Wide mixes

especht · 5th February 2007, 04:42 PM

Hi, Kevin. Thank you for taking our questions.

In an earlier post you said, "I can spend a number of hours experimenting with this even pushing the width of the mix beyond the normal L R plane."

Could you elaborate on this?

Kevin Killen · 7th February 2007, 03:54 AM

especht,

I may pick one or two elements and run it thru my Howard Hughes SRS spatial box. It was designed for cockpit voice recognition and it totally ****s with the phase. Sometimes I would put a number of effects in series, ultimately ending in the SRS and adjust the "width" control so that it appeared outside the speakers, to the left and right of the outermost edge of the speakers. Its certainly fun,not mono compatible and usually gives the artist a woody and the mastering engineers a feeling of naseau.

Don't try this if your project is going to vinyl....

In the DAW world, same principle, just try using the S1 image maker .

On headphones , its like someone is turning your brain inside out....

And put down that weed , when you do this, It may alter your life forever

KK

stevep · 7th February 2007, 05:04 AM

Quote:

I may pick one or two elements and run it thru my Howard Hughes SRS spatial box. It was designed for cockpit voice recognition and it totally ****s with the phase

Nice !!!! cant stop laughing,.... great post

thanks for sharing your experience with us

peace,

steve perkins

.

dokushoka · 7th February 2007, 05:06 AM

I had that Hughes box! It was so weird!

Shawn1272 · 7th February 2007, 09:32 AM

Can you tell us some more about this SRS spatial box? Sounds pretty sweet.

thanks.

seb37000 · 7th February 2007, 01:09 PM

Hello kevin,

Thanks for sharing all this !

Which elements of the mix do you find pushing the width works best on ?

Methlab · 7th February 2007, 04:22 PM

Kevin,

When you say 1 or 2 elements..what are you usually going with? Something like a pad or background vocal?

How much is too much when it comes to spreading things out like this in your experience?

Kevin Killen · 7th February 2007, 10:44 PM

SRS THREADS

Usually its either backgrounds or maybe just the effects i use on them, sometimes a volume swell, a weird percussion moment, just some "ear candy".

Shawn1272 · 8th February 2007, 09:00 AM

Kevin, thanks for the info. Are you using the SRS Labs MegaWide box? I'm curious what box you're actually using to get "outside the speakers".

shawn

Kevin Killen · 10th February 2007, 01:58 AM

Shawn

I am not using it this week as my current project is in the box. For that I use the Waves S1 Image maker.

I will pull the SRS out of its box next week to get the exact model numer.

Keep listening....

KK

Shawn1272 · 10th February 2007, 07:09 PM

Thanks Kevin.

themish · 12th February 2007, 04:06 AM

Hi kevin,

why can the hughes srs box not be used for tracks that will end up on vinyl? can the s1 be used for vinyl?

thanks,

h

Kevin Killen · 13th February 2007, 03:46 AM

themish,

Basically those boxes and software plug ins do alter the phase coherency of the stereo track. Trying to cut an acetate with such a significant phase anomaly would cause the cutting head to lift up during the mastering. It would mean a remix at the very least.

CD's are much more forgiving in terms of duplication.

Kevin

Fuel · 13th February 2007, 04:10 AM

Thanks again!!

Ecktronic · 13th February 2007, 03:28 PM

Hey Kevin,
Would it be normal to use a stereo expander on guitars alone? Its just that when listening to some CD's guitars sound alot wider than mine do.

Cheers,
Eck

Ecktronic · 13th February 2007, 06:33 PM

When listening to the band "Deftones" I notice that the guitars sound a bit wider compared to my mixes. Would using a stereo expander like "Waves Imager" on the guitars alone be a good idea to acheive a wider stereo spread? Or would this muck about with the phasing too much?

Cheers,
Eck

Kevin Killen · 14th February 2007, 03:36 AM

Ectronic,

Not to sound evasive, I guess one could but what the result would be is totally dependent on the input source and tha application itself.

Might be better off trying to discern what it is you like about the guitars you describe, tone, parts, position and see if you can come close to replicating them in your own music.

Kevin

Shawn1272 · 21st February 2007, 01:23 AM

Kevin, did you get a chance to pull out your SRS box yet? I'm dying to know what it is.

thanks,
shawn

Kevin Killen · 23rd February 2007, 02:43 AM

Shawn,

Not yet as that session got postponed, but i should be able to get it this weekend. keep bugging me, Iam happy to reveal whatever it is.

