Negative Space & Drums

[DanGo]

Hi Tchad,

I'll add to the quickly-mounting praise and thanks and say that I, too, consider you to be one of the most original and consistently-inspiring engineers out there. Thank you for hopping onto the forum and answering some of our questions!

To me, your drum sounds are the most remarkable elements in your mixes because unlike most drum sounds out there (which typically have some sort of room "signature"), yours frequently sound like they're popping out of negative space (a vacuum). When I listen to songs you've engineered, I often visualize a black space with drums and percussion instruments popping out of the dark into a spotlight with each transient hit and fading equally quickly.

I gather from this forum and from articles I've read that the Sans Amp is a big part of this effect, but it also seems there's minimal bleed between drums in the kit. Do you eschew room mikes? Are you gating the overheads a lot? And also gating individual drums a lot?

Partly, I ask this since often I find that distortion and overdrive add a certain "sustain" to drums, but your drums have a crispness and spaciousness to them.

Again, thanks for your answers and for all your mixing work--there's a lot I've learned simply by listening to your work!

--Dan Goldberg
partner/composer
Apples & Oranges Music - Production Music Company

[tchadb]

Originally Posted by DanGo

Hi Tchad,

I'll add to the quickly-mounting praise and thanks and say that I, too, consider you to be one of the most original and consistently-inspiring engineers out there. Thank you for hopping onto the forum and answering some of our questions!

To me, your drum sounds are the most remarkable elements in your mixes because unlike most drum sounds out there (which typically have some sort of room "signature"), yours frequently sound like they're popping out of negative space (a vacuum). When I listen to songs you've engineered, I often visualize a black space with drums and percussion instruments popping out of the dark into a spotlight with each transient hit and fading equally quickly.

I gather from this forum and from articles I've read that the Sans Amp is a big part of this effect, but it also seems there's minimal bleed between drums in the kit. Do you eschew room mikes? Are you gating the overheads a lot? And also gating individual drums a lot?

Partly, I ask this since often I find that distortion and overdrive add a certain "sustain" to drums, but your drums have a crispness and spaciousness to them.

Again, thanks for your answers and for all your mixing work--there's a lot I've learned simply by listening to your work!

--Dan Goldberg
partner/composer
Apples & Oranges Music - Production Music Company

Thanks for all that.
Don't use gates on the drums but sometimes on the Sans Amp or heavy mono mic compress. The length from distortion is what I like and what's replaced room or reverb for me, just to be different.
I almost always record drums in a very small room of some sort mic'd very closely. Typically 1-2".
I use an old set of hi hats that aren't crazy loud which cuts back on that age old leakage problem. (Rarely use a bottom snare mic so I need to be able to boost the hi's on the top mic.)

[DanGo]

Thanks for answering my question(s), Tchad. Now, I'm sure, listening to your work will reveal some different things to me...

What appears to be your underlying philosophy of replacing expected elements with unexpected ones is inspiring: distortion tail instead of room/reverb on the drums is a prime example.

That said, I imagine some of what you do involves a diplomatic approach with the artists, bands, producers, etc. you work with. Do you find that at this point, the producers, bands and artists you work with are self-selecting (they understand what you do and they come to you for that)? And even with somebody who "gets" your approach, do you find you get a better response from your clients if you present them with the finished mix, as opposed to letting them hear all the unusual elements in the mix solo (or out of context)?

The short version of that question is, how do you sell your very creative approach to engineering and mixing to clients?

Do you need to sell your approach?

Best,

Dan

[jbuntz]

What types of hats have you had good luck with? I always have trouble with controlling the hats. I usually try to baffle them.

[tchadb]

Originally Posted by DanGo

Thanks for answering my question(s), Tchad. Now, I'm sure, listening to your work will reveal some different things to me...

What appears to be your underlying philosophy of replacing expected elements with unexpected ones is inspiring: distortion tail instead of room/reverb on the drums is a prime example.

That said, I imagine some of what you do involves a diplomatic approach with the artists, bands, producers, etc. you work with. Do you find that at this point, the producers, bands and artists you work with are self-selecting (they understand what you do and they come to you for that)? And even with somebody who "gets" your approach, do you find you get a better response from your clients if you present them with the finished mix, as opposed to letting them hear all the unusual elements in the mix solo (or out of context)?

The short version of that question is, how do you sell your very creative approach to engineering and mixing to clients?

Do you need to sell your approach?

Best,

Dan

I don't have a pitch except making sure they know what I have to offer and if that will be an asset to the music.
Most know what I do and come to me for that.
I prefer the artist to attend mixes. It frees me up to try and discard very quickly and, just to vibe on another person in the room. Seems more creative that way.

[outoftune]

Originally Posted by tchad blake

I almost always record drums in a very small room of some sort mic'd very closely. Typically 1-2".

what size of a room do you typically use? low ceilings or high ceilings? 1-2" mics on each drum + mono mic + anything else?

im looking for any general ideas or tips with doing drums in a small room. i just moved into a place with a small concrete basement and am gonna be doing some drums in there real soon.

[tchadb]

Originally Posted by jbuntz

What types of hats have you had good luck with? I always have trouble with controlling the hats. I usually try to baffle them.

My favs are a '60's pair of Zildjian 14" aquired from Greg Kipplinger. I also have some from cheap Chinese kits that are very dark and bend every time you hit them.

[Local 47]

Tchad,
I assume you rarely use drums room mics since you often record in small rooms?. Unless of course you open the door and record in the hallway?
Thx.
D.

[tchadb]

Originally Posted by Local 47

Tchad,
I assume you rarely use drums room mics since you often record in small rooms?. Unless of course you open the door and record in the hallway?
Thx.
D.

You got it.