Consoles

[Stitch333]

I just got back from a mix session the other day in a big console room. The session went great, mixes sounded fat and polished and both the client and I are very satisfied with the product. About a week before the session, a producer friend of mine and I got into an arguement about consoles... his arguement: that the console imparts too much color and controls the flexibility of the mix. His solution: ITB summed with a passive summing mixer and switching pres for makeup and color on the out2 of the sum. My arguement: Total coloring is good, especially when the color/console has a hit making track record. Its the transformers (not to mention eqs) on every channel and the summing bus that imparts the qualities that passive summing cant compete with. My solution: tracking and pre-production can be done anywhere but when its time to mix the big records, shell out the bucks (or find a friend who is a studio manager) and mix on a big console...what do you think?

[jlotto]

thats what it is. consoles and hardware give u that. Some good mixes are being done ITB everyday, but the budget notwithstanding, i'd pick SSL console everytime.

Still not sure about the summing boxes yet. I havent heard one that made a significant enough difference to the ITB mix that warranted the purchase and I've tried a few.

[t.dizzle]

My observations -

It's way easier to get separation and dimension on the SSL as opposed to ITB. I think that it has just as much to do with the eq's and inserts as anything. That being said, mixing ITB can be really good if you have the patience and ear.

Everyone thinks that working in the digi/DAW realm is easier than with analog - and it is until it's time to mix.

As far as I can tell, summing boxes (the current lineup anyway) are a waste of time and money.

[Ken Lewis]

Originally Posted by t.dizzle

As far as I can tell, summing boxes (the current lineup anyway) are a waste of time and money.

Well, i have to disagree there. Mixing thru Summing boxes sounds to me like mixing on a console again. I've done a ton of large console mixing, a ton of ITB mixing and have been mixing thru 24 channels of summing for almost 2 years now and i LOVE it. I hear a very significant difference in my mixes, and it helps that i get to patch in all my cool analog outboard.

As far as the first issue raised by this thread, man i dont know how many times i've heard inexperienced producers say "yeah we need to mix this on an SSL", and its never followed up by "Man we better make sure we have a mix engineer who knows what he's doing". Put an amatuer mixer on an SSL and your gonna get an amatuer mix.

[t.dizzle]

Originally Posted by Ken Lewis

Well, i have to disagree there. Mixing thru Summing boxes sounds to me like mixing on a console again. I've done a ton of large console mixing, a ton of ITB mixing and have been mixing thru 24 channels of summing for almost 2 years now and i LOVE it. I hear a very significant difference in my mixes, and it helps that i get to patch in all my cool analog outboard.

I was referring to the standard 8 channel boxes. I could see where 24 channels of summing would make a noticeable difference... I have been thinking about buying a TL M4, a GS3K, or something like that with 24 channels because it seems like it would help with the dimension/separation thing.

What are you using, if I may ask...and what are the differences that you're hearing?

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by Stitch333

My solution: tracking and pre-production can be done anywhere but when its time to mix the big records, shell out the bucks (or find a friend who is a studio manager) and mix on a big console...what do you think?

Its really the talent, ears and experience of the driver that counts and brings the sound together.

Just mixing on different large consoles alone takes a bit of know how based on the sonic quirks of each console. Mixing on an SSL is different than mixing on a Neve VR as well as an 8078, 8068 or API.

And lastly not all "professional rooms" sound good just because they have a large console, big speakers and outboard gear. Lately i've been mixing out of one here in the city and i am shocked how bad the acoustics are. Its definitely more about the looks.

But i do know hit records were made here so you just have to adjust and get the job done.

[GYMusic]

"I won't tell you what I do. You wouldn't believe it anyway." - 2006 GY

[Stitch333]

To be fair I dont have the mix time in on summing boxes to make a serious comparison but I have worked in a lot of different rooms and brands of consoles. Two tricks Ive found help adjust very quickly to any room are my favorite headphones and my favorite reference CD (both of which Ive heard and used on countless systems for many years) which makes most of my mixes translate really well.

I personally dont like SSLs. I think thats why you need all the outboard to make your work sound good whereas with API, the 80xx neves and Trident A-range seem to have their own quality of sound that doesnt really need as much 'propping up' with outboard like an SSL. I just try and remember when I see the plaques in a shitty sounding room that the producer/engineer probably had an unlimited budget at dreamhire...

But with summing boxes, it becomes a question of passive vs. active: I like the idea of being able to insert whatever flavor of gain make up on the sum with passive but do the neve/dangerous/etc really do anything that spectacular? Does anyone have A/B experience with mixes on a sumbox system and on a big console?

[khameln]

Originally Posted by t.dizzle

My observations -

It's way easier to get separation and dimension on the SSL as opposed to ITB. I think that it has just as much to do with the eq's and inserts as anything.

