

thrill you bring a good point up I would do better with the AD16 since I have an adat bridge already. I will have to use the finalizer's DA until I get something better.

I never used the Tubetech comps, but I have used their pre and loved it.

Jon,
I know there are others who can do as good a job as Dave. I learned some of my most used engineering tricks talking to Dave and reading his write ups. So, he is mainly a personal favorite.

My goal as an indi is to do 60k per project. I did 30k units back in 91 of my first release, but I quit recording to finish a marketing degree.. Now my goal is to get it cranking again.

I've heard some good things come out of Mix systems. They honestly never sound as good as GOOD SSL mixes. Notice I said good SSL mixes. But for the money I've heard some come pretty close after mastering.

My goal for now is to compete with decent quality and progress as my budget grows

Jon you are right about the relationship issue. Relationships are the most valuable tool in life bar none

[groundcontrol]

Originally posted by no ssl yet
I'm beginning to think I'd enjoy the lease of a new Hummer H2 a bit more than some HD cards.

That might well bring in more gigs if you show up (or is that off...) regularly at the clubz with it...