Programmed drums help.

[TheReal7]

Since I am using an Mbox and and doing everything as far as instruments and such, I am programming my drums using high quality (dry) drum samples. I was wondering if anyone had some good tips on getting a room kit sound out of samples in PT? Basically a drum room simulator technique.

[jbuntz]

Dry drum samples with reverb don't sound like drum samples in a room. The best thing to do would be to mic a kit like you would if you were recording and make your own samples.

[TheReal7]

Originally posted by jbuntz
Dry drum samples with reverb don't sound like drum samples in a room. The best thing to do would be to mic a kit like you would if you were recording and make your own samples.

Ultimately, that is what I would do....but it isn't an option in my book. I was just wondering if there was a 'formula' for getting close to a room kit sound...via aux sends, delays and verbs.

[littledoodler]

altiverb

[picksail]

I created an amazing drum room using Altiverb. I chose the Lexicon PCM 70 Tiled Room preset. Followed by HP @ 300 HZ/LP at 5kHz both with 6 db slope. The space was manipulated using the Haas effect. Phony, but effective.

I recently, posted this very simple example of the Haas technique elsewhere on this forum:


Also, many times I introduce the Haas effect into almost everything I record. It works wonderfully on vocal tracks, as long as you ensure the source remains focused and with mono capabilities. It helps to create or simulate a more 'natural environment'. It can be used on multiple sources and helps to separate intruments without introducing false depth ie. reverb. And more importantly, no repeats.

My incredibly consice explanation of the Haas effect would be described as: Any delay between approximately 5-40ms.

1 ms=1 ft

Assuming the above equation is accurate, one could effectively simulate a room size of up to 40 ft without any echos.

This is the way I set it up (within ProTools):

1) Create a mono track (presumably vocal)
2) Create a stereo aux channel (set at Unity)
3) Assign the aux input to buss 1/2
4) Assign the aux output to Analog 1/2
5) Assign mono track to buss 1/2
6) Instantiate a stereo delay to the aux channel
7) Set the left side at 16 ms and the right side to 32 ms ( 100% wet, no feedback, depth, echo...nothing but delay in ms)
8) Adjust the track buss level/pan to taste

**This is a very simple example and not to be construed as the only way to apply this technique.

This also, works well with instruments panned hard with the delay panned to the opposite side.

I have actually, applied it to HH with a 10 ms delay. HH at 1 or 2 o'clock and delay panned hard left. Raising the level from infinity to the desired level. Just enough to where you hear it open up slightly on the left side. More or less just a perception of depth.

Give it a shot. Just remember to use this carefully and continue to check for phase coherency.

[Shan]

Originally posted by TheReal7
Since I am using an Mbox and and doing everything as far as instruments and such, I am programming my drums using high quality (dry) drum samples. I was wondering if anyone had some good tips on getting a room kit sound out of samples in PT? Basically a drum room simulator technique.

Check out BFD from Fxpansion I just did a country track using these because of the clients budget. Worked out great.

Picksail, I'm going to try that HASS technique. Thanks.

Shane

[TheReal7]

Thanks guys....some good ideas here. I will give this a try tonight. I was thinking aloing the delay lines already just needed some numbers

[Stick]

Check out the MIXtended Kits from Wizoo... comes with seperate Close Mic patch, Overheads patch, and Room patch for the same kit... sounds great, and you can mix the three patches for more or less room or whatever.

http://www.bigfishaudio.com/4DCGI/de...atsOn.html?424

[TheReal7]

Funny you mentioned Wizoo...I just d/l'ed their Platinum24 Acoustic Kit off of www.primesounds.com today. Really good samples.

[picksail]

If you want to hear an example of the aforementioned technique look here: Five Bucks Gets You Nowhere

I have decided that the hi-hat is bit too wide for this track, but this should provide a little more insight as to what can be accomplished.

[TheReal7]

Not bad....I like. My music is more heavy rock but I like what you've done. I will definately be having fun with these new samples and this technique.

Thanks.

[picksail]

This, as I mentioned, is just one of many songs, most of which are completely contrasting with the one posted.

The technique will work for practically, any application. Just remember not to abuse it or it can yield some very adverse artifacts - mostly, phase incoherency.

Good luck with it!!

P.S. Try it with a mono guitar track panned hard left. Then apply a delay of approx. 16 ms/LP @ 5kHz hard right. Very cool.

[djui5]

sound replacer is your friend

[Jose Mrochek]

Try using two overhead mics on your studio monitors. place them a few feet away just like you would with overheads, play the programmed drum sequence, crank up your monitors and then mix them in as if they were overheads. it helps alot with the depth issue.

[TheReal7]

Originally posted by Jose Mrochek
Try using two overhead mics on your studio monitors. place them a few feet away just like you would with overheads, play the programmed drum sequence, crank up your monitors and then mix them in as if they were overheads. it helps alot with the depth issue.

This is a great solution, unfortunately in my situation, I don't have a stereo pair of mics. I only have a Rode NT1 and a C1000.

[picksail]

If you want to discuss the potential of drum programming and not exclusively 'simulated room ambience' then this is a completely separate can o' worms.

Life became much different after SoundReplacer.

If you care to analyze the previously posted song, you will realize that it wasn't just the obvious drum hits that were replaced. Practically, everything apart from the guitars and bass were all replaced with something.

If you have any questions regarding any of the methods employed, I will be more than happy to answer.

[ProFool]

Originally posted by picksail
This also, works well with instruments panned hard with the delay panned to the opposite side.

I have actually, applied it to HH with a 10 ms delay. HH at 1 or 2 o'clock and delay panned hard left. Raising the level from infinity to the desired level. Just enough to where you hear it open up slightly on the left side. More or less just a perception of depth.

