Tips on Mixing Drums

[MarkusColeman]

Originally Posted by xabiton

why wouldnt i be? i dont get how the engineer could totally change the way a drum sounds itself. If that was the case then why even worry about sounds and sound quality in general as a cat who makes beats which is generally what i do. Im not an engineer and don't completely understand engineering........

there are dozens of great producers, hundreds of awesome musicians..........but only a couple of top notch mix engineers. think about that for a second.

while most cats' careers are over after a couple of years of producing, many (if not most) of the engineers have been doing it for over a decade, or two......or even longer.

they say that it takes you at least a decade to become outstanding, to be a master of a field of "science"; no matter if programming, basketball or production.

I know this and you can find proof for this theory in as many aspects of the "professional world" as you want to look at: most guys start production at the age of 15-18 - when do they score their first "hits"? right, 10 years later.
most kids these days start to play basketball at the age of 8-9 - when do they become great players? right, 10 years later, after high school/while in college.

Originally Posted by xabiton

I understand sound design to some extent but blending and making a cohesive mix shouldn't completely change the sound right? if that were the case cats would just start usin $20 casio keyboards on everything and lettin the engineer handle the rest......

you can buy the $20 casio used for "Milkshake" - but can you hire Bruce Swedien, Serban Ghenea or Jimmy Douglas for 20 dollars? you answered your own question.

yes, you can produce a great song, using shitty FL Studio sounds and then bring it to one of the aformentioned guys: if you can show them your vision, they will turn that great song........into an awesome sounding song.

behind every great producer, there's an even better mixing engineer.
or for that matter, call him a "song's sound & flow designer".
so if you find that Chosen One, lock him in your basement and hire two bodyguards to guard him, so that he can't escape.
seriously, that's the only advice I can give you.
I'm still looking for THAT guy.

of course, you can go the "DIAY - Do It All Yourself" route. but how many Reaissance Men besides Da Vinci do you know?

or to quote Isaac Newton: "If I have been able to see further, it was only because I stood on the shoulders of giants"

[khameln]

Originally Posted by xabiton

why wouldnt i be? i dont get how the engineer could totally change the way a drum sounds itself. If that was the case then why even worry about sounds and sound quality in general as a cat who makes beats which is generally what i do.

Man you need to just stop now and go learn the basics... Because if you can't understand things like this, you won't really be able to make use of the advice given to you anyway. Start learning more about mixing, audio, etc.

[Sirocco]

Originally Posted by khameln

Man you need to just stop now and go learn the basics... Because if you can't understand things like this, you won't really be able to make use of the advice given to you anyway. Start reading more about mixing, audio, etc.

hey khamel, be sure to message me on AIM - i was not on my home computer before so i lost your screen name!

[KevWest]

Originally Posted by MarkusColeman

there are dozens of great producers, hundreds of awesome musicians..........but only a couple of top notch mix engineers. think about that for a second.

while most cats' careers are over after a couple of years of producing, many (if not most) of the engineers have been doing it for over a decade, or two......or even longer.

they say that it takes you at least a decade to become outstanding, to be a master of a field of "science"; no matter if programming, basketball or production.

I know this and you can find proof for this theory in as many aspects of the "professional world" as you want to look at: most guys start production at the age of 15-18 - when do they score their first "hits"? right, 10 years later.
most kids these days start to play basketball at the age of 8-9 - when do they become great players? right, 10 years later, after high school/while in college.

it takes time to become great at anything yes i agree but since i dont know a lot about engineering i can only assume its the same as everything else

Originally Posted by MarkusColeman

you can buy the $20 casio used for "Milkshake" - but can you hire Bruce Swedien, Serban Ghenea or Jimmy Douglas for 20 dollars? you answered your own question.

yes, you can produce a great song, using shitty FL Studio sounds and then bring it to one of the aformentioned guys: if you can show them your vision, they will turn that great song........into an awesome sounding song.

behind every great producer, there's an even better mixing engineer.
or for that matter, call him a "song's sound & flow designer".
so if you find that Chosen One, lock him in your basement and hire two bodyguards to guard him, so that he can't escape.
seriously, that's the only advice I can give you.
I'm still looking for THAT guy.