I agree about the SSL EQ's... They really do have a way of seperating things and giving them distinct shape. Of course, that strength/sound is why some people dislike them as well.. Funny how one mans lemon is another's lemonade.

[t.dizzle]

Originally Posted by Stitch333

I personally dont like SSLs. I think thats why you need all the outboard to make your work sound good whereas with API, the 80xx neves and Trident A-range seem to have their own quality of sound that doesnt really need as much 'propping up' with outboard like an SSL.

Try and tell that to Andy Wallace, aka Mr. Hardly N.E. Outboard.

[Methlab]

one of my boys best sounding mixes this year was for Victory. He did it ITB and summed it with the Chandler Summing box. Wow, that mix had some energy to it that I have never heard before. Since then, they have gotten an SSL with hit songs in it's history, but have yet to capture the magic of that chandler summer. The engineer wants the Chandler back and to go ITB again.

[Stitch333]

Originally Posted by t.dizzle

Try and tell that to Andy Wallace, aka Mr. Hardly N.E. Outboard.

If you compress the shit out of everything like Mr. Wallace, its not really about console summing anymore for sonics, its the makeup on the compressors. I dig the SSL bus comps, they make the console useful (Im still looking for an original G384) but the bus and 2mix comps I had on the A-range mix the other day were barely touched and the mix came out fat and bumpin but then again maybe because I know that particular board really well. Everytime I work on an SSL, I wind up crushing the bus comp to make the mix move. Goes without sayin tho that consoles are like high-end cars...everyones got their preference but they all are pretty fly in their own right...

Those chandler mini-mixers look like a funky-ass WWII tank...no comments on passive mixers tho? Hey Ken, what kinda summing system do you use? Id dig being able to get a real quality product without having to book a room everytime it was time to mix...

[Ken Lewis]

I'd bet the magic was not in the difference between the Chandler and the SSL as much as the guy mixing. I dont know how anyone can say they dont like the sound of an SSL. Saying that is like denying that you like almost anything on the radio for the last 10 years. there maybe engineers (Andy Wallace, and almost all of the super top mixers on earth) that the SSL feels like an extenstion of their brain, where others might feel much more comfortable ITB.

I love mixing on SSL's but i feel just as comfortable mixing thru summing boxes (i have 24 channels of summing and i love it). I am very good at mixing in the box, but definitely prefer getting it partially into the analog world.

By the way T Dizzle & Stitch, my summing is 16 channels of SPL Mix Dream. the Mix Dream has an expander input. Into the expander input i feed the stereo output of my API 8200A, which is an 8 channel line mixer, with volume, pan, and insert. So in total, 24 channels. I would agree that given the choice between 8 channels of summing and staying ITB your better off ITB, but most summing boxes i've seen are at least 16. I loved the sound of 16 so much that i expanded to 24, which i like even better. All Apogee convertors D/A. my equipment list for my studio is here

<A href="http://www.protoolsmixing.com/gear-list.html">Ken's Toys</A>

And while i'm at it, theres definitely no 1 or 2 things that make an SSL great. its the sum of all parts. Its having a 15 foot long console in front of you to start, which is always a rush. Its about grabbing faders, and turning knobs. Its about having an amazing channel compressor on every channel. and amazing EQ on every channel. a whole lot of flexibility. lots of efx sends. great signal path, great master section. and hopefully someone who knows how to pilot the thing sitting behind it.

Just like with summing boxes, there's alot of different kinds with different features. Even the Mix Dream can sound ten different ways depending on how you use it.

Everyone has their own mixing style. Stich crushes the SSL bus. I dont use it at all unless i'm mixing rock, then its any range of crushing to a light touch to none. Whatever gives your ears the end result they are looking for is what works best. Even when i'm mixing on SSL, i still often use a TON of plugins as well.

[filterayok]

if you can admit that a great mix CAN be done ITB, shouldn't everyone at least be ATTEMPTING to learn to do it.. for the sake of time, flexability, money, and precision??

plus in the hiphop/Rnb genre, your dealing with so many digital/low quality/distorted sounds, that what the hell is an ssl gonna really do for you???

i work in an ssl room every single day----it makes a great elbow rest

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by Methlab

one of my boys best sounding mixes this year was for Victory. He did it ITB and summed it with the Chandler Summing box. Wow, that mix had some energy to it that I have never heard before. Since then, they have gotten an SSL with hit songs in it's history, but have yet to capture the magic of that chandler summer. The engineer wants the Chandler back and to go ITB again.

That's where the experience comes in. I've heard and remixed shitty sounding mixes on an SSL's that were done on SSL's in the first place(to the surprise of the clients that had a bad SSL taste in their mouth). You have to understand the strong and weakpoints of the console.

