You Can't Add What's Not There

[khameln]

Alright, so call me slow, but I've finally realized something that should have been obvious after hours of listening:

It's about time we kill the "premastered sounds/samples" trend.

I used to be in the "just fatten it up or layer it" club, but over the last month or so I really took the time to listen carefully to a lot of the top commercial recordings, like blueprint and The Doctor's Advocate.

I'm amazed.

Hypersonic? Until recently the "run it through a preamp" argument sounded great to me. Until I realized that the sounds are just "thin" in a way that has nothing to do with warmth. You can't take strings that are thin and recorded to sound lifeless and thin and make them fat and have character. What you get is, warm "thin" strings.

It's like vocals, if your vocal recording or the mic sucks and the vocals come in thin and lifeless, you can run it through all kinds of preamps and compressors and whatever you want... And it's going to sound like a warm, crunchy "sucky" vocal.

I went through all of hypersonic again and almost all of it sounds this way. It's like they're just supposed to "sit" right with no processing... But in recording the sounds this way they totally killed the life of the sound.

Does modernbeats sample their sounds from already mixed/mastered hip-hop records? Because I never really realized the sounds sound THAT thin. My god. It's a nightmare, if you take a snare that's already been mixed/mastered in a hip-hop record, it already is tinted way too much toward the highs... Mix it in a new song, and have it get mastered *again* as part of that now song, and now it's even thinner.

And I am saying this about the 20 or so samples I picked as being the best out of hundreds. That's scary.

What happens if you layer them? You get a layered "thin" snare. It sounds like mush. If you layer mush on top of mush, it doesn't become thick, full, and punchy. It becomes a mess like dry mashed potatoes. Then you put it though a preamp/comp and it sounds like compressed, warmer dry mashed potatoes.

So to everybody saying "just layer snares", forget that. I'll take some snares that sound fat and alive and heavy by themselves any day to start with, and *maybe* layer them after that.

Anyway, I need help... I feel like I need to start over. I take back everything I said so far. Not everybody is going to notice this, but I definitely see it now after a lot of listening. And I see how thin the snares sound in my tracks. I went back through that whole Gearslutz thread of 1-shots... And 99% of those sound terrible to me as well. No "weight". I'd like to sample from vinyl, but I don't have the right outboard to process it with. Are there some disks floating around?

Wondering if other people are noticing this kind of thing.

[Im That Guy]

IMO Great Snares are what seperate the dudes who have "some sounds they use" and guys who"have sounds that mke them identifible" like Dre, as soon as I hear a Dre snare you know it on the first hit. I been likin Polows snares too.

Sampeling from most modern producers is not gonna work. I would recomend going back to vinal, some soul records with great live drums, grab those and process them in you own way. I know you said yo dont have the right equipment to process it but even Battery 3 will do wonders. I dont know what your working with tho. Man maybe its worth bookin a day at a studio with a good eq (1081, GML) and work a lil there. Just remember (And I think you definitly get the idea of this) compressors make thigs smaller not bigger, so leave em out.

Ill bet your supprised after a lil practice what you come up with.

MH

[khameln]

I think need to sell and save, because the problem is I don't have any Neve/Pultec/Distressor to process them with. But while I'm working to get to that point, ther've got to be some snares and hi-hats around that have already been recorded that way, but haven't been jacked from a premastered record?

And are there any sample libs for instruments that are specifically full? I'm afraid that even if I get rich and grab Vienna or something, they way it's been mic'ed is goung to be 'clean and classical'. I would kill for some sound libraries or VSTs sampled with vintage mics/boards and such.

I'm surprised how much money I've wasted up till this point... Maybe we should start a business for this if there's not one out there already :D

[Methlab]

Originally Posted by Im That Guy

Just remember (And I think you definitly get the idea of this) compressors make thigs smaller not bigger, so leave em out.



MH

Man, sooo true.

But to add, I have been doing more dance tracks then hip hop lately...but the same thing applies.

Some guys like to take an attack from a vinyl kick and layer it over a big 808. I had been trying this one lately, and it works...take a kick..like a 909 or whatever you like. Then mult it to another track. High pass that one up to around 800 or so...then compress the hell out of it and distort it too. It will knock so hard that your head will hurt....then blend it back into the main kick.

This seems to mesh a lot better then using a seperate sample...it's also one of the few times I use heavy compression on sampled drums

[defjamm]

Originally Posted by Im That Guy

Just remember (And I think you definitly get the idea of this) compressors make thigs smaller not bigger, so leave em out.

with preprocessed already bangin drums, yes. but not if you have raw acoustic drums that sound like acoustic drums (thin compared to "hiphop-drums", no bounce, long tails). with the right compression, eq and a nice gate you can make nice "hiphop-drums" out of ordinary acoustic drums.

i also hated compression on drums until i started to make my own out of acoustic drums. still experimenting with it.