of course, you can go the "DIAY - Do It All Yourself" route. but how many Reaissance Men besides Da Vinci do you know?

or to quote Isaac Newton: "If I have been able to see further, it was only because I stood on the shoulders of giants"

i have no idea who any of those guys are to know any difference. It sounds to me like your giving the engineer more credit for mixing a track than the composer gets for composing the track and selecting good sounds to begin with. Maybe because I dont understand engineering as much as a lot of u guys do its over my head but meet me where im at. to me engineering is really as simple as blending and carving tracks to give it the best sound possible for those who dont know how to or dont want to i could be very wrong but most engineers ive dealt with simple plug things in run pro tools edit tracks and blend tracks and add eq and reverb i dont get what makes any engineer better than any other in that aspect. Most of u guys are engineers and have been for years and i think because of this u kinda expect me to be at the point where u r at but im not therefore this is all over my head i still have no idea how JD changing engineers would alter the sound of his 808s especially if they are the same sounds he has had for years. nor do i understand why dude posted the video for the mv8000.

[KevWest]

Originally Posted by khameln

Man you need to just stop now and go learn the basics... Because if you can't understand things like this, you won't really be able to make use of the advice given to you anyway. Start learning more about mixing, audio, etc.

i know some basic information on audio, mixing, midi ect but im no expert which is why i came here for help. You guys expect me to be where u r at when in fact Im not if I was I wouldnt be here asking for help

[Krumbz]

If you really want to be at the top of your game you should learn not only music production/creation but the fundamentals of audio engineering.

1. If you knew how to properly EQ your sounds... any sounds... you wouldn't have made this thread.
2. Your sounds will come out the way YOU want them to. You'll have the ability to change sounds according to your tastes.
3. It's all pretty damn interesting!

To answer your question... my approach to getting drums to sound phat is this...

First I layer my kicks and snares. Usually 3 kicks and 3 snares.

I try to find similiar sounding and looking waveforms and match them up so they aren't out of "phase". <--- You would know what that is if you brushed up on engineering.

I read Siroccos response and think thats a creative way to go about this but I do it a little different.

I take those 3 layered kicks and apply an EQ to each of them. I go ahead and boost or cut (no more then 6db!) EACH kick to get the sound I desire. For example I'll EQ Kick A then EQ Kick B... then mix them and see where I may have to back off the EQ or boost it. After I have those blended... I EQ Kick C and bring it up in the mix. I try to blend it with the other 2 kicks... and adjust the EQ etc to make it fit snug.

I do the same thing with snares.

Then I use some NY compression on them... I send them out to a compressor and bring them back on their own track. So now I have UN processed Kicks and a track of Compressed Kicks.

I'll take the compressed kicks and lift them up underneath the UNprocessed kicks to give it a little more ooomph. Just be sure to check for "Phasing" issues again and adjust.

Then when my song is completely arranged and mixed... I'll throw an Ultramaximizer /Limiter/ Compressor on the Master track.

I'll set the ceiling to 0.3 db and bring the Input down til about 3 db before it peaks in the Ultramaximizer. Then I'll lower the threshold til I feel my drums getting compressed. Adjust the Attack and Release to taste and raise your Output or Makeup Gain to compensate for the compression.

Instant "Boom" to your beats!

Goodluck!

[Sirocco]

Originally Posted by Krumbz

If you really want to be at the top of your game you should learn not only music production/creation but the fundamentals of audio engineering.

1. If you knew how to properly EQ your sounds... any sounds... you wouldn't have made this thread.
2. Your sounds will come out the way YOU want them to. You'll have the ability to change sounds according to your tastes.
3. It's all pretty damn interesting!

To answer your question... my approach to getting drums to sound phat is this...

First I layer my kicks and snares. Usually 3 kicks and 3 snares.

I try to find similiar sounding and looking waveforms and match them up so they aren't out of "phase". <--- You would know what that is if you brushed up on engineering.

I read Siroccos response and think thats a creative way to go about this but I do it a little different.

I take those 3 layered kicks and apply an EQ to each of them. I go ahead and boost or cut (no more then 6db!) EACH kick to get the sound I desire. For example I'll EQ Kick A then EQ Kick B... then mix them and see where I may have to back off the EQ or boost it. After I have those blended... I EQ Kick C and bring it up in the mix. I try to blend it with the other 2 kicks... and adjust the EQ etc to make it fit snug.

