Can ProTools make a bad drummer great ?

[Jose Mrochek]

Coming from Bolivia (south america) , finding a session drummer is imposible. For years I have always encountered the frustration of not being able to get a good mix due to the fact, that if drums where not played solid and in "perfect" timing the mix could never SOUND like a record. When I went to Fullsail, a school for recording I expected this subject to come up often but I guess the fact that you use a sessionist drummer is obvious, but unfortunately we don't have those in Bolivia. So I went ahead and bought an AKAI MPC2000 with the Bob Clearmountain sample drum cd. At first I was shocked with the good sounding samples, and wow mixes started to come out , but then again you can't match a sequence with real played drums. I'm currently recording my own rock album and we have opted, with my engineer to record real drums and edit them in Pro
Tools, he Cuts and pastes the best played parts and then levels off the kickdrums, snares etc.. and even maybe mix some of these with the AKAI samples. My question is : how much of this technique is used out there ? Will this pass the High Standards expected by a Producer in the U.S. ? ?? Thanks!!

[5down1up]

what drums make sound good imho is that they dont have " perfect timing " .
if someone holds his/her own time , thats what makes it GREAT and outstanding ( well those people are kinda hard to find ) !

you can cut drum parts using protools in perfect time ,
but if the drummer cant play , he/she mostly offers a bad tone as well , so you are saving time if you use just samples instead .

thats lifeless for some kinda music and it works great for some other !

sound starts at point number 1 on the list :

the people who play it

[DaveC]

Can ProTools make a bad drummer great ?

Can you make milk without a cow?
No.
Sorry for being so extremely sarcastic
But you can make a great drummer sound bad with PT:
I have used beat-detective, and/or made edits by chopping up all the tracks once....bye-bye groove!
I would indeed do a series of takes and then you choose which are played best, but you knew that allready.
But don't chop up the beat!

[Simon Lomax]

I am a producer who also dabbles with the drums (actually I have developed a drum tuition method)

I my experience of recording other drummers, great drumming can really make a track, and sloppy playing (late kick drum or stiffled fill) can ruin an otherwise great track. In some cases I have had to replace sections of the drums or try to hide mistakes but the best result have always been the good old fashioned one take from beginning to end!

Just my thoughts,

Simon

[Simon Lomax]

also:

5down1up what drums make sound good imho is that they dont have " perfect timing " .

I agree with 5down1up on this. When playing around with what "feel" is with the drums it is 100% down to timing and variation of it (well maybe 95% and 5% for the x factor aka talent)

Simon

[Jose Mrochek]

Thanks for the Replys, let me reformulate the question. Do you think i'm better off trying to make sequenced drums sound "real" or better off by grabbing real played grooves (by a drummer that does not give me the 95%) and paste them together to get a 95% timing wize drum track ???? Thanks!! P.S. I'd like to add that we have tried placing a pair of over heads a few feet away from the Genelecs (which played the drum sequence) and yes it helped alot on the depth department sequenced drums lack. But there is something psycological in me, that would hate to use sequenced drums. Thanks for your thoughts!

[Simon Lomax]

I suppose it just depends on what type of track you are doing? Sometimes live loops work well for somethings and programmed stuff may be appropriate for others.

If you are worried about the feel of the drum sound in your tracks that is totally understandable. I have an on going pet project to multi sample my drum kit to make the sounds playable on both my sampler in logic and on my electronic kit. I am really aiming to get a satisfying overall live sound - one that sounds whole rather than a load of individual and unconnected samples.

When I have the time I will setup my kit with the bunch of the usual mic that I use to record and multi sample from there. Then when I mix the sounds I will make sure that say the snare sound is a combination of the direct mic, over heads, room mic etc. Who knows it might work out to be really useful?

BTW using room mics with your loops sounds like a cool idea natural reverb on drums always gets the from me.

Simon

[ixnys]

I think there are a lot of ways to manipulate drums to make them sound great...well at least pretty damn solid. I always prefer to use a real kit however and then augment with samples if needed later on. I'll share my tips for what I do.

I like to break the song up into sections: intro, verse, pre-chorus, chorus, bridge, outro, etc.

