Having 3 different engineers mix the SAME song?

[J-Traxx The Don]

What's up everyone. I've been producing a local group for the past 2 years, in the past several months, they've been building connections with various DJ's around Georgia; so it'll be nothing to get our single spinning in the clubs, and on radio.

Now, we just need it mixed. I'm a perfectionist; a bit obbsessive, so I want it at the best quality. I'm always reading on forums of how people think the ____ on so and so's song wasn't compressed or eq or enough, or perhaps was processed TOO MUCH. So, what I want to do is bring the song to two mixing engineers, have them do their thing, then me myself (the 3rd engineer) listen to them back and forth, and find a "happy medium".

By doing this, the mix would be flawless.....right? What are your guys opinions on this? Is this a good idea? Excuse me for my ignorance, I've just never had anyone touch my mixes besides myself prior to this. Do mix engineers even send the Pro Tools session back with their adjustments, or do they just send you a single .wav file?

Peace,
J

[filterayok]

flawless to who? i guess it would be flawless to you, and if your the producer, i guess thats all that matters...

i dont know if this is the best idea, but if you DID wanna do it that way just tell the engineers that you'll pay em x amount of dollars, but you want the mixes kept in the box, and you want bounced stems of vocals, drums, synths, etc...

that way if you like the vocal sound on one, you'll have the acapella, and you can put it over the instrumental of version "2"... now that definately doesnt mean thats gonna make for a great mix, but i guess TECHNICALLY speaking and with a little tweaking, you could make an okay mix

[Ken Lewis]

I think if i understand you correctly, you want someone to mix it and send you back the PT session so you can load it onto your own PT rig and tweek it?

Well, what if they are using different plugins that you dont have? What if they have more DSP than you? What if a million variables that will cause that scenario not to work.

I think your better off investing in 1 guy or girl you trust to mix it, and working back and forth with them on changes until you have the mix you want. Or just mix it yourself from scratch until you get it right.

The stems idea is actually a pretty good one, but if you do go that route, make sure the mix engineer knows they need to provide you with multiple mix stems. I dont provide my clients with stems and if they want them i charge more. I provide my clients with Main, Instrumental, TV, and Acapella. And a clean version if its not a crazy editing job or if they do the edits themselves. But not stems.

Mixing and matching stems from different engineers mixes might be interesting or it could be an utter disasterous nightmare. there's one way to find out.

[ryst]

Have one person mix it. But also realize that being a perfectionist can destroy a mix. One thing I have learned is that a mix is never finished. There could always be more to tweak. But you have to realize that there is a line that shouldn't be crossed and just let it be and be happy with it. That is, of course, easy if you have a good mixing engineer instead of a bad one.

I just got done mixing a track for a client on Sunday. It only took 6 hours. I could have done more. I could have eq'ed every drum track to oblivion, compressed all 28 vox tracks perfectly and gated all the noise out if I wanted to. Would that make a difference? Sure, but the client loved the mix and when it get's professionally mastered it will sound great. We decided to let it go because we thought the mix was sounding like a record anyway and we didn't want to over do anything that wasn't necessary.

To me, mixing is a lot like writing music. When I write a song, I usually go with my first instincts and they almost always turn out to be the best ones. With mixing, it's the same thing. I follow my first thoughts and ideas and 99% of the time it works. But I make sure i don't tweak it to death. Being a perfectionist is good. But also know when to just let it go.

[TonyBelmont]

It sounds like a lot of time and aggravation...

Just find one great engineer, and keep things as simple as possible.

[psycho_monkey]

sounds like an absolute nightmare if you ask me - find one guy you trust and just use them.

You're not going to please everyone, so you might as well just please yourself - if it sounds good to you, it's done. doing what you suggest is a recipe for a mix taking a month.

[AlexLakis]

Indeed, this will be a nightmare for everyone involved. It will become a labor of torture for the engineers, and the mix will suffer.

My advice would be to let it go a little. I've had "perfectionists" RUIN entire projects before. Now, when somebody tells me they're a "perfectionist," I make sure I charge them by the hour, and collect ALL the money up front.

Find an engineer whose work you like and let them do their thing. And remember: just because something is "perfect" for you, doesn't mean it's "perfect" for the rest of the world.

DO NOT get an engineer to mix it and then take it home and mess with it. YOU WILL F*CK IT UP, I don't care how good you are. A mix is about vision, not about perfection. Again: Have someone else mix it and be done with it, or do it all yourself.

