MPC 3000 vs. MPC 4000

[Checkmate Muzik]

how usefull is the 24bit/96khz feature in the mpc4k? if you were recoding yourself playing different patches from keyboards/synths to comopose a beat. would you use 24bit or 16?

i just got a mv88 and i wonder how much sound different exist if you recording at 16 vs 24 if your sound source is coming from the synths (not samples)..

[Lipps]

Originally Posted by Checkmate Muzik

how usefull is the 24bit/96khz feature in the mpc4k? if you were recoding yourself playing different patches from keyboards/synths to comopose a beat. would you use 24bit or 16?

i just got a mv88 and i wonder how much sound different exist if you recording at 16 vs 24 if your sound source is coming from the synths (not samples)..

If it's strings and horns and pianos, 24/96. Drums, bass, synths 16/44

[babyface_finsta]

What does that mean? I'm not sure I follow your logic...

Originally Posted by Lipps

If it's strings and horns and pianos, 24/96. Drums, bass, synths 16/44

[gmixstudios]

Originally Posted by khameln

Yup... It's not quite the same. Peff's already done the test when he was trying to produce templates, and he had to do them via audio because they never came out correctly using MIDI data. The irregularity of the MPC timing doesn't get reproduced through the midi clock, it is truly an actual irregularity of the MPC clock's timing itself that does not get transmitted in the MIDI messages.

There has been rehashed multiple times. No need for Mythbusters, just use Google or search :D

thats good to know i dont have a lot of cash so i have mpc and cubase with plug ins

if I use midi out on mpc to midi in on plug in via cubase and instead of hitting record on cubase to record the midi part I play the mpc seq that i have pre done and record the audio of the plug in from the DAW back into the daw will that capture the true feel?

[terrytee]

the 4000 has a much higher ppq so the feel of the swing is very different. My self i prefer the 3000 it has a very strong feel, ok less exact but it makes for a more ridged feel IMO.

[fooloof]

Originally Posted by AON

So you´re saying you lose the MPC´s feel/timing when sequencing for example external synths?
I don´t agree...
Somebody should call Mythbusters

I think the timing is consistent for the 3K, no matter how it is being used. I use the 3K as my hub. I obviously use it for all my drums, as well as my sequencer for all my synths, including soft synths. The 3K has 4 MIDI ports, which you can control from the main screen. This allows the user to choose and control up to 4 different synths, modules, or software applications at the same time. And all sequences has the swing, as far as I can tell.

[gmixstudios]

Originally Posted by fooloof

I think the timing is consistent for the 3K, no matter how it is being used. I use the 3K as my hub. I obviously use it for all my drums, as well as my sequencer for all my synths, including soft synths. The 3K has 4 MIDI ports, which you can control from the main screen. This allows the user to choose and control up to 4 different synths, modules, or software applications at the same time. And all sequences has the swing, as far as I can tell.

more than four actually cos you can daisy chain midi so for example midi out a has 1-16 midi channels so 1 can be ensoniq channel 2 could be s950 etc just on 1 midi out

[viewing]

i just found out that my e-mu command station has the same ppq as the mpc!(96 parts per quarter note).

[IM WHO YOU THINK]

Originally Posted by terrytee

the 4000 has a much higher ppq so the feel of the swing is very different. My self i prefer the 3000 it has a very strong feel, ok less exact but it makes for a more ridged feel IMO.

4k can be set to 96 ppq

[Rapslow]

i have a 4k and a s3200 which probably sounds like mpc3000
i like the sound of both
s3200 has more old school vibe and more punchy sound and probably bigger bass and better filter.
4k sounds big and clean and maybe a little compression?
but im not using the s3200 much because working on 4k is much easier & faster.
hope that helps a little
peace!

[terrytee]

Originally Posted by IM WHO YOU THINK

4k can be set to 96 ppq

i never knew that, if i get on hands on 1 again i will defiantly try it out.

[u b k]

Call me nuts... anytime I'm used to a magic piece of gear --- usually an old one at that --- some corporation tries to sell me a new improved model that does it all and then some.

It NEVER works out like that, not on 1176's, not on u87's, not on Gretsch drums, not on Fender Basses, not on anything. My experience in this game is that any piece of kit that has a serious and dedicated following and a deep rep for 'magic'... there's something to the hype, there's truth in the legends.

Maybe the 3k/4k thing would surprise me, maybe the new improved model has all the magic. I ain't holding my breath.


Gregory Scott - ubk
.

[inthere]

You by the 3000 for the feel......the swing timing. Instead of getting the 4000, get a good DAW and load MPC groove templates, same result.