[filterayok]

... it doesn't matter where you get your snare from, if the tambre, tuning, and effects are perfect for the song, then its gonna sound like a million bucks--- it's also about how the snare interacts with the shaker, percussion, vocal---its a sound CHOICE thing, not a sound quality thing....

[verb1]

Originally Posted by filterayok

its a sound CHOICE thing, not a sound quality thing....

Exactly. One of my personal classics, "Enta Da Stage," had some gritty ass samples, but it sounds great.

[Sirocco]

i think sampletank is even worse. its extremely thin and lifeless. even putting thru a pre/exciter is still sounds ....stagnant

[azwun25]

Originally Posted by J Twin

Exactly. One of my personal classics, "Enta Da Stage," had some gritty ass samples, but it sounds great.

i hear that! i always loved the grittiness of the Boot Camp records

[Im That Guy]

Originally Posted by filterayok

... it doesn't matter where you get your snare from, if the tambre, tuning, and effects are perfect for the song, then its gonna sound like a million bucks--- it's also about how the snare interacts with the shaker, percussion, vocal---its a sound CHOICE thing, not a sound quality thing....

This is also VERY VERY true. I recently came up with a way to easily adution every kick I have in my libriay quickly and effecianlty while makin tracks. It was supprising to me i how good some sounds I had formerly thought were bunk sounded when used in the right context.

MH

[khameln]

That's actually very, very untrue... Any good producer knows that the way an instrument SOUNDS in hiphop can make or break the track, no matter what part it's playing. I don't care how many alternative uses you can find, if you have an entire selection of weak snares with nothing strong enough to carry tracks, you are at a big, big disadvantage. If you *choose* to use snares that are weaker to play different parts at times, fine, but a strong selection of drums with weight, body, and clarity to them is an essential part of any major producer's arsenal.

Take a minute and listen to an album like Blueprint or Doctor's Advocate and check out the snares... The quality is very consistent, even with all of the different types of drums. Hiphop is just as much about sound as composition, and that means that the *quality* of your sounds is extremely important.

That's why every major producer spends time investing in sound and equipment (just ask Tony, that's why he's in business), because they know that in hip-hop sound and feeling is the foundation that the rest of everything you do is built on top of.

It's like kind of a like a job interview... You may be qualified and a good fit for the job, but if you go in with your hair messed up and clothes tattered and a bad attitude, it can very well ruin your interview. Get dressed correctly and present yourself well, and that can make the difference between success and failure. Sound is the same way!

[Im That Guy]

Originally Posted by khameln

That's actually very, very untrue... Any good producer knows that the way an instrument SOUNDS in hiphop can make or break the track, no matter what part it's playing.

First.. No Shit. I in no way mean that that you could use the library of Greaslutz One Shots and just throw all the snare in battery or some shit and switch em out till u find the one that make u DRE? Come the **** on.

If U read back I said orginally that good snare seperate the men from the Boys in this game. I NEVER said anything about using crappy sounds.. Only that context will sometimes supprise you.

Yea the way a sound sounds matters but GOOD isnt maditiory for a hit, Kanye gets by with "Different"

MH

[khameln]

Right, but I've spent time listening to his drums. I even reviewed Late Registration again the other day before I posted this thread... And although they may be different they still sound *good* (with the exception of the one on the Game's album, and I think the sound of that track takes away from the music as others have noted).

[Im That Guy]

Originally Posted by khameln

Right, but I've spent time listening to his drums. I even reviewed Late Registration again the other day before I posted this thread... And although they may be different they still sound *good* (with the exception of the one on the Game's album, and I think the sound of that track takes away from the music as others have noted).

IMO Kanye stepped his sounds up on Late reg, I was more reffrerin to College Dropout.

MH

But Aaaahhh Young Grasshopper, the reason we layer is specifically TO add what's not there.

Now do you know what to add?

Do you know what's missing?

[upscaps]

people will live & die with softsynths for various reasons. thats not the point.

But u r trying to capture with softsynths/samplers what folks capture using mpc3000/2000 motifs, other hardware units, consoles, outboard.

Plus dont under-estimate the importance of a good engineer. There is no sound in any module that's gonna sound like a finished product on a dre, or whoever, record. may be same sound but it wont come across the same. How many of u "mult" and layer ur kiks, snares, and basses? common practice in the hip hop game, especially for weak sounds.

Been a workin pro for about 7 years. Got my first official credit on bad boy back then. what i still do is after a project is mixed and printed i grab the individual drum hits. I was lucky a few years back to be able to work some 2" tape/neve console projects and got some really good drums sampled.

