Jay Dee's licks / Bassline Technique - NOT his mixdown / keyboard used or whatever

[Kool J Gheezy]

Hi all,

I've been awed and amazed since long by the intricacy (considering we're not looking at a high-profile session bassplayer) of Jay Dee's basslines (and certainly others, just now I can't think of any other names whose work embodies the concept equally well).

I'm not inquiring about what he used to make them or what was done to make them sound the way they do, but rather how did he go about recording them. I'm pretty sure he used keyboards to do the trick on his Vintage-period work.

Now, what I've been asking myself is : did he actually play them live on keys or did he work with patterns or maybe even something else that lies beyond my consideration. I'm trying to learn a lot from his work by emulation and I think the two most important aspects of his work, the two elements he brought to the table where he pushed the envelope further than other guys were : drums and basslines. now drums are a different topic, and I'm not struggling with drum programming.

But personally, I find it hard adding live basslines as opposed to pattern / step-sequenced basslines, for the most part because I'm having a hard time even hearing what I'm playing when there's other elements in the mix. This is not a monitoring issue, I've got adequate equipment. I can attest from listening to a lot of Jay Dee's work, the aforementioned Vintage EP being a case in point, that even there the basslines get really subliminal at times, almost imperceptibly subtle.

Bottom line is : I can't believe he played them by ear like that. So either my ears suck because often times I have to record my basslines with a higher pitch than what I want and transpose em down an octave when it's done so I can actually hear what I'm doing. Or, on the other hand, Jay Dee had some real musician ship goin where he actually KNEW what to play and sounded good and had it all in his head so he could record sub basslines live without hitting a false note. Additionally, I've found it rather cumbersome trying to add complex bass patterns with a keyboard. Probably due to a lack of skill? I do play the piano a bit tho...
On a sidenote, I don't think there are (a lot of) other producers who've attained similar skills, i.e. the complexity of the bassline, not the "bumpbababump".

I hope my (lengthy) post gets my point accross.

Appreciate your feedback,

Later,

J

[MarkusColeman]

try a different approach: make instrumental music first (without drums), then add drums. you'll give the basslines their well deserved place in the mix and you'll be able to play them more musically - if that makes sense to you.

and it's pretty hard to play "live" basslines on the keys - unless you know how to programm synths and know how the whole modulation thing works, or you are great at sampling and start with great samples and on top know how to trigger the different layers correctly.

it's pretty hard to emulate guitars in general - now matter if flamenco or bass.
actually, string instruments in general are pretty hard to play realistically on keys.
I guess that's why you don't hear that many great basslines in today's hip hop - unless they are played with a real guitar.

[beat you down]

Originally Posted by MarkusColeman

try a different approach: make instrumental music first (without drums), then add drums. you'll give the basslines their well deserved place in the mix and you'll be able to play them more musically - if that makes sense to you.

second!

[matthew.sawicki]

I'm just saying this based on what you said in your post, but it seems like you might wanted to develop your musicianship skills a little more.

I'm not familiar with the record you're talking about, but I get the impression that the qualities you admire are ones that come with years of experience. To be able to lay down basslines that absolutely fit the pocket and add that specialness to your tracks, you need to have a musician that plays that way. Some people have that natural talent straight from the get go, but others of us have to develop our musicianship one day at a time.

Hire a bass player

[Kool J Gheezy]

thanks for everybody's 2c but not quite what I was aiming for.

I can get some nice basslines down, no prob, great cadence and all. but I'd have to program them rather than actuallly play them on my instrument.
I have considered picking up a real bass instrument, yea, but that's a different topic.

that's not what Jay Dee did, he used keyboards - I don't think he played the bass a lot if ever. I was in fact specifically refering to HIS particular approach. It doesn't seem to exist a lot of information on how he layed down his basslines, but I can tell from the sound he did none of the above on the daily. check out some of his stuff : the basslines get way more complex than on your average hiphop track, but it's definitely not real bass playing, it's all synths.

I was sort of hoping maybe some people frequenting this forum might know more about how he did it or might could have done it.

if you don't know jay dee's work you can't contribute here in a constructive way. I'm not looking for advice like "pick up a bass and practice for 10 years". I'm not trying to become a session player and spend additional 2 grand on recording equipment.
also, as there's hardly a handful of hiphop producers out there who have achieved a similar skill at laying down basslines, there must be some kind of magic to it I reckon.

appreciate it,

J

[matthew.sawicki]

I'll check out some of his stuff when I get out of the studio tonight... sorry if my answer before was to broad due to the fact that I haven't specifically heard him.