Is the kit visualized in audience position, isn't this a live album technique?
i mean in alot of live recordings you hear this, youre sure that its mixed in audience position but you still get the feel you're behind the kit.
thx

[picksail]

Precisely.

I have used it to manipulate the perceived placement of the kit. Whether, it is ridiculously wide or claustrophobicly ( don't think this is a word ) tight.

My initial intention was to alter the kit from an audience perspective, not the inverse. I, personally, am aversed to presenting a peice from the drummer's perspective. It doesn't sound right to me-for most applications, anyway.

I am not certain as to the origins of its' use, regarding the live performance question. I understand it as a formula and its' relation to time, electing to apply it in the most pragmatic way.

[ProFool]

thanks,
i will try it out on my next mix, il see if it suits the track
do you use a same kind of aproach on toms to?
Like a hard panned stereo delay with the haas effect, or panned to the oposite?thumbsup

[picksail]

Assuming these are sampled drums, let's take for granted that they are dry samples.

If I take, say, a 16" floor tom I might choose to pan it at approx. 8 o'clock. I will then apply the Haas to it with a stereo delay (L+R=10 ms) or two mono delays (L=10 ms and R=10ms). Then I would add a delay to the left side and possibly more to the right, just to capture some of the resonance that the tom would inherently produce.

At this point I would add a touch of reverb to the tom to place it 'properly' within relative proximity to the other drums. Just enough to simulate the distance from one tom to the other. The verb is used exclusively for separating the individual drum from each other, not as reverb is generally used.(This is not a blanket statement, just a generalization)

Remember that the point is to create a 'room sound', not to necessarily, overindulge in processing.

Repeat the process for the rest of the drums.

[Shan]

Originally posted by TheReal7
This is a great solution, unfortunately in my situation, I don't have a stereo pair of mics. I only have a Rode NT1 and a C1000.

How about renting a pair for a day? Shouldnt be that much. Just an idea.

Shane

[ProFool]

great, thanks picksail for the tip ill check it out

[picksail]

Keep me posted as to the outcome of your endeavors. I would love to hear samples!!

[TheReal7]

Originally posted by picksail
Keep me posted as to the outcome of your endeavors. I would love to hear samples!!

Fot sure....I will definately do that. thumbsup

[tee boy]

I often find it strange that people have this problem when using samples - how much hassel is it to record some nice room miked samples? I know it would cost you more than a sample CD, but why not book a session in a good drum room and record some samples? This way you not only get new, unused sounds but you also get the copyright on them - ie the right to use them how you feel fit, not how some sketchy license demands. Seriously, I got a quote from a guy (who i know is an awesome drummer and has an awesome room) to record several kicks, hats and snares, for 200 GBP. I said i wanted at least 30 of each in different velocities etc. If i need out board or a posh mic that a cheaper studio dont have, i could just rent something nice for the day!

Seriously, this is the way to go. But, if you cant be arsed and you like the sound, get 'Drumkit from Hell' it has both room and close miked samples.

[Curve Dominant]

The guy who used BFD on a clients record, you do know that is piracy right? Not that Im trying to start telling people how to run their business, but it seems many people make the mistake that its legal to use there samples on 'other peoples' tracks.

Technically speaking, this is correct.

There's a loophole, however: The band gives the guy who owns and used the loop a songwriting "credit." It doesn't have to be a piece of the $$, just his name listed on the liner notes.

I often find it strange that people have this problem when using samples - how much hassel is it to record some nice room miked samples? I know it would cost you more than a sample CD, but why not book a session in a good drum room and record some samples?

It might actually cost less than a sample CD to book a room, and that is certainly an option.

But it doesn't take into account a few things. It's not always practical on the fly. And that one kit in that one room will not satisfy the needs of every song one produces.

One of the things I personally like about having a large sample library of drum hits is the sheer variety of sounds, ambiences and velocities I can match to the vibe of the various songs I produce. Not just trap drum kit hits either, but all sorts of percussive sounds or loops that can be buried in a mix to enhance the overall texture of a track.

[Shan]

Originally posted by tee boy
PS The guy who used BFD on a clients record, you do know that is piracy right? Not that Im trying to start telling people how to run their business, but it seems many people make the mistake that its legal to use there samples on 'other peoples' tracks. Just figured you might want to know, considering the hard line many people take to piracy around these parts,

I did not know this! Can you explain further. BFD is a plug-in Drum machine like Dr. 008. It isnt a sample CD. So would my hardware drum machine be piracy? I'm gonna email Angus at Fxpansion and see whats up. If you can give me more details that would be great. Thanks.

Shane

[Curve Dominant]

BFD is a plug-in Drum machine like Dr. 008. It isnt a sample CD.

That's a COMPLETELY different story.

There should be zero piracy issues in that case.

[Jose Mrochek]

I have the Bob Clearmountain Drums 2 sample cd running on a akai sampler. The sounds are great. Just thought someone would like to know.

[picksail]

In my opinion, the Clearmountain samples are very good. I have, on occasion, even used the drum sample libraries included with SampleCell. Some of the stuff is surprisingly useful.

I do recall that all cymbals and HH used on the above posted song were from the Clearmountain Library.

I have plans of putting together a drum sample library. A drummer friend of mine, who also builds custom drums wants to create samples of his drums. I thought is was a great idea but added, 'Let's take it a step further and actually make them publicly available. This way you can produce a very viable drum sample library while endorsing your drum build quality as well.' Needless to say, he was convinced. As soon as time permits we will start micing these things up. I can't wait!!! Plus, I get a drum kit out of it Joy!!