Am I the only one who thinks rap and production was better back when.

[khameln]

Originally Posted by no ssl yet

It's not the quality of his stuff that sounds different, it's because he keeps trying to make it louder

If you judge by records after mastering, smashing records to shit caught on about the same time as working itb. It's difficult to say ITB is making it sound worse.

LOL We are comparing one smashed bucket of shit to a bucket of smashed shit.

In the end does the difference matter?

No, it's the the quality I'm talking about. If you've been listening to a lot of the Dre tracks that have dropped in the last couple years, the sonic quality is different than some of the others made relatively recently. Some of my favorite tracks are the ones on the Big Bang... They have a lot of vibe, color, character, warmth. That album is loud as hell. I've heard a number of tracks that were equally or less squashed, but just didn't have that kind of feel to them.

Now, if you think you can get a beat that sounds like Cocaina totally ITB, then maybe it's just your time to take over the industry from your computer keyboard :D But to me, the tracks like that carry the sound of hardware.

[Joseph Reeves]

Originally Posted by khameln

We've been through this before... There is nothing wrong with the music.. It's the audience that decided they want to hear club music, and that's what the major market is giving them. The musical producers are still there, they are still making music, and if you have your own set of ears, you can easily find a lot of great hip-hop.

Things commercialize. It happens. Commercialization is a fact of life but it doesn't mean the noncommercial ceases to exist. It means you just won't find it at McDonalds.

Hip-hop is fine... The mainstream taste changed. But you don't have to listen to what they listen to. Choose your own adventure.

If *anything* in history is cyclical, it's music. If you don't like it, just wait a minute.

Look at movies... There was a time when you just took Arnold Swarzenegger and just wrote the same old 'blockbuster' plot with the same actors and the same music etc, and it made millions. Then people go sick of it, and now for all the movies that suck, there are a lot of good ones that try new things. There's something for everybody... If you don't like Spiderman 3, that's cool because you can go see the Last King of Scotland or V for Vendetta or 'Sicko' or some quirky multimilliondollar 3d animated flick, or whatever suits your tastes... Now Rocky and The Rock and all that are just a small piece of a bigger picture again. Disney made a buttload of cheesy carbon copy animated flicks until Pixar and Dreamworks shut them down by doing something with creativity and attitude, and audiences responded.

Anyway, whatever, complain complain. I'm just gonna contribute and do something about it.

I agree. To the people saying rappers are worse today, and were better in the 80s.... Have they really gotten worse, or have you just gotten so old, that you're unable to relate to any current rappers out today?

[khameln]

Originally Posted by PettyCash

Correction, he starts off his beats with samples, and then tries to get as much of the samples as he can replayed live and recorded. If he cannot recreate a sample by any means, then he will opt for just taking the sample as is and getting it cleared, which is a good approach a lot of the smarter sample based producers are using today to avoid dishing out cash for sample clearance.

Notice I said from vinyl OR from live... When you are tracking live instruments through pres/comps, or getting your sound from a record that was recorded from live musicians through hardware or mixed with hardware, of course you can MIX it ITB. The sound is already there!

But if you are mainly composing your own stuff and using synths and romplers and whatnot, that's a totally different ballgame. You need something to breathe some life into your stuff or it ends up being sterile/harsh.

That means it either needs to be tracked through something OTB, or mixed with the help of something OTB... But you don't just load up a bunch of softsynths and rewire it to Protools with plugins and end up with a track that sounds like Takeover or The Ruler's Back or even something synthy like Dirt off ya Shoulder. And in the case of Just Blaze specifically, the *record* or the live musicians and the gear they tracked through are providing him with a sound. Thus there is a major OTB component already, no matter how you mix the beat.

My point is no matter what, there is some major OTB component going into the sound of those beats. Whether it's in recording, tracking, mixing, or sampling something that's been recorded/tracked/mixed, it is *there* and it's crucial to the sound.

However, if you want to make Lip Gloss, be my guest and produce/track/mix entirely ITB. No one is going to care for that style of track...

[PettyCash]

Originally Posted by khameln

No, it's the the quality I'm talking about. If you've been listening to a lot of the Dre tracks that have dropped in the last couple years, the sonic quality is different than some of the others made relatively recently. Some of my favorite tracks are the ones on the Big Bang... They have a lot of vibe, color, character, warmth. That album is loud as hell. I've heard a number of tracks that were equally or less squashed, but just didn't have that kind of feel to them.