I'll let you know what I think!

[Kool J Gheezy]

check out the "Vintage" instrumental EP and you'll get a fair idea of what I mean. the more recent stuff is on a different tip more or less so.

the basslines are not always THAT special, but quite often.

also, there's Renaissance Soul Detroit v4.0 - www.rensoul.com which has a Jay Dee / Dilla profile and realaudio sample files of about all Dilla production that ever got released.

it doesn't have to be Jay Dee. could be any other artist laying down similar basslines.

thanks,

lates,

J

[TheGetDown]

just use a light touch on a synth action midi controller, it will sound more bouncy

[affinitysound]

im not sure if this will help exactly what ur looking for but i remember from watchin the bob powers interview (engineer for a few jay dee produced albums), that jay dee would make a bassline, and then replay and layer the same bassline with a real bassy sub(from a roland juno 106 i believe) only 1 or 2 octaves down....so you couldnt realy hear the notes....but you could definately feel the bass from it. just some info for ya.

[A-List]

i bet you someone on this forum has watched him lay down a bassline or two. what songs of his in particular are you thinking about? if i were you i would really keep studying his patterns more. count it all out.

[affinitysound]

i also know he used alot of analog synths , one of them being the mooq voyager, which has alot of warm subby bass presets.

[khameln]

I think you're overanalyzing it... It's not that hard to just listen to a beat and lay a phat bassline down on keyboard. People do it in neo-soul all the time... It's practically a requirement unless you have a real bass player (like Hub from the Roots) doing it.

Studying some music theory and... well, practicing will help. I mean, it's not really much more complicated than that.

[DirtyMan]

Mpc pads

[Killah_Trakz]

look into the yamaha midi guitar, and grab somethignlinke trilogy and have a nice day.

[Kool J Gheezy]

thanks all. but I've got to admit I'm puzzled why so many people don't know how to read.

Everybody please do read and acknowledge the subject line :

I'm N O T trying to make it sound fuller or more bassy or thumping or whatever. I was wondering how he played the bass, not what he used or how it was mixed down.

Someone's gotta have a clue. For the time being I guess I have to stick with what I thought he did in the first place : Prolly had a lot of experience and skill on the keys so I reckon he just did it like that.

Anyone got more info on how the mentioned "neosoul" cats do it? Links? Videos? Anything? Maybe there's a special approach to it. Usually you don't play bass on keys...well, not like really funky, right?

Lates,

J

[affinitysound]

Kind of a silly question then. If you already know what keyboards he used and how bassy he got it to sound, plus you've heard tons of his beats...what else is there to know??? He simply experimented on keys till somethin cool popped up like every other musician. Your thinking too much.....just sit down make a beat and start jammin on bass till it sounds nice.

[FunkFromTheSun]

There is no secret to this. Practice playing your instrument. If you don't know how to play your instrument, you will never be able to realize your visions. Period.

[wizzle]

Yo....let me shed just a little light on this subject for you KOOL. Working with Dilla for years, it was very RARE that I saw him play basslines out on a keyboard. He mostly ALWAYS used the pads on his 3000 to make it all happen...and NO he didnt use alot of analog synths. I met and worked with Dilla in the last 4 or 5 years of his life and I can tell you that he only used one analog synth and that was his Minimoog Voyager. Well, he did use my Minimoog once. He didnt use his Voyager much though....at least not keyboard on the voyager. He had it midi(ed) to his 3000 and just used the sounds from it. Hope this helps a little bit. If you have anymore Dilla questions, I may be able to help you. Get at me. Peace.

-B. Williams

[khameln]

Originally Posted by Kool J Gheezy

Anyone got more info on how the mentioned "neosoul" cats do it? Links? Videos? Anything? Maybe there's a special approach to it. Usually you don't play bass on keys...well, not like really funky, right?

Lates,

J

There is no "special approach".. You just do it. I've done whole gigs playing just keyboard bass. Yeah, on the spot live as a substitute for a bass player. So why are you so concerned about playing a 4-bar bassline for a track? Just keep doing it, and remember you have as many takes as you need to get it right.

[affinitysound]

Just curious . just how much of dillas beat was completed in his mpc. did he already have it practically mixed in the mpc already before even tracking it out. i'vr always wondered that. And also did he have pre-made drum kits of his own or did he make his drums so nice in post production???? damn those dilla drums....so tight!!!!