[carlheinz]

This talk of MPC magic swing is kinda arbitrary.There can be swing if you have a few milliseconds of dead space in front of your kick and snare sample.Unless you are talking about what used to be called shuffle on the linn drum....there is no swing in these machines unless its midi lag from say the rack unit processing the midi stream itself.One has to consider 80's midi is a bit slow on the midi receiving end of any retro synth.My MPC 60 had a very stiff feel.Connected via midi to an oscar synh bass or a ppg midi input was anything but tight and would have some lag.Any"feel" from the MPC had to be totally contrived.The Linn 9000 on the other hand is messed up in a good way.It lags behind in all departments and gives" feel"wether you want it or not.

The quetion is do you want to be stuck with whatever timing the machines dictate or go with the most modern setup that allows one to tweek the feel at your will.

[IM WHO YOU THINK]

Originally Posted by carlheinz

This talk of MPC magic swing is kinda arbitrary.There can be swing if you have a few milliseconds of dead space in front of your kick and snare sample.Unless you are talking about what used to be called shuffle on the linn drum....there is no swing in these machines unless its midi lag from say the rack unit processing the midi stream itself.One has to consider 80's midi is a bit slow on the midi receiving end of any retro synth.My MPC 60 had a very stiff feel.Connected via midi to an oscar synh bass or a ppg midi input was anything but tight and would have some lag.Any"feel" from the MPC had to be totally contrived.The Linn 9000 on the other hand is messed up in a good way.It lags behind in all departments and gives" feel"wether you want it or not.

The quetion is do you want to be stuck with whatever timing the machines dictate or go with the most modern setup that allows one to tweek the feel at your will.

Honestly (And I never say this publicly because it won't make sense to most people) The 3k's swing isn't totally in its sequencer. It's a combination of the sequencer and the way things sound coming out of it. It has a "groove" of its own that is partly because of the way the converters sound. It's hard to explain (and may just be a myth in my head) but it reminds me of how sounds interact on a real 808 in comparison to using samples. It would seem using samples would be the same since drums are short hits. But it sounds different coming straight off the 808 even if u add midi to it and control it with another sequencer. I think that is kinda what people hold in high regard with 3k's. I personally like the fact that my 4k has a higher resolution. I can put stuff in without quantize and move it around in smaller increments till I build the groove I want at that moment. That makes it a more powerful tool IMO.

[viewing]

Originally Posted by IM WHO YOU THINK

Honestly (And I never say this publicly because it won't make sense to most people) The 3k's swing isn't totally in its sequencer. It's a combination of the sequencer and the way things sound coming out of it. It has a "groove" of its own that is partly because of the way the converters sound. It's hard to explain (and may just be a myth in my head) but it reminds me of how sounds interact on a real 808 in comparison to using samples. It would seem using samples would be the same since drums are short hits. But it sounds different coming straight off the 808 even if u add midi to it and control it with another sequencer. I think that is kinda what people hold in high regard with 3k's. I personally like the fact that my 4k has a higher resolution. I can put stuff in without quantize and move it around in smaller increments till I build the groove I want at that moment. That makes it a more powerful tool IMO.

I've been thinking about this for a minute and I agree with you. In my estimation the actual feel of a sampler/sequencer is it's sound which is especially significant with drums. A sampled drum sound already has it's own timing programmed into it. After all it was taken 'mid-groove' off the record or whatever. Now each machine has a different sound and this is crucial because the timing of the drum sound changes too. Like the exact location of the 'umph' in each sound changes when the sound is changed. As for the sequencing, the feel on most external sequencers made in those days or any machine with 96ppq would probably be mostly the same with inherent irregularities in each. Add to that a certain machine's unique sound and boom, there's your feel. I think swing settings were rarely used in hip-hop back then anyway it was mostly straight ahead trial and error real-time programming so maybe people are talking about 'swing this swing that' just because the machine had the extra swing feature implemented. Just speculating though I would be interested to know how many producers at least east coast producers back then ever used the swing function.

[Rumpel]

Originally Posted by Bravo

A sampled drum sound already has it's own timing programmed into it. After all it was taken 'mid-groove' off the record or whatever. .

WTF!! This has got to be one of the most ridiculous things I have ever seen written anywhere!

[DAH]

Originally Posted by Bravo

I've been thinking about this for a minute and I agree with you. In my estimation the actual feel of a sampler/sequencer is it's sound which is especially significant with drums. A sampled drum sound already has it's own timing programmed into it. After all it was taken 'mid-groove' off the record or whatever. Now each machine has a different sound and this is crucial because the timing of the drum sound changes too. Like the exact location of the 'umph' in each sound changes when the sound is changed. As for the sequencing, the feel on most external sequencers made in those days or any machine with 96ppq would probably be mostly the same with inherent irregularities in each. Add to that a certain machine's unique sound and boom, there's your feel. I think swing settings were rarely used in hip-hop back then anyway it was mostly straight ahead trial and error real-time programming so maybe people are talking about 'swing this swing that' just because the machine had the extra swing feature implemented. Just speculating though I would be interested to know how many producers at least east coast producers back then ever used the swing function.