Now, if you think you can get a beat that sounds like Cocaina totally ITB, then maybe it's just your time to take over the industry from your computer keyboard :D But to me, the tracks like that carry the sound of hardware.

you are probably right about that track, Dr. Dre most likely took the tracks from Pro Tools aftering tinkering around with the sounds and ran it through his SSL 8000 to finish things off.

Cant forget about Goldmine too man, that one was also sounding heavy. Overall im gonna have to say it, but my favourite track on there was "You Cant Hold The Torch", just hearing Q-Tip and Busta together on the track, reminded me of the good old music from way back. Plus it basically talks and is directed towards the "wack MCs" coming up claiming to be bigging up the game when they really aren't. Thats what true hip hop ppl do, when they have a problem with something thats going on in this world, they express their views of these things over a beat and make it hit.

Originally Posted by Joseph Reeves

I agree. To the people saying rappers are worse today, and were better in the 80s.... Have they really gotten worse, or have you just gotten so old, that you're unable to relate to any current rappers out today?

It goes deeper than age. I know a bunch of rappers who are on majors personally and some of them KNOW they are not great rappers and they've always known it (though they wouldn't publicly say it).

I know some others who have skills but don't feel challenged by the other guys out there

Originally Posted by khameln

No, it's the the quality I'm talking about. If you've been listening to a lot of the Dre tracks that have dropped in the last couple years, the sonic quality is different than some of the others made relatively recently. Some of my favorite tracks are the ones on the Big Bang... They have a lot of vibe, color, character, warmth. That album is loud as hell. I've heard a number of tracks that were equally or less squashed, but just didn't have that kind of feel to them.

Now, if you think you can get a beat that sounds like Cocaina totally ITB, then maybe it's just your time to take over the industry from your computer keyboard :D But to me, the tracks like that carry the sound of hardware.

What exactly is the sound of hardware? Which hardware?

I think it's pointless to say you'd track the record well. Why would working itb change that? I'd track a certain way no matter what I was tracking to.

[riecespieces]

Originally Posted by DROPKICK

For all of these producers talking about how production sucks now, how about your own productions do they suck! To me if you say music sucks now and you make music your also saying that your music sucks as well!

I read this entire post and was about to say that exact same thing... We all obviously suck lol

[PettyCash]

Originally Posted by khameln

Notice I said from vinyl OR from live... When you are tracking live instruments through pres/comps, or getting your sound from a record that was recorded from live musicians through hardware or mixed with hardware, of course you can MIX it ITB. The sound is already there!

The point is that it still has been proven possible to get the same desirable mix ITB with those recorded or Vinyl instruments, that you could OTB with those same recorded or Vinyl instruments. Thats the same point you manage to keep missing.

Originally Posted by khameln

But if you are mainly composing your own stuff and using synths and romplers and whatnot, that's a totally different ballgame. You need something to breathe some life into your stuff or it ends up being sterile/harsh.

Thats one of the many reasons we have samplers. To use live pre recorded sounds that we either cant play originally but can play using a keyboard, or sounds that we just dont seem to have the resources to.
Who here said that they use nothing but pure synths anyway.

Originally Posted by khameln

That means it either needs to be tracked through something OTB, or mixed with the help of something OTB... But you don't just load up a bunch of softsynths and rewire it to Protools with plugins and end up with a track that sounds like Takeover or The Ruler's Back or even something synthy like Dirt off ya Shoulder.

Again, who on this thread mentioned anything about loading up and using a bunch of softsynth? Show me the quote? Please dont wonder off topic and bring up things that no one even mentioned. I know what you are trying to say, but saying that is irrelevant to what we are discussing. I doubt anyone pro in the game does that, and hopefully ppl on here dont do that either unless the electronic sound is what they are going for, which is fine.

Originally Posted by khameln

My point is no matter what, there is some major OTB component going into the sound of those beats. Whether it's in recording, tracking, mixing, or sampling something that's been recorded/tracked/mixed, it is *there* and it's crucial to the sound.

Thats a good and valid point if you are refering to the modules and keyboards used in the production, which still pretty much need to be tweaked from the ground up if you want to sound as good and as unique as someone like Dre who happens to tweak a lot of instruments beyond original recognition.... So no you do not get the sound you want right away if you are a guy like him, or just about any great producer out there thats always trying to make things better. Thats such a poposturous thing to think, so much so that I had to break out the word "poposturous". But that has little to do with what I was originally talking about.