[wizzle]

Affinity.......yeah, his stuff was pretty much mixed how he wanted it in the MPC.....After he got the shit pretty much where he wanted it, he would take his MP over to Studio A, dump and do final mixes. That until we built the studio in the basement. After we did that, it was rare that he went over to Studio A. He has so much stuff down there it was unreal. One of the secrets to dillas drums is the Presonus ACP88. He would traack all of his drums through it. He also used a Presonus M80. He had al kinds of Focusrite "Red" Series stuff and NEVER used any of it. He has LA2A's, 1176's, None of it got used. LOL! Keep the questions coming. This is fun. It brings back alot of memories.

[wizzle]

Forgot something.....no, he didnt have a bunch of pre-made kits. He did have alot of sounds on zips and stuff though. He would either sample new drums or just search for the "perfect" drums on his zips. He gave me a case of like 15 zips and a whole bunch or records one time. I was floored. Still using those drums to this day.

[affinitysound]

have u ever witnessed him make any classic? now that would be somethin to remember

[wizzle]

It depends on whats "classic" to you. I was there during the Like Water For Chocolate album....um...the Mamas Gun album. He used my JP8000 on both of those albums now that I think of it. He didnt want to give it back. LOL!!!!! Um...let's see. What else....Oh, The Welcome To Detroit album. I was around for some of that....some Frank n Dank stuff, Amp Fiddler stuff, um....and some other various stuff.

[coolout]

Originally Posted by wizzle

Affinity.......yeah, his stuff was pretty much mixed how he wanted it in the MPC.....After he got the shit pretty much where he wanted it, he would take his MP over to Studio A, dump and do final mixes. That until we built the studio in the basement. After we did that, it was rare that he went over to Studio A. He has so much stuff down there it was unreal. One of the secrets to dillas drums is the Presonus ACP88. He would traack all of his drums through it. He also used a Presonus M80. He had al kinds of Focusrite "Red" Series stuff and NEVER used any of it. He has LA2A's, 1176's, None of it got used. LOL! Keep the questions coming. This is fun. It brings back alot of memories.

Thanks man, I always wondered about how Dilla compressed his drums. I guess the Presonus stuff was the difference between Detroit - Jaylib/48 Hours - era beats and the LA - 2005 - soul chops/donuts stuff. I take it he was using the M80 and the ACP88 to preamp, compress/limit, and gate the 8 outputs on the MPC.

That's really smart because all you would have to do is just stand at that one rack and mix the MPC samples quickly.

Did you ever notice him using any sidechaining with the ACP88?

[wizzle]

No sidechaining. Everything was pretty straight up.

[affinitysound]

i saw his L.A. home studio in the behind the beat book, it looked pretty modest compared to his detroit shit....looked like he had a basic mpc straight into an mbox, wasnt usin 8 outputs or nothin like that. I guess noo matter what kinda setup he had he was still unstoppable. You see bigger name producers rockin on some million dollar studio shit, but dilla could do it better than anyone even with the simplest setup.

[Kool J Gheezy]

hey wiz-man thanks for droppin some inside-first-hand knowledge, I really appreciate that.

Personally, I've never had an mpc but I've always liked the idea of having touch-responsive pads like on an mpc for triggering, like samples or laying drums or stuff like that, or just anything else... considering I've never used any of the above mentioned equipment, or any outboard stuff other than a tapedeck, I've always been very satisfied with how my drums sound. (At one point tho I was thinking about buying a Rane TTM56 to add some drive to my drum tracks. (instead I bought a Vestax, needed a battle mixer not so much production equipment))
just use a good sound to start with. your engineer will give you the edge they might lack during mastering... I stopped comparing my drums to fully-mastered drums, and why the heck should I not? I'm just an enthusiast, not no next J Deezy... well, there's a different thread on that topic.

Playing basslines on an mpc? Hmm. Now how would you do that? Or rather, why? That sounds even less intuitive / natural than trying to do the trick on keys. I can imagine using samples on the pads or using them as midi triggers, interesting find tho.

Appreciate it,

J

[Kool J Gheezy]

I forgot : @khamel : I'm not talking about 4 bars. I'm talking about like 8 or 16. hahahaha. now really tho, I'm lookin for more variation than just 4 bars.

lates,

J