Drum/Squish set-up

[Extreme Mixing]

Charles,

I set up the Drum/Squish signal path that you discribed in one of the threads. Just wanted to say that it works perfectly! I had messed with this months ago by duplicating and nudging tracks and found it to be a total waste of time. Your set up works pretty much like my old 160x set up from my analog days. It will now become part of my mix template.

Good one on you!

Steve

[Charles Dye]

Steve,

Thank you + you're very welcome. I'm glad I could help.

I recently got a session from an engineer in Nashville to mix and it had Drum/Squish, the Split 910 emulation, and Mutron-Tape, a tape based flanger, that were all plug-in setups from the HDL series. I thought it was cool that he was using them and mentioned it. He said actually he hadn't read HDL, but that David Thoener had given him the settings.

I thought that was really cool, 'cause that's exactly why I wanted to share what I was doing on PT. I didn't want others to waste time trying to solve the same problems all over again. And PT lent itself perfectly to this kind of whole hearted passing along of techniques, because settings + set-ups could be so easily demonstrated.

I've followed many of your posts on the DUC + know that you do a lot of PT mixing. Do you have any tricks you'd be willing to share with us here? It would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

[Extreme Mixing]

Charles,

I could do that.

One thing I learned from Mick Guzauski is to set up an FX trigger track on the lead vocals ( or anything else for that matter). I take the bottom send off the lead vocal track and send it at unity gain/post fader to a bus that I label Lead Vocal Trigger. I add a new mono Aux input, and set it's input to the Lead Vocal Trigger bus. I set its output to bus 31 and 32, so that it is lifted out of the stereo bus. That gives me 5 new sends off the lead vocal that are post fader, but can be ridden as a group, independant of the lead vocal fader. That way I can have drier verses and wetter choruses very quickly and easily. I can also EQ or Compress the trigger if I want. I send chorus and doubling effects off of the Vocal fader, and reverb and delay off of the trigger aux.

I have a mix layout that I import when I start to mix. It includes 9 FX and now the Squish/Drums bus set up, plus a stereo master fader. While all of the FX are subject to change, most stay pretty consistant; Long verb, short verb, chorus, Mod, delay, mod dealy, some real goofy stuff that I call "wild card". It saves a lot of time and I don't have to remember what's what from mix to mix, as far as the fx are concerned. It helps to walk the fine line between trying to develope new ideas, while not re-inventing the wheel every time i mix. I send to all of the FX in stereo, and some are quite stunning, giving me the option of dry on the left and reverb or chorus or delay on the right. That really helps to widen the spread of the mix, and to focus the exact position of elements in the mix.

Looking forward to hearing some tips from others.

Steve

[Shan]

'FX trigger track'

Great tip Steve. I just tried this. Tons of stuff I can do with this tip. Saves a ton of time also. Thanks.

Shane

[bing81]

Originally posted by Extreme Mixing
I set up the Drum/Squish signal path that you discribed in one of the threads. Just wanted to say that it works perfectly!

Link? Must have missed it and can't find it.?

Thanks.

[Shan]

Originally posted by bing81
Link? Must have missed it and can't find it.?

Thanks.

Right Here.

Shane

[schmeete]

For what its worth, I learned this parallel drum processing trick also from Charles, and in addition another tip from Jules I read here some time ago that I think is appropriate here.

It concerns distortion. I personaly feel there is nothing like "guitar amp distortion" on a kit to give it a real attitude in the digital domain (given appropriate music style). So I just want to add that alongside the squish bus I very often have a third distortion bus that I dose to taste. Its not just for the snare but I also find things like Amp Farm, Sans amp and even Lo-Fi can give you a wonderful creamy top end on cymbals.

Pete

[schmeete]

For what its worth, I learned this parallel drum processing trick also from Charles, and in addition another tip from Jules I read here some time ago that I think is appropriate here.

It concerns distortion. I personaly feel there is nothing like "guitar amp distortion" on a kit to give it a real attitude in the digital domain (given appropriate music style). So I just want to add that alongside the squish bus I very often have a third distortion bus that I dose to taste. Its not just for the snare but I also find things like Amp Farm, Sans amp and even Lo-Fi can give you a wonderful creamy top end on cymbals.