Tell this to the New Jack Swing producers...
64 % swing on kicks is Primo, whoever has owned an MP knows it immediately )))).
But I don`t believe in the MPC magic, be it the sequencer or the sound. Sample selection and mixing skills is 100 times more important.

[terrytee]

Originally Posted by DAH

64 % swing on kicks is Primo, whoever has owned an MP knows it immediately )))).

That measurement will changes based on the bpm and drum samples each and every time, plus the over all feel of the track. Some are stronger than triplet and some will have none at all. There are 2 many joints by that guy were he is blatantly turning the quantize off.. Also the placement of the hat and snare are far more important that most cats think and am not not just speaking about prem.

[carlheinz]

"A sampled drum sound already has it's own timing programmed into it"

Not really.The only timing a sample of a drum has is it's decay or duration.

[viewing]

i just meant the reverb and compression in the original sound might make it sound better near certain tempos? like some drums wouldn't work at too fast or too slow a tempo.

[DAH]

Originally Posted by terrytee

That measurement will changes based on the bpm and drum samples each and every time, plus the over all feel of the track. Some are stronger than triplet and some will have none at all. There are 2 many joints by that guy were he is blatantly turning the quantize off.. Also the placement of the hat and snare are far more important that most cats think and am not not just speaking about prem.

The drums as a whole should be tuned on the microtiming level (some ticks FWD\BWD) as should the other melodic stuff (the latter to the drum groove)

[terrytee]

Originally Posted by DAH

The drums as a whole should be tuned on the microtiming level (some ticks FWD\BWD) as should the other melodic stuff (the latter to the drum groove)

WTF are u talking about "microtiming level"



As with any good drummer there are a million & one techniques you can use for groove which can be translated to any daw or good drum machine but at the end of the day there really isn't a absolute formula for anything, it's gonna be different every time the most important thing is the ear & having your own style plus just letting that shit flow. Not thinking about it to much can be a good start.

[3rd Degree]

Quite simply...the 4000 was ahead of it's time and is a true work horse. The 3000 is limited but many people feel the sound outweighs the inconviences of it's short commings. This is the basic part but here say and personal preference take these arguments so far.

In the end, each MPC has it's own great qualities. Some are in sound, some are in price, some are just how easy they are to use. For me, I can't use anything pre 2000 (though I would recommend an xl), just based on sample time. That is me. I may buy a 60, that is just to have one, I couldn't really use it for more than a drum machine. That doesn't make it bad, that's how I work.

[EspionageWHW]

Originally Posted by Justice

What the mpc brings that no other sampler series I can think of has duplicated is that slight triple or quad triple sound

I own an MPC 4k but have not used it too much yet, I like this thread and am interested in understanding all the opinions here, but can somebody please give me a comprehensive explanation as to what "slight triple" and "quad triple" refer to in the context here. I did a search on these terms and yielded no results. Any help will be appreciated!

Thanks
-Espionage

[DAH]

Originally Posted by terrytee

WTF are u talking about "microtiming level"



As with any good drummer there are a million & one techniques you can use for groove which can be translated to any daw or good drum machine but at the end of the day there really isn't a absolute formula for anything, it's gonna be different every time the most important thing is the ear & having your own style plus just letting that shit flow. Not thinking about it to much can be a good start.

I mean tick + \ - delay between the kick, snare and hats

[kebzer]

Sadly, most people confuse "swing" with "feel". Of course the swing settings are the same for every MPC in the line, from the birth of the 60 mk1 onwards. It's a simple function, designed by Roger Linn.

But the feel of each one is a totally different story.

The first two, and only designed by Roger Linn himself and old school AKAI engineers, bring magic cause it's all about things they "miss" due to processing limitations / choises or OS programming. This is something that will never be replicated by any other MPC or software. This is what we love in those machines. Not the % swing setting.

The 4k brings other magic with it's absolutely stunning features, still to this date. The only problem with this machine is that people took it as granted that it should be another "hiphop" machine, like the earlier 2k and 2kxl. Wrong. This goes way beyond hiphop. If you take it outside that box, you'll see that it has nothing comparable to the 3k. Completely different leagues.

[laboso]

i still dont understand why there cant be an update for the mpc3000 which supports WAVE FORMAT!
would take years to convert my library to *.SND
this is a major factor for me not to use the 3000... i could vomit only by thinking about it to have to convert any sample to snd first before i could load it up in the 3K! this would have a huge affect on my workflow while im creative...

[grouphome]

Having them both, I can say there is no magical swing in the 3000.
That magic swing is just sample chop imperfections. (little more or less air before you drum hit)

Soundwise I like em both. With use of the filters I can make the 4000 sound a bit like the 3000 (not 100 percent but got nice sound to it)

Before I had the mpc3000 I got an S3000 (still got it somewhere)
In combi with my 2000 I still got the 3000 sound.

[mike dean]

i got 2 3k and 1 4k havent started up 3000's in years. bought a 5000.. returned it next day... 4k is mothership