I do the same thing with snares.

Then I use some NY compression on them... I send them out to a compressor and bring them back on their own track. So now I have UN processed Kicks and a track of Compressed Kicks.

I'll take the compressed kicks and lift them up underneath the UNprocessed kicks to give it a little more ooomph. Just be sure to check for "Phasing" issues again and adjust.

Then when my song is completely arranged and mixed... I'll throw an Ultramaximizer /Limiter/ Compressor on the Master track.

I'll set the ceiling to 0.3 db and bring the Input down til about 3 db before it peaks in the Ultramaximizer. Then I'll lower the threshold til I feel my drums getting compressed. Adjust the Attack and Release to taste and raise your Output or Makeup Gain to compensate for the compression.

Instant "Boom" to your beats!

Goodluck!

i do something similiar usually -- my response was for mixing "tuned" drums that go with a melody or such - such as boomy 808s

nice post!

[wavez]

IMO it´s all about getting the first layer right (make it sound as good as possible). 95% of the time i use only eq and pitch shifting for that. I almost never pitch down my snares, if i need a snare with lower frequency range, i choose another sample which has that. Also for my first layer i usually choose samples which have distinctive root frequencys, so its easyer to tune them with rest of the track.

Hope it helps and sorry for my bad english!

[khameln]

Wavez why don't you pitch snares down? I hear a lot of drums in songs we all know that have been pitched down intentionally, because it gives the drum a different sound and has the added benefit (in Hip-Hop) of effectively lowering the bitrate and moving the harmonics lower for a deeper "fat" sound*.

In terms of grit, it's not the same as just boosting lows or using a sample of a drum that was tuned lower, or even just straight-up bit-reduction.

[ONE LUV]

khameln: you have to update your myspace page! hire a webmaster and pimp your space... your music is outstanding but your myspace doesn´t reflect that.

all these wannabe rapper kids got better pages and designs...i know it´s the music that counts, but this was my first thought when i hit your page and just wanted to help...

it´s like the guy in this other thread who bought a bimmer just to step up his business - in a more essential way


btw: the track memories on your soundclick: could you tell us your used instruments (vst´s?) and how you got that 70ies sound (signalchain?) ?? great work.

[KevWest]

Originally Posted by Krumbz

If you really want to be at the top of your game you should learn not only music production/creation but the fundamentals of audio engineering.

1. If you knew how to properly EQ your sounds... any sounds... you wouldn't have made this thread.
2. Your sounds will come out the way YOU want them to. You'll have the ability to change sounds according to your tastes.
3. It's all pretty damn interesting!

To answer your question... my approach to getting drums to sound phat is this...

First I layer my kicks and snares. Usually 3 kicks and 3 snares.

I try to find similiar sounding and looking waveforms and match them up so they aren't out of "phase". <--- You would know what that is if you brushed up on engineering.

I read Siroccos response and think thats a creative way to go about this but I do it a little different.

I take those 3 layered kicks and apply an EQ to each of them. I go ahead and boost or cut (no more then 6db!) EACH kick to get the sound I desire. For example I'll EQ Kick A then EQ Kick B... then mix them and see where I may have to back off the EQ or boost it. After I have those blended... I EQ Kick C and bring it up in the mix. I try to blend it with the other 2 kicks... and adjust the EQ etc to make it fit snug.

I do the same thing with snares.

Then I use some NY compression on them... I send them out to a compressor and bring them back on their own track. So now I have UN processed Kicks and a track of Compressed Kicks.

I'll take the compressed kicks and lift them up underneath the UNprocessed kicks to give it a little more ooomph. Just be sure to check for "Phasing" issues again and adjust.

Then when my song is completely arranged and mixed... I'll throw an Ultramaximizer /Limiter/ Compressor on the Master track.

I'll set the ceiling to 0.3 db and bring the Input down til about 3 db before it peaks in the Ultramaximizer. Then I'll lower the threshold til I feel my drums getting compressed. Adjust the Attack and Release to taste and raise your Output or Makeup Gain to compensate for the compression.

Instant "Boom" to your beats!