Peter

[Charles Dye]

Originally posted by schmeete
I personaly feel there is nothing like "guitar amp distortion" on a kit to give it a real attitude in the digital domain (given appropriate music style). So I just want to add that alongside the squish bus I very often have a third distortion bus that I dose to taste. Its not just for the snare but I also find things like Amp Farm, Sans amp and even Lo-Fi can give you a wonderful creamy top end on cymbals.

Peter,

Yes! I've been doing this as well recently, and I've also been getting some extremely cool Zepplin-esque room tones by using McDSP's Chrome Tone on just the the room mics. I posted how I set it up in this thread.

Could you please share more details about how you set-up Lo-Fi to get the creamy cymbals. I'd like to try it.

Thanks.

[Charles Dye]

Originally posted by Extreme Mixing
One thing I learned from Mick Guzauski is to set up an FX trigger track on the lead vocals ( or anything else for that matter)...

Steve,

Thank you very much for the great techniques. I especially like how you can treat the verb send fader (FX trigger) with different eq, comp + de-essing, especially tailored for the reverb + delay. That's cool.

I believe Bob Clearmountain does something similar (maybe Bruce Keen can confirm), but he sets up two FX triggers with the same input. He sets the first one up for the verse (and maybe Bsec) + the second for the Chorus, and switches between the two as well as riding it for verb swells. You could even keep the first one in for the Bsec + blend in a tad of the second one to give the Bsec a flavor of the Chorus FX.

For your effects I've got a few of questions:

• 1. What do you use for "chor" + what for "mod"? Mod + chor seem like the same thing to me, that's why I'm asking.
  2. What settings do you use on your mod delay? I don't use mod delays much, so I'm curious in what situations you use it.
  3. Can you share some examples of your wild card? I really like the sound of the idea, just curious what some of them might be.

Thanks!

[Extreme Mixing]

Originally posted by Charles Dye
Steve,

Thank you very much for the great techniques. I especially like how you can treat the verb send fader (FX trigger) with different eq, comp + de-essing, especially tailored for the reverb + delay. That's cool.

I believe Bob Clearmountain does something similar (maybe Bruce Keen can confirm), but he sets up two FX triggers with the same input. He sets the first one up for the verse (and maybe Bsec) + the second for the Chorus, and switches between the two as well as riding it for verb swells. You could even keep the first one in for the Bsec + blend in a tad of the second one to give the Bsec a flavor of the Chorus FX.

For your effects I've got a few of questions:

• 1. What do you use for "chor" + what for "mod"? Mod + chor seem like the same thing to me, that's why I'm asking.
  2. What settings do you use on your mod delay? I don't use mod delays much, so I'm curious in what situations you use it.
  3. Can you share some examples of your wild card? I really like the sound of the idea, just curious what some of them might be.

Thanks!

Charles,

I would be surprised if anyone would be interested in using my settings! They work for me, but i'm not sure about someone else.

For chorus I use the TC Plain Chorus or Roto Flanger both modified to taste. The Mod is the Waves Mondo Mod. I use them both or one at a time. I recorded Michael Thompson several years ago, and he had a HUGE rig! When I checked it out closer, i noticed that he had no fewer than 5 devices set for chorus. When I asked him why, he said "cause it sounds so great"! You know something, he's right. The more devices you have doing modulation the thicker and deeper it becomes. That doesn't mean I use a lot, but I do tend to spread it around to get more richness out of the effect. Both of these effects are true stereo, so If you send to the right side only the right side returns. If I send to both, I will probably lean one left and the other right. I may reverse it on the next element that gets the treatment. That gives a lot of variation in chorus sounds off of only 2 stereo sends.

For Delays I use the Waves Stereo Super Tap Delay with mod. The Max delay time is 2 seconds per side. I just looked at the one that's up on my mix and the depth is set to 0.2ms and the rate is 0.2hz. In real life we are always hearing doppler effects. Either the sound source is moving or our head is turning, or something else is happening. I'm just trying to emulate some that complexity with the delay modulation.

I also use a Pitch Blender delay. It has evolved over time, but it is some sort of band pass delay with most of the low end rolled off. It sounds very affected, but adds a subtle level of excitment at low levels and some real drama when used as an effect.