For me sound is more important than speed. My drum library in an mpc3000 is all about sound. I tried battery and still use it when i'm on the road with same drum samples but its not going thru the analog outs of an mpc3000 and its sounds a little lighter. i can fix that with eq real quick though because i have a great starting point on the sound.

if u wanna go the sofsynth route u gotta have a plan to get where u want to get to. My homie uses a separate laptop as one big synth workstation and runs everything thru the console and a few BA neve preamps & a fatso before it hits the HD rig.

[upscaps]

Originally Posted by Im That Guy

IMO Kanye stepped his sounds up on Late reg, I was more reffrerin to College Dropout.

MH

an experienced co-producer/engineer and many live instruments will do that

[amp]

Originally Posted by Im That Guy

First.. No Shit. I in no way mean that that you could use the library of Greaslutz One Shots and just throw all the snare in battery or some shit and switch em out till u find the one that make u DRE? Come the **** on.

If U read back I said orginally that good snare seperate the men from the Boys in this game. I NEVER said anything about using crappy sounds.. Only that context will sometimes supprise you.

Yea the way a sound sounds matters but GOOD isnt maditiory for a hit, Kanye gets by with "Different"

MH

if the snares' frequencies were alike, you could do just that couldnt you?

[Im That Guy]

Originally Posted by amp

if the snares' frequencies were alike, you could do just that couldnt you?

I dont understand what you mean by this? Your sayin if then gearslutz snare had the same frequesnceys as Dres then you could put them in battery and be Dre?

MH

[khameln]

Originally Posted by no ssl yet

But Aaaahhh Young Grasshopper, the reason we layer is specifically TO add what's not there.

Now do you know what to add?

Do you know what's missing?

Yeah let me back up a bit... I'm not saying never layer. What I'm saying though, is that a good snare that stands on it's own is priceless... Then if you want to layer for specific elements and qualities, go ahead. But if you layer mush with mush, you get more mush. Warm it up and you get warm mush, but it's still mush... Transient designer and you get mush with a 'point' on it. But start with some good solid, clear yet gritty, heavy snares, and layer those, and you can end up with a masterpiece :D

So it's not that I was bad at layering snares, but it's just the overall weight and definition of the snares I was layering (from sources like Modernbeats and Banginbeats and whatnot) wasn't good at all. After making 'Joy Ride' I started to see how one solid snare can replace 4 bad ones put together. So now I realize that quality is > quantity, and it's changing my outlook on what sounds to use.

Originally Posted by khameln

Yeah let me back up a bit... I'm not saying never layer. What I'm saying though, is that a good snare that stands on it's own is priceless... Then if you want to layer for specific elements and qualities, go ahead. But if you layer mush with mush, you get more mush. Warm it up and you get warm mush, but it's still mush... Transient designer and you get mush with a 'point' on it. But start with some good solid, clear yet gritty, heavy snares, and layer those, and you can end up with a masterpiece :D

So it's not that I was bad at layering snares, but it's just the overall weight and definition of the snares I was layering (from sources like Modernbeats and Banginbeats and whatnot) wasn't good at all. After making 'Joy Ride' I started to see how one solid snare can replace 4 bad ones put together. So now I realize that quality is > quantity, and it's changing my outlook on what sounds to use.

I can't really say much, I NEVER EVER EVER EVER bought sounds from anyone claiming to sell hip hop kits.


To me getting "prepared" hip hop kits and expecting them to sound like what I'm looking for, is about as real as expecting a Roland phantom strat to sound like a real strat.

It won't.

A hip hop producer without sounds is like a basketball player who can't dribble, shoot, dunk, play Defense, or pass.

[filterayok]

Originally Posted by khameln

That's actually very, very untrue... Any good producer knows that the way an instrument SOUNDS in hiphop can make or break the track, no matter what part it's playing. I don't care how many alternative uses you can find, if you have an entire selection of weak snares with nothing strong enough to carry tracks, you are at a big, big disadvantage. If you *choose* to use snares that are weaker to play different parts at times, fine, but a strong selection of drums with weight, body, and clarity to them is an essential part of any major producer's arsenal.

Take a minute and listen to an album like Blueprint or Doctor's Advocate and check out the snares... The quality is very consistent, even with all of the different types of drums. Hiphop is just as much about sound as composition, and that means that the *quality* of your sounds is extremely important.

That's why every major producer spends time investing in sound and equipment (just ask Tony, that's why he's in business), because they know that in hip-hop sound and feeling is the foundation that the rest of everything you do is built on top of.

