Did Dr.Dre Ruin "Hip Hop Mastering" with the Chronic 2001???

[Stress Man]

On the Soulstrut forum independent Rapper/Producer from the Group "People Under The Stairs" Thes One makes some strong accusations of Dre and the chonic 2001. He Claims Dre wanted the Chronic 2001 to be the "LOUDEST CD EVER" and that his approach influenced others to try to do the same and in turn destroyed the dynamics of most Hip Hop CD's. This is how he claims this happened:

Man I was trying to stay out of this thread! haha. I agree that Quik is def. that dude but on the other hand Dre/Aftermath is not in relation to the above question: The Chronic was a landmark in both engineering and mastering in the sense that Bernie was brought a product that was already mixed well, coming off an API legacy and tape, etc., it gives you alot of room to make for a great master. Chronic 2001 on the other hand is catshit. An engineer I know was at B.G. when C2001 was brought in and apparently Dre insisted that it be "the loudest CD ever". Well, that's kind of a ridiculous statement because it's all binary and can't be louder than the subjective 0, but i digress, they just wanted it to be the "loudest" in the sense that when it was put in it was louder than any CD the listener had played before it. So they mastered it once and submitted it and Dre responded that it was not loud enough. As the story goes it was done again and Dre replied that it was still not loud enough. B.G. replied that he can't push it any louder without squaring it off or distorting it. Dre still wanted it louder. B.G. said he wouldn't make a distorted, squared off record with his name on it and as the story goes, it was passed off to Brian Gardner who completed the project. And if you check that record on a critical system it is indeed distorted in more than one place and completely squared off, so much so that the waves look like a shoe-box.

I think though, that when this threshold was crossed it was the beginning of the end for hip hop mastering, engineers were forced to chase loudness as opposed to quality. Things are way out of speck when they get mastered, loud, distorted and squashed with no dynamic range and very little stereo width; usually at least 4+ dbs above the AES curves and the pink scale. To push music this hard that was made digitally and never recorded to tape at any point along the way makes for very harsh listening.

As much as I respect Dre's camp for sound quality I thought maybe that was a fluke, but when I checked Busta's the Big Bang it appeared things were worse than ever over at the 'MAth. That record sounds like complete puppyshit. It was unlistenable on my monitors it was so harsh. Someone must have had too much toilet paper on their NS10's because my Adam's said "NOOOO!". I mean, not as bad as some dipset shit but, you know really bad.


Here's the link:

http://www.soulstrut.com/ubbthreads/...page=0&fpart=6

[PhonoquO]

chronic2001 broke many boundaries in production and it is to be respected for the great album that it was and is. The cd sounds great in just about any system, is loud and present and has lots of depth. good enough for me. i still reference it quite often.

[Stress Man]

Originally Posted by PhonoquO

chronic2001 broke many boundaries in production and it is to be respected for the great album that it was and is. The cd sounds great in just about any system, is loud and present and has lots of depth. good enough for me. i still reference it quite often.

I kinda find it hard to believe that Bernie Grundman couldn't master 2001 to Dre's liking though.

[Smitty Boy]

I guess thats's why the tracks that Dre produced on Jay-Z's Kindom Come sound distorted. He probably wanted that "loud" sound. Imo, if you want loud, just turn the sh*t up.

[Heezzi]

People forget that dynamics = more listening = more sales.. That's why that first Alicia Keys album has high marks in my book. That album is easy on the ears.

[mattssons]

I like distorted cd´s if they are not played on older cdplayers that can´t handle the level.

What i do not like is brickwalled cd´s without dynamics.
Now there´s a difference.. /Toby

[Sirocco]

i dont think it was a mastering decision to push the mixes into oblivion.

elements had to be mixed to make it that way.

and the big bang sounds awesome to me

I can hear the distortion in both the Chronic and the Big Bang.
I don't care for it, but What Can YOU DO? You have to compete with the guys that set standards.

For anyone who says they are not terribly distorted (perhaps you are used to it and hear it less today), I say play something like Biggie's Ready to Die Album or Snoop's first album and then play the 2 records above and you'll hear it.

ITs NOT progress.

But again, what can you do?

[Heezzi]

That newest Young Jeezy cd was squashed to death also. They wondering why albums not selling, when you can hear that the dynamics have a major part in the decline.


Ear fatigue and bad mixng and mastering directly relates to poor sales. It's all subconsious.

[Fat Pat]

Originally Posted by Heezzi

That newest Young Jeezy cd was squashed to death also. They wondering why albums not selling, when you can hear that the dynamics have a major part in the decline.


Ear fatigue and bad mixng and mastering directly relates to poor sales. It's all subconsious.

hahhaahha!

you must think Tupac is still alive, huh?