Pitch Blender is also the Wild Card. Right now, its set up as an auto wah effect with some delay. It's my way of emulating some of the analog wierdness of days gone by; like print through and crosstalk. Sometimes, I just want to raise the noise floor in a mix. Digital is way too clean. This effect gives me a source of "noise" that is related to the music, but not in a very "organized" way. It creates a sense of envelopement in the sonics of the mix. I think that's what some of the guys are doing with Amp Farm. Adding a little grit seems to bring out more detail in a strange way and makes the mixes carry more weight. Sometimes I add a low level loop, too. It can have the effect of sub dividing the beat or adding some grace notes to the kick and snare.

Or maybe I'm crazy...What do you think?

Steve

[Charles Dye]

Steve,

You're definitely not crazy in my book. Very cool things all of them. Thanks so much.

I especially like the stereo sends. I've always sent mono, essentially because I always used mono sends on SSL + Neve when mixing, but I think your reasoning for stereo sends is very solid. I will be trying it. Thanks.

The multiple choruses also sounds cool. I'm really big on MetaFlange. I also will be trying the doppler mod delay treatment. To be clear, that is a delay (like a 1/8 or 1/4 note) that has a doppler-esque modulation applied to it to add some outside world reality. Is that right?

The Wild Card is really interesting. Now I understand what the affect is and what it's purpose is. I'm curious what type of instruments or parts would you send to it? I like your approach of trying dirty up digital.

Again Steve, thank you very much for your generosity + taking the time to share your techniques with us.

[Extreme Mixing]

Hi Charles,

Looks like it's just you and I on this thread.

You should for sure check out the FX using stereo sends. It makes a huge difference when you can control which side they return on by using the pan control of the send. Here are the ones that are most discrete:

TC MegaReverb
RealVerb
TC Chorus
Modo Mod
MetaFlanger
SuperTap Delay
Pitch Blender and Time Blender

I use them as Multi Channel TDM plug ins, not multi mono. It makes a huge difference in the level of complexity that you can achieve when your reverbs and FX aren't just a big stereo-mono return. You can pan a guitar hard left and then choose whether its delay is on the same side, the opposite side, or in the middle. Try it out. I'm sure you'll see the value and the huge range of possibilities available from this simple technique.

As for wild card, I suppose I could email you some presets that you could check out. Some times I use it as a dramatic effect that you hear, but mostly I use it as a musical/rhythmic noise generator that is derived from the music. I used to use a Boss SE-70 set to one of the vocoder settings to acomplish a similar thing, but in a moment of stupidity, I sold it. That was a great box. It was intended for guitar and It had 16 or so effects in each patch, kind of like a peadal board or the Ensonic DP4 (?? is that the right number). Have you ever used one of them?

I'm mixing today, so I'll check back when I need a break.

Steve

[schmeete]

Steve,

I LOVE the SE-70, it is my poor mans Eventide. There are a million patches that i just dont think about and insert to just see what happens. And many times it just inspires me and takes a "backround sound" to the next level. Sure it needs a little help on the PT Returns but it is just so "instant" and would take hours to duplicate with plug-ins.

Charles (concerning Lo-Fi),

I have yet to check some of my Lo-Fi settings in some of my sessions, but if memory serves me correctly, I will always set the Lo Pass to 32 000K to get rid of the not so great hi end (alias 100%, 24 bits), distortion no more than 2- 3, and most important just a tad of saturation "around .5", this is the part that does the creamy part for me. If the whole kit is going through it, the saturation will have less desirable effect on the kits lower end, so I tend to hi pass that aux after lo-fi or take out the kick if that doesnt work.

See ya all later, I am so digging your visit here Charles, and all the PT specific sharing it induces in all of us.

Peter

[Shan]

Hello Shan

Thanks for your reply and answer my question!By the way,i have no idea about "FX trigger track" you written at "Drum/Squish set-up" topic,would you please explain for me and it's application .

Thank you!

All the best
Rick

EXtreme Mixing explains it third thread from the top. Maybe he or myself can attach a PT session file so you can look at it.