I was refering to mixing ITB to mixing OTB; same source of sounds, recorded, vinyl, watever.... If you are an experienced PRO, that is use to mixing a track on a SSL, can you skip the SSL and still achieve the same desired results that you need.... The answer has been proven by more than one source, in more than one genre as being a yes.


What you believe is perfectly fine, and your points are acceptable to a certain point, but they still dont invalidate that one point right there.

[sethdk]

Originally Posted by DROPKICK

For all of these producers talking about how production sucks now, how about your own productions do they suck! To me if you say music sucks now and you make music your also saying that your music sucks as well!

Great question. I see none of the gatekeepers answered

Originally Posted by sethdk

Great question. I see none of the gatekeepers answered

Who are the gate keepers?

[Justice]

Booooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

I thought this site was for people about improving the quality of production.

Saying that the ITB solutions is the new phase is like saying no one needs consoles anymore.

O wait they just sold out Sony studio's, and the hit factory in NYC.

damn yall win!

Long live bathroom studios!

I give up!

[Apex]

Originally Posted by Justice

Booooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

I thought this site was for people about improving the quality of production.

Saying that the ITB solutions is the new phase is like saying no one needs consoles anymore.

O wait they just sold out Sony studio's, and the hit factory in NYC.

damn yall win!

Long live bathroom studios!

I give up!

I don't see where anything like that is being said.

I'll be the first to say my music more than likely sucks...to someone...
Thats why this thread started...no ssl yet is disappointed with todays production compared to back in the day, whether it be techniques, passion, skills, or lack thereof, he feels its changed to some degree, which is his position, and he asked if anyone else felt the same way. I feel the same way, but production as whole(if thats not what he meant)I think shit is so corny, shitty cheesy fake phony redundant crap, BUT a lot of it does get the club packed(sadly)BUT those productions are geared toward the club goer, so you have to keep that in mind. what upsets me the most is how many independent cds i've picked up to support they're cause, as well as mine(karma)only to be blown away with the crap thats on there. I don't want to offend ANYONE on this site because I don't know whos who, BUT I picked up a cd and had a song ABC 123...with a guest artist on it...tell me WHY the track had 2 people say the abc's and then one of them count to 100...to a beat...


thats what "rappers" are recording these days, once I get my network back up on my computer, i'll post it if its allowable. but its a sad day when I hear SHIT like that.

[EKG Productions]

Hello all. This whole question of ITB vs OTB has been hashed and re hashed all over this board. If anyone thinks to be considered a pros, one must mix all OTB to get the best sound you obviously have not read the Q&A section of GS. In this section you will read multi-platinum engineers and producers who use ITB or OTB or a combo to make beautiful records. So why must we continue this dead issue. Rap and Hip Hop is just different now. Its not better or worse just different. One of the most beautiful productions I have ever from a production stand point came out this year with take over by danja. I don't remember anything from the 80's or 90's that musical. But hey I'm only one man what do I know.

[KevWest]

Originally Posted by Justice

I respect that but street kids hustle. I hustled to get my gear. If a n**** get a hot sound and it comes from whatever, great.

But ballers ball!!!!!

Even street kids want to ball!

A PC is practical but it anit ballin. Can you do the same work?? Maybe, maybe not..

But the classic production centers have been proven themselves for years and continue to be on the top selling records in the industry.

So just like those new $150 Nikes street kids cant afford but still find the money for. Hardware is always the end goal for any REAL producer... street or suburban

But I do feel where your coming from.

lol @ hardware being the goal of any real producer. i know real dope producers who have sold all of their hardware for software. its all preference. thats like saying only real producers use mpcs so if u use a mv, a sp, eps, w30, or asr ur not a real producer then too right. Not to be arguemenative but thats foolish imo. Besides that in todays economy all in one is better to everyone. I personally like dedication of a unit myself and I do really like hardware but thats not going to work for everyone. Also lets not forget the kids that think "why buy a mpc when i can download fruity loops for free and make hits 9th wonder did it."

[KevWest]

Originally Posted by no ssl yet

Wanna know the problem with music?

When was the last time an independent dude gave you a CD that was even close to remotely any near good?