Alternatively, you could fly out to Los Angeles and get about 20 USC grads to mix it for free and pick the one you like best.

[DivineMusic]

J-traxx, what it do family...
you already know bundy and myself should be mixing the song so just x those other guys out and link up wit your fam

[e-cue]

Originally Posted by J-Traxx The Don

By doing this, the mix would be flawless.....right?
J

No.

Originally Posted by J-Traxx The Don

What are your guys opinions on this?
J

This is a bad idea, and just doesn't work the way it seems it would. Sooo many people these days don't seem to get this extremely obvious point- mixing is a symbiant artform. One thing affects the next. It's the same reason "solo mixing" doesn't work. If you like the drums on one mix, and the vocals on another, and everything else on another, and you try importing those into one master salad session, everything's probably going to be fighting for space. Too many cooks.

Could you seen Pablo Picasso and Salvador Dali both working on the same painting?

Seriously, how often have you seen "Mixed by EngineerX and EngineerY" on a song you thought was mixed well?

Originally Posted by J-Traxx The Don

Is this a good idea?
J

No.

Originally Posted by J-Traxx The Don

Do mix engineers even send the Pro Tools session back with their adjustments, or do they just send you a single .wav file?

Peace,
J

I'll assume you are just talking about itb mixing only.

Because I've had to deal with this so much in the past (and even recently with a radio single I'm getting screwed out of credit on for a mix I, to quote the A&R "Saved the day on"), these days I only send out stems. Too many people took advantage of the situation, and I don't want anyone messing with my mix. If someone wants a change, fine- we'll do it, but I'm not going to let someone screw up my mix and plaster my name on it as the mixer, or take my mix, turn the strings up .5 db in the bridge and claim they mixed the song. And don't get me started on the 5.1 thing.

The respect for the engineer in my circles is fading.







All that said and done, I believe your issue is a lack or maybe fear of direction. I can do a "hardcore grimey east coast mix" or a "poppy top 40 rap more radio friendly mix" on the same song. One engineer, two (or more) versions. If you are decisive and know what you want, you just need one talented engineer. If you look at the album credits of songs you think were mixed well and fit your style, it'd be a safer bet that that mixer should be able to give you want you want/need. I think it's ******** to hire an engineer that's know for a trashy lofi sound, and forcing/expecting him/her to give you a soft and pretty homogenized mix.

Being a perfectionist is fine and daddy in my book if you are getting things done. Being an "I dunno, let's try and see" guy can be frustrating and is a focuskiller if you go too far. How many producers does it take to change a lightbulb?

Best of luck with your project.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by e-cue

How many producers does it take to change a lightbulb?

(I can't resist...)

Hmm, I dunno.....what do you think?

(and in this case, we need 3 different engineers to try their lightbulbs in the socket whilst our producer tries to combine the coil from one with the casing from another and the glass from the third).

[filterayok]

i disagree that, this idea is DOOMED from the start...


agree that theres a good chance it WONT work, but if dude has the time and money, he might as well try it... worst case scenerio just pick the better of two mixes...

just cuz someones a "mix" engineer doesn't mean theyre gonna interpret the song properly....

i've seen producers prefer "throw the faders up" mixes by assistants to two-day tony masarati mixes... no lie, and anyone who thinks this is impossible is just being ignorant..

[MarkusColeman]

Originally Posted by e-cue

And don't get me started on the 5.1 thing.

yup, 7.1 sounds much better

Originally Posted by e-cue

All that said and done, I believe your issue is a lack or maybe fear of direction. I can do a "hardcore grimey east coast mix" or a "poppy top 40 rap more radio friendly mix" on the same song. One engineer, two (or more) versions. If you are decisive and know what you want, you just need one talented engineer. If you look at the album credits of songs you think were mixed well and fit your style, it'd be a safer bet that that mixer should be able to give you want you want/need. I think it's ******** to hire an engineer that's know for a trashy lofi sound, and forcing/expecting him/her to give you a soft and pretty homogenized mix.

I agree 100%. thats like having 10 people in your room, every single one telling you at the same time what to change about the track to make it a "hit".
who you gonna trust? and WHAT do you want to base your decisions on? you will most probably trust the person, who´s work you know to sound the way you would like YOUR tracks to sound, right? so why not hire HIM in the first place and go back and forth specifying the adjustments to make the SONG the best sounding SONG it can be?