Personally i am not a big proponent of summing boxes myself(I have owned Dangerous,Vac rac, Amek summing system and Folcrom with different mic pres). To my ears they tend to "lay things back" too much. And without the proper routing needed to bring the "rush" back it feels like a compromise IMO. Of the summing mixers that i did try the Chandler was probably my favorite just for the sound it could give to everything. I always felt it be a good effect box to run drums through that were tracked in not the greatest conditions. Also it would be a nice box to run effects back on.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by Stitch333

but then again maybe because I know that particular board really well.

This is the key. Is what you know and feel comfortable with.

I know its heresy around here but i've never liked mixing on API consoles. I always feel restricted by the lack of routing and the EQ's. Also everything has a sound that you have to fight to take out sometimes. To be honest i can say the same things about Neve VR's but in a different way.

And someone can say the same out of SSL's.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by filterayok

plus in the hiphop/Rnb genre, your dealing with so many digital/low quality/distorted sounds, that what the hell is an ssl gonna really do for you???

Would you say the same things to Spike Stent or Alan Moulder/Trent Reznor?

They all mix songs with lots of electronic sounds and samples and their stuff sounds killer if you ask me.

I guess cause its hiphiop/R&B right?

What do they need good sonics for right?

They can't tell the difference correct?

[filterayok]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

They can't tell the difference correct?

thats absolutely correct


theyre gonna do things the way they wanna do it, but at the end of the day, with a top notch mix engineer, NO they ABSOLUTELY CANT tell the difference and niether can you


and stop making it sound like i'm bashing the genre

i mentioned the genre cuz thats the NAME OF tHE FORUM WE'RE IN, so right back at ya!

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by filterayok

thats absolutely correct

If this is the case than why have large mixing consoles at all? Because its cool to have something big in the studio that eats a ton of electricity that you can show off to the clients?

I work on both formats and my clients can easily hear it when its shown to them. But can they afford to book a room with a large format mixing console these days? Most can't. The ones that can get so worried about being able to do recalls since they will be making changes down the line(remixes with different rappers/singers) and such that they sacrifice the sonics based on convenience. The clients that are more independent take their time and are willing to sacrifice the ease of recall to give them a better sound. As the engineer you have to be able to make both work.

And yeah i take exception to the rap/R&b remark because i've never heard you say that in the other "rock" forumns. If you did you have everybody jump down your throat.

If its rap/R&B/rock/pop/dance/jazz all in my opinion benefit sonically when mixed on an analog console.

[filterayok]

[quote=thethrillfactor;1180834]If this is the case than why have large mixing consoles at all? Because its cool to have something big in the studio that eats a ton of electricity that you can show off to the clients?
QUOTE]

no joke, that's exactly what was told to me by the studio owners when i asked the same question


[quote=thethrillfactor;1180834]And yeah i take exception to the rap/R&b remark because i've never heard you say that in the other "rock" forumns. If you did you have everybody jump down your throat.QUOTE]

i'm never in the rock forums, mostly cuz i hate most rock nowadays, and they're even WORSE when it comes to studio gear "hocus pocus"

[Ken Lewis]

I think this comparison between mixing on an SSL and mixing with Summing is a bit skewed.

The money it costs to mix on an SSL can be upwards of $3,000 a day. an average room goes between $1,000 and $2,000, not including the engineer. So mixing an entire album in an SSL room will cost you about the same money as setting up a really kick ass summing system with some great outboard which you can use on the next 100 mixes. If your a mixer hired to mix Super Artist A, then yes, take them to a big expensive room so they feel important, and so you know they wont say "Well, i dont like the mix because he mixed it ITB", and quite frankly so you know your in a great room. If its not Super Artist A, or you dont have a GREAT spot of your own to mix in, find a room suitable to your budget, or build one.

If money was absolutely no object, i'd have an SSL 9000 in my multi million dollar control room with a mountain of outboard gear. you cant compare a million plus dollars worth of gear to $100,000K worth of gear, though i think to my ears summing boxes are the closet to a large console i've ever heard.

Obvious, except for the very few projects anymore, money is definitely an object. Plus i like having my own studio, my own home base of operations. I like not having to suck up to studio managers and get treated like shit by studio managers. I like not having to call and find out the room i need and love is booked indefinitely. I like not going to The Hit Factory only to have a completely incompetent assistant who's out of the room 90% of the time. You want a vibe kill, try having to go find your assistant every time you need something done. Plus mixing is alot slower on a large console, for better or worse.