Then what I do is set up my click track. Since I usually have scratch tracks, I'll take each section and copy it about 5-10 times. So that means I'll record 5-10 takes of each section on the drums. Sometimes I don't even need the scratch bass and guitar tracks when I record. But they are nice to have so I can hear them and first just figure out what I'm gonna play on the drums.

So basically at this point, I'll just be practicing and playing along with the click and scratch tracks in my headphones while trying to figure out what I want to play while getting used to the tempo.

Once I feel comfortable, it's time to start recording. I press record, I hear the 2 bars of the click track I setup earlier, and bam I start recording the first take. Once that pass ends, I hear the next 2 bars of the click track and start recording the 2nd take and so on. The process continues untill I've recorded enough takes.

If I felt I got enough good takes, I'll go to the control room and check them out. I'll listen to them against the click track and see which one is the most on time and most consistent in dynamics and tone. Since I've only been playing drums for about a year and a half, I need to result to the beat detective for a little assistence to tighten up my playing.

Before I go into the beat detective part, let me continue with the recording techniques. First of all, I mic all the toms, top and bottom mics on snare, mic inside kick, maybe an outside mic on kick if needed, overhead mics, maybe a room mic, and a mic on the hi-hat and ride.

If you don't have the coordination to play seperate beats from your hands and your feet, here's another technique that can save an unexperienced drummer A LOT OF TIME. Don't play the kick drum. This can really help your timing because you can just focus on hat/crash and snare/toms. You can replace kick samples in later for where you want them.

Heck you can even apply this technique to more of the kit. One pass just play hi-hat and cymbals, and on the other pass play the drums. This can actually help in getting a really "clean" and seperated drum mix. Sometimes I listen to The Used CD and think this might have been done because the drums are so damn clean and seperated. Listen to the song "noise and kisses."

Anways those are ways an unexperienced drummer can record tolerable takes. The better the drummer is the easier it will be of course, but I'm showing how an unexperienced drummer like myself can get some pretty slammin drums.

So just to recap:
-Duplicate each section and record multiple takes on the drums. Then choose the best.

-If timing is a real problem, don't play the kick drum.

-If you're really uncordinated or just looking for good seperation, play hat and cymbals on one take and snare,(kick), and toms on another take.

-Finally try to mic all the drums ESPECIALLY hi-hat and I'll tell you why.

OKAY SO NOW YOU'VE TRACKED THE DRUMS

Alright you've tracked your drums, but they still have timing issues. This is where beat detective comes in. NOTE: you can do this without beat detective, but it could take more time depending on the individual. Anways when using beat detective, I like to work in sections still. I might even only work 4 bars at once.

You'll want to apply BT to all of the drum tracks. Micing the hi-hat is important, cuz it's your basis usually for 16th or 8th notes. When you mic the hi-hat, you get those spikes in the waveform which gives BT a reference. I usually like to quantize to the 16th note. So BT is getting most of it's information from the hi-hat, kick, and snare tracks. Basically if your tracks were tight enough, you'll be able to quantize without a problem. However usually, once you slice the drums at their peaks with BT you manually have to go over and move the peaks to the correct beat. Then you can smooth and fill gaps.

Basically you repeat the BT process untill you don't hear any wierd edits. Watch out for cymbals/hi-hat swells and kick/snare sers. Later you can then add samples to augment your drums sounds.

Remember the isolation technique where you just record hi-hat/cymbals on one take and drums on the other? For that technique, first just BT the hi-hat/cymbal take. THEN BT the drum take. You might have to do little more editing with this one to make sure the drums fall on the right beats as the cymbals. Nonetheless, it shouldn't be that hard.

Once you have quantized everything to your desired percentage, you can swap good and bad sections. There is so much to do as far as editing goes. So hopefully I provided enought tips to get you on your way to great sounding drums. I wanted to focus more on the recording aspect first. If you have further questions on the editing process with BT, just ask in the thread.

In conclusion, of course it takes more work then if you just had a session drummer who could whip out drum tracks with great timing, but this thread is to demonstrate how the less than average drummer can sound like a pro.