KK

Kevin Killen · 26th February 2007, 04:18 PM

okay its an SRS AK -100

kev

Kevin Killen · 26th February 2007, 04:25 PM

okay its an SRS AK -100

kev

Killahurts · 26th February 2007, 04:54 PM

Oh, how I loved that box! But like an idiot I sold it a few years ago...

At the time it came out, the other thing out there was the Bedini Audio Spacial environment (BASE). I liked the AK-100 better, and it was way cheaper. It has a sort of gritty warmth to it - and as was stated earlier, it's best used on elements, not an entire mix, IMO.

btw Kevin, this is my first post in your guest forum. Thank you Soooo much for doing this with us!

Tomer1 · 26th February 2007, 07:20 PM

It may seem out of place but to me it seems funny to use high end convertors and a million dollar console only to end up degrading the final signal with a 40$ unit

Whats the N:S ratio on that thing

Cymbals · 3rd March 2007, 07:59 PM

When doing the same thing in-box, using Waves s1, are you talking about the width control, or are you also adjusting symmetry control also? I'm just making sure I'm understanding you correctly. No flipping of tracks, and phase, then, right?

Kevin Killen · 3rd March 2007, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomer1

It may seem out of place but to me it seems funny to use high end convertors and a million dollar console only to end up degrading the final signal with a 40$ unit

Whats the N:S ratio on that thing

That is often the irony of mixing but you just have to use your ears to judge what is right for the mix. But probably no worse than the $35 foot pedal you use for the guitar or the $300 speakers you mix thru !

No idea ... sorry

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5th February 2007, 04:42 PM	#1
especht Gear Head Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 45	Wide mixes Hi, Kevin. Thank you for taking our questions. In an earlier post you said, "I can spend a number of hours experimenting with this even pushing the width of the mix beyond the normal L R plane." Could you elaborate on this?

7th February 2007, 05:06 AM	#4
dokushoka Lives for gear Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: San Francisco / L.A. Posts: 1,082	I had that Hughes box! It was so weird! __________________ San Francisco based Mixing and Production http://www.sfrecording.com

7th February 2007, 09:32 AM	#5
Shawn1272 Gear maniac Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Seattle Posts: 174	Can you tell us some more about this SRS spatial box? Sounds pretty sweet. thanks. __________________ "I make hundreds of dollars a year doing this shit." www.myspace.com/theshza

8th February 2007, 09:00 AM	#9
Shawn1272 Gear maniac Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Seattle Posts: 174	Kevin, thanks for the info. Are you using the SRS Labs MegaWide box? I'm curious what box you're actually using to get "outside the speakers". shawn __________________ "I make hundreds of dollars a year doing this shit." www.myspace.com/theshza

7th February 2007, 03:54 AM	#2
Kevin Killen engineer / producer / mixer Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 312	especht, I may pick one or two elements and run it thru my Howard Hughes SRS spatial box. It was designed for cockpit voice recognition and it totally ****s with the phase. Sometimes I would put a number of effects in series, ultimately ending in the SRS and adjust the "width" control so that it appeared outside the speakers, to the left and right of the outermost edge of the speakers. Its certainly fun,not mono compatible and usually gives the artist a woody and the mastering engineers a feeling of naseau. Don't try this if your project is going to vinyl.... In the DAW world, same principle, just try using the S1 image maker . On headphones , its like someone is turning your brain inside out.... And put down that weed , when you do this, It may alter your life forever KK

7th February 2007, 01:09 PM	#6
seb37000 Gear addict Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: france Posts: 415	Hello kevin, Thanks for sharing all this ! Which elements of the mix do you find pushing the width works best on ?

7th February 2007, 04:22 PM	#7
Methlab Lives for gear Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Orlando Posts: 2,425	Kevin, When you say 1 or 2 elements..what are you usually going with? Something like a pad or background vocal? How much is too much when it comes to spreading things out like this in your experience?

7th February 2007, 10:44 PM	#8
Kevin Killen engineer / producer / mixer Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 312	SRS THREADS Usually its either backgrounds or maybe just the effects i use on them, sometimes a volume swell, a weird percussion moment, just some "ear candy".