I can remember an era in New Orleans when there were several indi cats out who could spit.

Now when I get a CD from dudes on the street, it goes straight out the window if I don't like it. There's not many of them that I actually like.

And I'm not talking about preference. I'm not saying they just don't appeal to me. I'm saying they are TERRIBLE.

a few months ago actually I got a cd from a decent rapper. I actually meet good rappers regularly. I have had my horror stories tho but I get it more with singers.

Originally Posted by xabiton

a few months ago actually I got a cd from a decent rapper. I actually meet good rappers regularly. I have had my horror stories tho but I get it more with singers.

Man I feel you. I've been given some gospel CDs LORD. You wanna give them a shot for believing in God and all but man.

[KevWest]

Originally Posted by khameln

Well hmm...

As far as Dre, honestly a lot of his stuff doesn't sound as good as it used to... And the stuff that does, like Busta Rhymes' stuff, has a fair amount of OTB processing going on (listen to Cocainia and tell me that's all plugins :D)

Just Blaze makes sampled beats... When 90% of your beat is coming from OTB and Vinyl, or from a live orchestra and whatnot, it's a lot easier to say you make beats ITB. But if you're more into building stuff from scratch, you really need something to give you more of a sound or you will spend hours wasting your time trying to get plugins to recreate what you could get with some good pres/comp.

Once you've tracked something with the right outboard, it's a lot easier to mix it ITB.

I think the best of both words is a balance between the two.

agreed

Originally Posted by no ssl yet

YouTube - The Grand Finale - The D.O.C. (ft. Eazy-E & N.W.A.)

Tripping off the man with the swift hand movement. Proving if you're groving then it's cool when he be doing it.

The best verse got cut off. (Well outside of Cube.)

everything was better back in the day. Jazz, Gospel, R&B, Classical. the world has been coming to an end since day 1. i think in our time corporations have messed things up.

[Ace'Lo]

Originally Posted by no ssl yet

Wanna know the problem with music?

When was the last time an independent dude gave you a CD that was even close to remotely any near good?

I can remember an era in New Orleans when there were several indi cats out who could spit.

Now when I get a CD from dudes on the street, it goes straight out the window if I don't like it. There's not many of them that I actually like.

And I'm not talking about preference. I'm not saying they just don't appeal to me. I'm saying they are TERRIBLE.

U aint like No SSL bruh. Back in da day if u went 2 Peaches with $50.00, u was gonna spead the whole 50 on music and go back home to get more money..

[Ace'Lo]

Originally Posted by no ssl yet

Wanna know the problem with music?

When was the last time an independent dude gave you a CD that was even close to remotely any near good?

I can remember an era in New Orleans when there were several indi cats out who could spit.

Now when I get a CD from dudes on the street, it goes straight out the window if I don't like it. There's not many of them that I actually like.

And I'm not talking about preference. I'm not saying they just don't appeal to me. I'm saying they are TERRIBLE.

U aint like No SSL bruh. Back in da day if u went 2 Peaches with $50.00, u was gonna spead the whole 50 on music and go back home to get more money..

[KevWest]

Originally Posted by no ssl yet

Man I feel you. I've been given some gospel CDs LORD. You wanna give them a shot for believing in God and all but man.

good music is good music i dont care so much about genre. if that was the case id never make hip hop i started out wanting to do pop and rnb but enjoyed hip hop all the same

[PettyCash]

Originally Posted by no ssl yet

Man I feel you. I've been given some gospel CDs LORD. You wanna give them a shot for believing in God and all but man.

stike ........tutt lol

Originally Posted by xabiton

good music is good music i dont care so much about genre. if that was the case id never make hip hop i started out wanting to do pop and rnb but enjoyed hip hop all the same

I like all music too. I'm just saying I give the gospel dudes more of a chance because I assume it's gonna be spiritual music. But if it aint good, it still goes out the window.


(Hope I'm not going to hell for that one.)

[deuc647]

Originally Posted by Joseph Reeves

I agree. To the people saying rappers are worse today, and were better in the 80s.... Have they really gotten worse, or have you just gotten so old, that you're unable to relate to any current rappers out today?

I guess im old cuz i cant keep up with this "snap" music.

[KevWest]

Originally Posted by no ssl yet

(Hope I'm not going to hell for that one.)

lmao. i think that might get u hand delivered j/k