Speaking of attaching PT session files. That might be a good idea to explain some tips to people. I have a few I could share this way. If I recall, we can post zip files. Maybe I or someone else can start this in a new thread.

Shane

[wallace]

Charles,

First off, thanks for sharing your knowledge!! It's much appreciated!

I'm kind of confused by the two faders you mention in your Digizine article. Are you sending your bussing at the output of your channels (to two aux tracks, one dry and one compressed) then mixing the two? Are you sending your reverb to the compressed channel?

Also, how do you pan the stereo aux channels? Full wide? What do you think about mono drums submixes and how would you pan the aux's in that case?

Thanks!

[Charles Dye]

Steve,

Thanks for all the great tips. I will definitely be trying the stereo verb + chorus. Re Wild Card, it wasn't settings I was looking for (but thanks for offering). I was just still not sure what instruments/vocals you use it on (gtrs, loops, percussion, bgs). I'm curious for an example of how you would apply it.

TIA.

[Charles Dye]

Peter,

Thanks for the great Lo-Fi tip. I will be trying it!

[Charles Dye]

Originally posted by wallace
I'm kind of confused by the two faders you mention in your Digizine article. Are you sending your bussing at the output of your channels (to two aux tracks, one dry and one compressed) then mixing the two? Are you sending your reverb to the compressed channel?

Also, how do you pan the stereo aux channels? Full wide? What do you think about mono drums submixes and how would you pan the aux's in that case?

Wallace,

Your welcome, and I forgot to mention in my earlier post to you, but I'm from Lancaster, OH + my folks still live there! I'm actually visiting them next weekend.

Re Drum/Squish, I explained it in more detail in another thread/post. If you haven't read it (+ I just added more to it today) check it out. It should answer some of your questions.

Also, I don't send reverb to the Aux Inputs (they both have the same input bus). If I did it would also be squished. But that doesn't mean you can't. I've tried it, didn't really like the sound. I may try it again + it could work perfectly for that song.

I do pan the two Aux's full wide, and then take care of all panning from the source tracks, but your question brings up a cool possibility. The more things are panned towards the center the punchier they get. You could pan the Squish Aux more towards the middle (or all the way to mono) + almost certainly get a very cool effect. To maintain width on your drum tracks you may need to widen their panning.

Hope this helps.

[wallace]

Hey Charles!
Thanks for the tips! I think I'm understanding better now what you're doing. I was sending the drums through the mix buss but not necessarily hearing the phase cancellation (b/c of LE maybe?)...I'll try these techniques. The plugin recommendations you gave sound great (still waiting for DIY PC version), the thing is with the limited processing power of LE I can only get so many plugs (maybe 18 or 20--reverb is very flaky anymore and usually crashes the session now). So I'm forced to do a drum submix that's imported back into the mix session. I try both mono and stereo drums.

So that's cool you're from Lancaster. Yeah, it's not too far from C-bus. Give me a shout if you want to come into the city and have good time/meet some interesting people/musicians....

Kevin

[Shan]

Originally posted by wallace
...the thing is with the limited processing power of LE I can only get so many plugs (maybe 18 or 20--reverb is very flaky anymore and usually crashes the session now). So I'm forced to do a drum submix that's imported back into the mix session. I try both mono and stereo drums.

Kevin

Hi Kevin, I highly suggest you build the Allenstein machine posted at the DUC. The thread is called "Best Desktops for PTLE" It is simply the best computer for a host based PT le system. And it's cheap and Digi approved. Even the 'Original Under $600.00 System' is very powerful. I have built 4 of these so far. I am able to do some pretty big session mixes without any problems. There are also some 'tweaks' you can do to your computer that will increase performance greatly. Host based DAWs have come along way.

Shane

[wallace]

Thanks for that tip Shane! I probably need to get a new computer sometime. I've got a P4, 1.8 gig/processor, Athalon board (?) 512 meg ram. It seems as though the weak link is my processor. I've seen the tweaks before. I can normally get a lot of plugins going, but the reverb generally crashes the machine-- occasionally with one or two other plugins (at full buffer settings). Not sure about this...

Charles and others: it seems as though most all of your tracks are manipulated and molded w/ several plugins during a mix?