10th February 2007, 01:58 AM	#10
Kevin Killen engineer / producer / mixer Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 312	Shawn I am not using it this week as my current project is in the box. For that I use the Waves S1 Image maker. I will pull the SRS out of its box next week to get the exact model numer. Keep listening.... KK

10th February 2007, 07:09 PM	#11
Shawn1272 Gear maniac Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Seattle Posts: 174	Thanks Kevin. __________________ "I make hundreds of dollars a year doing this shit." www.myspace.com/theshza

12th February 2007, 04:06 AM	#12
themish Gear interested Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 2	Hughes box Hi kevin, why can the hughes srs box not be used for tracks that will end up on vinyl? can the s1 be used for vinyl? thanks, h

13th February 2007, 03:46 AM	#13
Kevin Killen engineer / producer / mixer Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 312	themish, Basically those boxes and software plug ins do alter the phase coherency of the stereo track. Trying to cut an acetate with such a significant phase anomaly would cause the cutting head to lift up during the mastering. It would mean a remix at the very least. CD's are much more forgiving in terms of duplication. Kevin

13th February 2007, 04:10 AM	#14
Fuel Gear maniac Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 252	Thanks again!!

13th February 2007, 03:28 PM	#15
Ecktronic Gear addict Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Ayr, Scotland Posts: 331	Hey Kevin, Would it be normal to use a stereo expander on guitars alone? Its just that when listening to some CD's guitars sound alot wider than mine do. Cheers, Eck __________________ CRYSTAL MIXING and MASTERING MY BAND

13th February 2007, 06:33 PM	#16
Ecktronic Gear addict Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Ayr, Scotland Posts: 331	When listening to the band "Deftones" I notice that the guitars sound a bit wider compared to my mixes. Would using a stereo expander like "Waves Imager" on the guitars alone be a good idea to acheive a wider stereo spread? Or would this muck about with the phasing too much? Cheers, Eck __________________ CRYSTAL MIXING and MASTERING MY BAND

14th February 2007, 03:36 AM	#17
Kevin Killen engineer / producer / mixer Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 312	Ectronic, Not to sound evasive, I guess one could but what the result would be is totally dependent on the input source and tha application itself. Might be better off trying to discern what it is you like about the guitars you describe, tone, parts, position and see if you can come close to replicating them in your own music. Kevin

21st February 2007, 01:23 AM	#18
Shawn1272 Gear maniac Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Seattle Posts: 174	Kevin, did you get a chance to pull out your SRS box yet? I'm dying to know what it is. thanks, shawn __________________ "I make hundreds of dollars a year doing this shit." www.myspace.com/theshza

23rd February 2007, 02:43 AM	#19
Kevin Killen engineer / producer / mixer Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 312	Shawn, Not yet as that session got postponed, but i should be able to get it this weekend. keep bugging me, Iam happy to reveal whatever it is. KK

26th February 2007, 04:18 PM	#20
Kevin Killen engineer / producer / mixer Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 312	okay its an SRS AK -100 kev

26th February 2007, 04:25 PM	#21
Kevin Killen engineer / producer / mixer Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 312	okay its an SRS AK -100 kev

26th February 2007, 04:54 PM	#22
Killahurts Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: USA Posts: 1,310	Oh, how I loved that box! But like an idiot I sold it a few years ago... At the time it came out, the other thing out there was the Bedini Audio Spacial environment (BASE). I liked the AK-100 better, and it was way cheaper. It has a sort of gritty warmth to it - and as was stated earlier, it's best used on elements, not an entire mix, IMO. btw Kevin, this is my first post in your guest forum. Thank you Soooo much for doing this with us! __________________ 1310 is as good a number as any

26th February 2007, 07:20 PM	#23
Tomer1 Lives for gear Join Date: May 2006 Location: Haifa,Israel Posts: 505	It may seem out of place but to me it seems funny to use high end convertors and a million dollar console only to end up degrading the final signal with a 40$ unit Whats the N:S ratio on that thing __________________ http://www.myspace.com/tomervalve More Chi... Train Harder!

3rd March 2007, 07:59 PM	#24
Cymbals Gear Head Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 48	s1 When doing the same thing in-box, using Waves s1, are you talking about the width control, or are you also adjusting symmetry control also? I'm just making sure I'm understanding you correctly. No flipping of tracks, and phase, then, right?

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