Goodluck!

while i do agree i should brush up on some engineering im not going to pretend that being a engineer is my goal. However you missed my point entirely. My kicks are punchy without layering the problem really is that they are muddy and sometimes boomier than I want them to be. I think I have figured out what I was doing wrong but you completely missed the question entirely.

[wavez]

Originally Posted by khameln

Wavez why don't you pitch snares down? I hear a lot of drums in songs we all know that have been pitched down intentionally, because it gives the drum a different sound and has the added benefit (in Hip-Hop) of effectively lowering the bitrate and moving the harmonics lower for a deeper "fat" sound*.

In terms of grit, it's not the same as just boosting lows or using a sample of a drum that was tuned lower, or even just straight-up bit-reduction.

I dont know man, i usually dont get any good results when pitching snares down, it pretty much always makes them sound weak(in terms of punch and quality). I love the tightness what pitching up gives. Personal preference i guess. If i need that fatness, then i´ll layer it with some acoustic snare (they have usually pretty low root, so at times i pitch them up too) or some electric kit snare (ex. Linndrum ).

[Turi]

Originally Posted by Krumbz

If you really want to be at the top of your game you should learn not only music production/creation but the fundamentals of audio engineering.

1. If you knew how to properly EQ your sounds... any sounds... you wouldn't have made this thread.
2. Your sounds will come out the way YOU want them to. You'll have the ability to change sounds according to your tastes.
3. It's all pretty damn interesting!

To answer your question... my approach to getting drums to sound phat is this...

First I layer my kicks and snares. Usually 3 kicks and 3 snares.

I try to find similiar sounding and looking waveforms and match them up so they aren't out of "phase". <--- You would know what that is if you brushed up on engineering.

I read Siroccos response and think thats a creative way to go about this but I do it a little different.

I take those 3 layered kicks and apply an EQ to each of them. I go ahead and boost or cut (no more then 6db!) EACH kick to get the sound I desire. For example I'll EQ Kick A then EQ Kick B... then mix them and see where I may have to back off the EQ or boost it. After I have those blended... I EQ Kick C and bring it up in the mix. I try to blend it with the other 2 kicks... and adjust the EQ etc to make it fit snug.

I do the same thing with snares.

Then I use some NY compression on them... I send them out to a compressor and bring them back on their own track. So now I have UN processed Kicks and a track of Compressed Kicks.

I'll take the compressed kicks and lift them up underneath the UNprocessed kicks to give it a little more ooomph. Just be sure to check for "Phasing" issues again and adjust.

Then when my song is completely arranged and mixed... I'll throw an Ultramaximizer /Limiter/ Compressor on the Master track.

I'll set the ceiling to 0.3 db and bring the Input down til about 3 db before it peaks in the Ultramaximizer. Then I'll lower the threshold til I feel my drums getting compressed. Adjust the Attack and Release to taste and raise your Output or Makeup Gain to compensate for the compression.

Instant "Boom" to your beats!

Goodluck!

Great post Krumbz, that's almost exactly how I approach the drums as well.
and xabiton - your tracks will never sound anything other than average if you don't understand at least the basics of engineering. I'm no engineering master myself, but I've picked up some great tips over the years, as well as experimenting to find what works to get the sound I'm trying to achieve.

It's worth learning a few things so that you're not fumbling around in the dark, so to speak, when trying to get your EQs right and make every element stand out in the mix the way it needs to. Good luck with your drums!

[khameln]

Originally Posted by ONE LUV

khameln: you have to update your myspace page! hire a webmaster and pimp your space... your music is outstanding but your myspace doesn´t reflect that.

all these wannabe rapper kids got better pages and designs...i know it´s the music that counts, but this was my first thought when i hit your page and just wanted to help...

it´s like the guy in this other thread who bought a bimmer just to step up his business - in a more essential way


btw: the track memories on your soundclick: could you tell us your used instruments (vst´s?) and how you got that 70ies sound (signalchain?) ?? great work.

Thanks... I actually used to design for a living, so I am working on a Flash layout right now. That was basically a 5-minute "something to put up" case that's been up for way too long while I finish the new page.

The music is also old, I've grown since then and the new music is better, but thanks again :D

And instrument-wise everything is Reason. 70ish sound is eq, possibly some colortone, sonitex.