Originally Posted by e-cue

Being a perfectionist is fine and daddy in my book if you are getting things done. Being an "I dunno, let's try and see" guy can be frustrating and is a focuskiller if you go too far.

a REAL perfectionist is (most of the times) PERFECTLY prepared.
he has his vision, his PERFECTLY set up tools at hand and a PERFECTLY prepared/motivated team/engineer.

I´ve seen horses puke in front of a saloon and I´ve seen REAL perfectionists smash out a Top10 album in an hour.

it all depends on the chemistry and the PERFECTLY prepared vision.

all the other guys fall into the "I dunno, let´s try and see" category......not understanding their own vision, but assuming someone else´s vision won´t satisfy them anyway.

it is somewhat similar to pro sports: you are an NBA player and the mixing engineer is the NFL guy. its both pro sports yes, both team sports but two completly different disciplines.

become a master of your own vision first. I bet many of the guys on this site are skilled enough to understand it and manifest it through a mix.
its not a service, its an artform.

Originally Posted by e-cue

How many producers does it take to change a lightbulb?

now thats an easy one:
the producer sits on the couch, but you need two interns in the room.
one intern changes the bulb and the other one dims the light so that it won´t disturb the sexy.

[DivineMusic]

Originally Posted by e-cue

I'll assume you are just talking about itb mixing only.

Because I've had to deal with this so much in the past (and even recently with a radio single I'm getting screwed out of credit on for a mix I, to quote the A&R "Saved the day on"), these days I only send out stems. Too many people took advantage of the situation, and I don't want anyone messing with my mix. If someone wants a change, fine- we'll do it, but I'm not going to let someone screw up my mix and plaster my name on it as the mixer, or take my mix, turn the strings up .5 db in the bridge and claim they mixed the song. And don't get me started on the 5.1 thing

damn i feel the same way man. i've had ppl ask for a copy of the session file so they could save the settings as presets... i'm like "you know its never gonna be the same for every song".. but they don't care
as of late i've really started pissing ppl off when they send me a pro tools file i consolidate everything and mix it in nuendo 3... when they ask for a copy of the session file i'll send it but they can't open it unless they have access to nuendo, then they better hope they have the plugins used :D

i'm no longer ever giving session files. if i do, i'm gonna zero out all settings. i hate
ppl that wanna turn something up or down or change 1-2 settings and take credit for something.. thats a fuc*ed up feeling... not to mention mixing the song on a friend rate vs a indie label rate... i've been fuc*ed 1 to many times and its not gonna happen again

[e-cue]

Originally Posted by DivineMusic

but they don't care
as of late i've really started pissing ppl off when they send me a pro tools file i consolidate everything and mix it in nuendo 3... when they ask for a copy of the session file i'll send it but they can't open it unless they have access to nuendo, then they better hope they have the plugins used :D

This is one of the great advantages of outboard gear... It's sortah like having an ilok for your mix...

[woomanmoomin]

Sorta coming to this late, but I guess you and every engineer out there is going to be limited (as much as empowered) by the selection of available gear. You are going to need a serious arsenal of gear to combine all the best of what those other folks do, plus you're going to need to know exactly what they were doing with their gear. I say, find one person whose work you like and go with that.

Anyway, combine two different approaches and maybe all you'll get is something mediocre.

[Igotsoul4u]

A better approach would be to find something that you like the sound of and send it to whom ever mixed it. The whole 2 engineers thing is kind of pointless. I normally do not send the protools files until after mastering is complete and the album is out. I do not appreciate people going behind my back and making idiotic changes like boosting the kik 10db and then slapping my name on the mix.

[AnAverageJoe]

Originally Posted by DivineMusic

J-traxx, what it do family...
you already know bundy and myself should be mixing the song so just x those other guys out and link up wit your fam

Yea I agree!!!!! Go For It J...

[Heezzi]

Just so you know, that's not really J-Traxx..

[parkay909]

On a-list major label stuff I've seen, if they think the album is big they will pay 3 people to do mixes and the option they choose will also get a point off the album. If they have the money to do it that way they often will.

Honestly a lot of stuff I engineered that was "mixed" by someone higher up the food chain sounded a lot like my roughs from the 2-track...

One thing I learned early on from a late and very prominent new york engineer was that you should allways zero out everything after you do your rough mixes. Don't consolidate, leave your edits up so they can be tweezezd but clear all your plugs and zero the faders! You allways want the producer to have "demo-itis" where in the final mix they ae just trying to re-create your rough. I think I just went off on a tangent...