[day-go]

no disrespect to thes one (who is an extremely talented producer), but am i the only one that thinks chronic 2001 sounds great? maybe not on high quality monitors, but imho that record sounds better than most rap albums on pretty much every consumer stereo system i've heard it on. i'm no mastering engineer, but my ears sure do like it.

[Heezzi]

Originally Posted by Fat Pat

hahhaahha!

you must think Tupac is still alive, huh?

Laugh if you want, why else people say older music sounds better? Not only is older music, good music, it isn't squashed.

The less ear fatigue you have, the more you will play that particular song you like. The more you play it around others, the more they hear it, they will like it and buy.. It's simple.

Originally Posted by Heezzi

Laugh if you want, why else people say older music sounds better? Not only is older music, good music, it isn't squashed.

The less ear fatigue you have, the more you will play that particular song you like. The more you play it around others, the more they hear it, they will like it and buy.. It's simple.

LOL I think you're making a stretch, but you're entitled to do so.

[Sirocco]

people that have no knowledge of audio (consumers for the most part) will never even think of anything ever mentioned in this thread

[Heezzi]

Originally Posted by no ssl yet

LOL I think you're making a stretch, but you're entitled to do so.

I know it's not the complete reason but it is part of it.


which is why I said it's subconsious.

[defjamm]

Originally Posted by Sirocco

people that have no knowledge of audio (consumers for the most part) will never even think of anything ever mentioned in this thread

they will more care about the brand of the clothes, cars, alcohol etc used in the videos.

[BezowinZ]

Anyone listen to this on vinyl? I haven't listened in a while, but I remember liking the sound.

Go play the murder was the case soundtrack next to Chronic 2001 and tell me which sounds better.

[t.dizzle]

Rap music...? Dynamics....? Are you f'in kidding me!?!?!?

This is an insanely dumb thread.

[khameln]

Originally Posted by Heezzi

The less ear fatigue you have, the more you will play that particular song you like. The more you play it around others, the more they hear it, they will like it and buy.. It's simple.

I was going to make a new thread about why this is completely untrue, but since it fits I'll just posted here...

The guitar is a great instrument. Somewhere along the line someone decided that it would be cool to crank amps to the point that the natural tone of the electric guitar starts to distort. Because of the rebellious nature of the social climate at the time, people decided that this horrible-sounding mangling of the guitar sound was actually GOOD and a pleasing thing, and ever since we've seen distorted guitars in rock music for decades.

Now, the sound of a distorted guitar is NOT a good sound, it's not an ear-pleasing thing... It's totally ear-fatiguiging next to the sound of the clean guitar itself.

Why is it that we can hear rock recordings with distorted guitars and say they sound great? Because people's brains and ears adjusted to the sound until it became normal, and then they began to actually expect it, look forward to it, and appreciate it.

Does it ruin the true tone of the guitar? Yes. Does it matter? Nope, not really, because that's what the style has become.

So I think it's a fallacy to say that distortion = lower sales... In the same way, people have come to accept the modern distorted Hip-Hop sound as "loud" and "banging", and they seem to actually expect it, rather than to be dismayed by a less-than-pristine mastering job.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

[Mudnoc]

Originally Posted by khameln

I was going to make a new thread about why this is completely untrue, but since it fits I'll just posted here...

The guitar is a great instrument. Somewhere along the line someone decided that it would be cool to crank amps to the point that the natural tone of the electric guitar starts to distort. Because of the rebellious nature of the social climate at the time, people decided that this horrible-sounding mangling of the guitar sound was actually GOOD and a pleasing thing, and ever since we've seen distorted guitars in rock music for decades.

Now, the sound of a distorted guitar is NOT a good sound, it's not an ear-pleasing thing... It's totally ear-fatiguiging next to the sound of the clean guitar itself.

Why is it that we can hear rock recordings with distorted guitars and say they sound great? Because people's brains and ears adjusted to the sound until it became normal, and then they began to actually expect it, look forward to it, and appreciate it.

Does it ruin the true tone of the guitar? Yes. Does it matter? Nope, not really, because that's what the style has become.

So I think it's a fallacy to say that distortion = lower sales... In the same way, people have come to accept the modern distorted Hip-Hop sound as "loud" and "banging", and they seem to actually expect it, rather than to be dismayed by a less-than-pristine mastering job.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

Just wanted to say....BRILLIANT analogy

[beat you down]

Originally Posted by khameln

I was going to make a new thread about why this is completely untrue, but since it fits I'll just posted here...

The guitar is a great instrument. Somewhere along the line someone decided that it would be cool to crank amps to the point that the natural tone of the electric guitar starts to distort. Because of the rebellious nature of the social climate at the time, people decided that this horrible-sounding mangling of the guitar sound was actually GOOD and a pleasing thing, and ever since we've seen distorted guitars in rock music for decades.