Furthermore, things such as recallability play a factor. An mix done on an SSL, you have to recall in the same room or work off digital stems to recall ITB. and a recall of 1 song can be a half a day event. In my room with my summing boxes, and all my outboard, i can recall and tweek an entire album in one day. As a producer, working with summing boxes gives me so much more creative power and flexibility!!! I can bounce back and forth between songs quickly, easily, and exactly. I am not waiting around for 2 hours for the assistant to recall a mix just so i can work on it. by then the vibe is blown, the ideas are gone, and i know i'll be at the studio indefinitely just to work on a few songs. With ITB and Summing you can build mixes over time, which is what i do now on almost everything. So often i'll work on 3 or 4 mixes a day. just a bit here, a bit there, but not try to finish anything. sometimes i just knuckle down and work on a single mix, but knowing i have the options to work how i want is GREAT.

I've done hundreds of mixes on SSL's and NEVE's, Focusrite, API, Capricorn, Oxford, just about every large format console ever built. and while i will gladly mix on any of them now any time, i dont miss them, and i dont feel hamstrung by my summing boxes. What little i might lose in pure sonics over an SSL 9K, i make up for ten fold in work flow and creativity. Same with tape machines. Sure tape sounds great on some things, but man if i never saw another Studer again i wont cry. The abilities that DAW editing and creating has given me increase my creativity ten fold at least.

By the way, i've done mixes that have won Grammy's all ITB, and i've won grammy's for large format digital mixes and large format analog mixes. I know both sides VERY well. You can do a hell of a mix ITB, but i personally think my summing setup is very noticably better than staying all ITB. I still use a crapload of plugins, but i get to use all my great analog gear collected over the years. No ITB EQ is gonna match a Sontec mastering EQ. Anyone who looks at summing boxes purely as listen thru devices is missing the point. anyone who's completely sold on ITB is missing the point, but hey, whatever works for you. It all works for me.

[filterayok]

Originally Posted by Ken Lewis

You can do a hell of a mix ITB, but i personally think my summing setup is very noticably better than staying all ITB. Anyone who looks at summing boxes purely as listen thru devices is missing the point. anyone who's completely sold on ITB is missing the point,

agree with everything, but if you can NOT say with CERTAINTY that you can tell when somethings mixed ITB, then how can you not be sold on it??

maybe with an A/B comparison, you can say i like the summed version better, but even YOU would have to admit that it would be an OPINION, and MANY PROFESSIONALS would have a hard time telling the difference...

lets put it this way: other then the SELF SATISFACTION YOU GET FROM SUMMING, do you think the reactions that you get from your mixes would be any different?

could you not get someone to say "GREAT MIX" without a summing box?

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by filterayok

maybe with an A/B comparison, you can say i like the summed version better, but even YOU would have to admit that it would be an OPINION, and MANY PROFESSIONALS would have a hard time telling the difference...

Yeah but as long as you can tell that is what really counts.

We don't get hired to mix for other professionals.

We get hired to help the songs translate in the best way.

If you have a firm idea how than you will go in that direction. If that means a Neve console and the sonics it brings than you rent a Neve room. If its an SSL its an SSL. If you think you can make the song work ITB than you do that. When its put in your lap you choose. Nowadays because of the budgets your hands get tied and your forced to go in directions and make compromises that you have to feel comfortable making.

To some people it isn't a big deal. Heck its all gonna end up on an MP3 anyway and if people can't hear the differences and they don't care than why should i? Or the other argument is its gonna get the piss smashed out of it so why should bust i my ass caring about the dynamics?

[filterayok]

[quote=thethrillfactor;1180887]Yeah but as long as you can tell that is what really counts.

[quote]

this is a noble thaught but dangerous in the minds of people who may find themselves completely submersed in focusing on tiny details that only THEY can barely hear....

have you ever made a subtle change on an eq and thaught "oh, thaaats better" only to realize its in bypass?? thats the point i'm making... you can convince yourself your hearing things that aint there

[thethrillfactor]

this is a noble thaught but dangerous in the minds of people who may find themselves completely submersed in focusing on tiny details that only THEY can barely hear....

Hmmm...i think you lost me on this one.

But i think its those things that you can only barely hear that seperates you from someone else. Real or imagined. Heck if we could all hear exactly the same things we wouldn't all be working.

And the music would be much more boring than it is now.

you can convince yourself your hearing things that aint there

I guess.

But i try to only focus on the things that are there.

Its enough work dealing with that alone.

[filterayok]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

Hmmm...i think you lost me on this one.

But i think its those things that you can only barely hear that seperates you from someone else.

tru, i guess its like me slaving over vocal rides, at the end of the day, does that make anyone say "great song"??? do they even notice i dipped the second syllable of the word "crazy?"

i guess its the culmination of attention to all the different little details that make the whole... maybe its just a matter of what details are important to you....

its just as a producer, and a writer, and a mixer, by the time the song gets to the final mix, i've already been so tedious with every aspect of the song, that the "summing box" doesn't matter to me... i guess maybe thats what mixers are for, to slave over the details to try to bring it to hopefully the next level