It's like kind of a like a job interview... You may be qualified and a good fit for the job, but if you go in with your hair messed up and clothes tattered and a bad attitude, it can very well ruin your interview. Get dressed correctly and present yourself well, and that can make the difference between success and failure. Sound is the same way!

---first off. you wouldn't even care what dre's drums were like if he didn't CHOOSE the right sounds for his trax----they could be the fattest, most quality sounds, but if they aint pitched right, and are inappropriate for the track, then everybody would be liike "i aint feelin that snare."

fact is, you could do major label level work with a strong ear for the right sounds, and very little equipment.. ANYBODY could go around finding strong samples and tracking em through expensive pre-amps... but the tru producer can make a phat ass track using ANYTHING cuz his ear will make every element he throws down compliment eachother...

crappy sounds that all WORK together, will kik the shit out of a bunch of "quality samples" thrown down randomly anyday...

[verb1]

Originally Posted by no ssl yet

A hip hop producer without sounds is like a basketball player who can't dribble, shoot, dunk, play Defense, or pass.

So, basically, you're calling khameln a Knicks draft pick? Naw, ha, let me stop.

[Im That Guy]

Originally Posted by filterayok

crappy sounds that all WORK together, will kik the shit out of a bunch of "quality samples" thrown down randomly anyday...

Yep Yep! Context is a Ma****er

MH

If I were starting over and I had 0 good drum sounds, I would befriend an engineer that has worked on some hip hop records.

If you don't know any engineers, get close to someone at a record pool or join one.

Get all the 12" dubs that you can with Hip Hop/Rnb instrumentals etc.. on them and sample for about a year straight. (Don't strictly stick to modern records go back to the 70's, 80's, 90's etc...).

Start snatching all the drums that you can from EVERY genre.

[deuc647]

I think tracking has a lot to do with it, sometimes im in a rush to track and i really dont pay attention to the levels and when i go back to listen, i get so frusturated cuz the kick is weak or the snare is not as hard hittin as i would like it to be, EQ is like alcohol, use too much and ur gonna be fuked up, use in moderation and well...u know and any sample is usable, just not usable for everything.

[filterayok]

Originally Posted by deuc647

, EQ is like alcohol, use too much and ur gonna be fuked up, use in moderation and well...

no such thing as "too much eq"---only BAD eq'ing----- the trained ear can eq a shitty sound and make it very usable---this may take more than 1 eq

[Alex Niedt]

Originally Posted by filterayok

crappy sounds that all WORK together, will kik the shit out of a bunch of "quality samples" thrown down randomly anyday...

This is how I feel about Pharrell's stuff. Tons of basically crappy sounds that work together and sound cool. And I don't mean that in an insulting way...

[upscaps]

Originally Posted by Alex Niedt

This is how I feel about Pharrell's stuff. Tons of basically crappy sounds that work together and sound cool. And I don't mean that in an insulting way...

but his crappy sounds are thick phat warm and hit hard.

Thats what i believe he trying to state in the thread. he wants a good starting point.

u gotta work to get that or sample ur drums from records/cds of joints thats out like every other working producer has been doin for years. Good starting point then to do ur mults, layers, etc.

[khameln]

Originally Posted by upscaps

but his crappy sounds are thick phat warm and hit hard.

Thats what i believe he trying to state in the thread. he wants a good starting point.

Thank you... The neptunes, kanye, they all have non-standard sounds, but their sounds are very *solid*. And solid in a way that you don't get just by taking a Modernbeats snare and putting through a pultec and a distressor.

You can be creative enough to make the best use of terrible sounds and get an ok result, but why make that a necessity? Why settle for that as a starting place? If you're that creative, your tracks will sound even BETTER when you start with a solid collection of them to pick from. You shouldn't be limited/forced into having to change your style because the sounds are so bad that you can't make a regular Boom! Bap! sound like it means something.

I'm creative with my tracks, but I also want to have the *option* of making a track with just a 1 kick, a snare, a bongo, and a crusty flute and having it bang just as hard as anything else. That's a way of expressing your creativity as well, without having to "cover"..

Not to mention that, this industry is competitive enough that your music needs all the help it can get; If your sounds are correct to begin with, you can turn your creativity into an *added advantage*, instead of just a roundabout way of getting your stuff on par with somebody else who has decent drums/synths.

Dealing with real rappers or modern R&B artists, you can be as creative as you want, but if your sound is weak and you are missing that industry "thump/bang", 9 times out of ten you will get passed on. Obviously, even if it wanted to give his current sounds up and use banginbeats, Kanye reached a point where he has a little more breating room. But don't forget the tracks on "The Blueprint" he did in order to get there. It's important to present your ideas in the best possible light.