Now, the sound of a distorted guitar is NOT a good sound, it's not an ear-pleasing thing... It's totally ear-fatiguiging next to the sound of the clean guitar itself.

Why is it that we can hear rock recordings with distorted guitars and say they sound great? Because people's brains and ears adjusted to the sound until it became normal, and then they began to actually expect it, look forward to it, and appreciate it.

Does it ruin the true tone of the guitar? Yes. Does it matter? Nope, not really, because that's what the style has become.

So I think it's a fallacy to say that distortion = lower sales... In the same way, people have come to accept the modern distorted Hip-Hop sound as "loud" and "banging", and they seem to actually expect it, rather than to be dismayed by a less-than-pristine mastering job.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

imo you'r comparing apples to oranges.
distorting a certain instrument in the mix is not the same as distorting the total mix.

[khameln]

Well it's not *exactly* the same, but distorted guitars are the *foundation* for a lot of rock music and thus the core of the sound. My point was in regards to what Heezzi said; I was using it as an example to show that, what bothers a sonic purist can actually be something that the public in general can become used to and just accept or even start to like, however destructive it is to the true audio quality. Thus, it doesn't make sense to say that the extent of distortion heard on a Dre-camp album should necessarily negatively influence sales in some subconscious way.

[Alex Niedt]

I think the album still sounds good even being as loud as it is, b/c the arrangements and mixing are both very good. What ruins hip-hop mastering is awful mixes and arrangements being brought up to the same level.

[coolout]

We all should admit that the average listener (especially of pop music) has very little critical thinking as far as sound quality.

What's "banging" to them is mostly based on marketing, promotion, and the herd mentality.

I personally don't think chronic 2001 sounds distorted at all.

The chronic 2001 instrumentals is one of the CDs I always use as a reference along with Tribe's midnight murauders. I taken those cds in various studios, mastering houses and clubs. I've found the mix simple enough and clear enough to gauge how a system really sounds.

The beginning of the overly limited/digital clipping loudness wars to me started with the first destiny's child album. As a club DJ that was the first album I noticed that clearly had high-pitched digital distortion from limiting AND no one seemed to care. It has almost become a signature of pop music, with the second 50 cent, black eyed peas' breakthrough album, and most of Timbo's newer work having the same crappy (IMHO) sound.

[Heezzi]

Originally Posted by khameln

I was going to make a new thread about why this is completely untrue, but since it fits I'll just posted here...

The guitar is a great instrument. Somewhere along the line someone decided that it would be cool to crank amps to the point that the natural tone of the electric guitar starts to distort. Because of the rebellious nature of the social climate at the time, people decided that this horrible-sounding mangling of the guitar sound was actually GOOD and a pleasing thing, and ever since we've seen distorted guitars in rock music for decades.

Now, the sound of a distorted guitar is NOT a good sound, it's not an ear-pleasing thing... It's totally ear-fatiguiging next to the sound of the clean guitar itself.

Why is it that we can hear rock recordings with distorted guitars and say they sound great? Because people's brains and ears adjusted to the sound until it became normal, and then they began to actually expect it, look forward to it, and appreciate it.

Does it ruin the true tone of the guitar? Yes. Does it matter? Nope, not really, because that's what the style has become.

So I think it's a fallacy to say that distortion = lower sales... In the same way, people have come to accept the modern distorted Hip-Hop sound as "loud" and "banging", and they seem to actually expect it, rather than to be dismayed by a less-than-pristine mastering job.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

I wasn't refering to distortion guitars. I am refering to distorted masters. Square Wave mastered songs do not sound good.

[J Twin]

When you brickwall a song up to -.5 with little dynamics, it does add to the monotony of a track, which might contribute to a decline in sales, but really, where is my motivation to buy an album that sounds identical to 50 other albums out and that I can hear for free 10-25 times a day on the radio and MTV? Today's mixing and mastering is definitely part of the problem, but it's the smaller part to a much larger issue: homogeny in music.

[Eklect]

As much as i am not a fan of bad engineering... i did like Chronic 2k1. But personally it doesnt matter, I have mixed tons of rap acts live and all they say is make my stuff loud. they dont even care about quality. until artists have respect for what we do for them, this vicious cycle will never break. If artists would say, ok man i trust you then we could change the way people hear music, and bring the ENTIRE music game back down to a level where music is amazing sounding!

But thats just me

[khameln]

Originally Posted by Heezzi

I wasn't refering to distortion guitars. I am refering to distorted masters. Square Wave mastered songs do not sound good.

Neither does a distorted guitar. My point was that, you've just learned to accept the guitar.

Honestly, the extent of distortion in a rock song is far more noticeable to the average person than that of the Chronic or some other album like that, and would likely be more disturbing to someone that wasn't used to it.

As unhappy as it may be sonically, you've got to face the reality that the average person has actually come to expect and like this sound in big-budget Hip-Hop.