[Bruce Keen]

If you can't play or find a player and don't have good kit or a good room you could do far worse than invest in BFD drums (Fxpansion) which will give you a better sounding result than a poor performance chopped salami style. Nothing will ever replace a great drummer but this tool is a good crutch.

Cheers

[C.Lambrechts]

I've heard from some people that went to the Frankfurter Messe that 'bout the only thing worthwhile over there was the announcement of the 'new' version of the spectrasonics plugin Stylus..... Stylus RMX or something like that. Available round september and according to people quite impressive in the 'humanize beat' department.

just a thought .....


I'd take my time and look for a good drummer but in a worst case scenario I'll rather programm it myself then have a lousy human feel on the track.

I was a drummer in a previous life ... helps the programming a little and if all fails I can still hit record/play ... run into the booth and play myself ... although that's a hassle when you miss and you have to restart.

[Jose Mrochek]

Thank You all for your time and good advice!!

[Robotnik]

Originally posted by Jose Mrochek
Can ProTools make a bad drummer great ?

That all depends on who's pushing the mouse behind the DAW.

[alphajerk]

Originally posted by Robotnik
That all depends on who's pushing the mouse behind the DAW.

wouldnt that just make a great mouse pusher and a piss poor drummer?

[Bruce Keen]

protools drum edits suck. If you think a protools operator can make a better drum track than a great drummer you've never met a great drummer.

Cheers

[alphajerk]

Originally posted by Bruce Keen
protools drum edits suck. If you think a protools operator can make a better drum track than a great drummer you've never met a great drummer.

Cheers

there are great beatmakers out there who make killer beats on drum machines... not saying its editing in PT but, still very cool. put in Aphex Twins Richard D James album and one could subjectively say contrived is better and say you've never met a great programmer/

[Robotnik]

Originally posted by Bruce Keen
protools drum edits suck. If you think a protools operator can make a better drum track than a great drummer you've never met a great drummer.

Cheers

You've obviously never met Scott Humphrey. And, I've certainly never met you, Bruce.

[karl]

Using Pro Tools and Beat Detective well can enhance most drum performances. It is a bit like Autotune. Some people really hate the idea. But you can make a bad drummer acceptable and a good drummer even better. It should depend on what the band are trying to achieve.

[alphajerk]

Originally posted by karl
Using Pro Tools and Beat Detective well can enhance most drum performances. It is a bit like Autotune. Some people really hate the idea. But you can make a bad drummer acceptable and a good drummer even better. It should depend on what the band are trying to achieve.

but will totally KILL a REAL drummer. why take the swing away? there is SO MUCH MORE to drumming than quantizing crap.

[DaveC]

but will totally KILL a REAL drummer. why take the swing away? there is SO MUCH MORE to drumming than quantizing crap.

I second that!

[5down1up]

what i like about beat detective isnt the fact , that i am able to bring some audio slices to a grid ... i like to create the tempomap depending on either drums or other material and keep the "natural" rhythm changes .

theres nothing to argue about a faster played chorus compared to the verse , etc .
the only thing that might be confusing is the visual aspect .

well if it isnt on the grid ... its wrong ?

[djui5]

There's only 2 things that effect a drummers style. Timing and velocity of each hit, both of which can be modified in pro-tools. You can nudge each drum hit on a sample level and adjust the volume of each hit with automation. I personally think that if someone is skilled enough and has enough time they could replicate a great drummer. It would be very hard and quite time consuming, but could be done. But it's so much easier to stick mic's in a room and let a good drummer go at it.
Now doing something like copying a certain drummers style by editing your own drums in pro-tools would be almost impossible but could be done given the right skills and enough time . You would have to match his/her exact timing and velocity for each hit. My question is why would someone go to such great lengths to do something like that. If you really need to make your own drums for a song then make them to fit the song. You could "create" your own drummer in a sense. Turn the grid off and nudge each hit into place untill you get the feel you want. Then adjust each hit's volume by a couple of db in some random fashion and viola...a new drum sound. Merry Christmas, Happy Easter.

[Jose Mrochek]

Yes, djui5 I agree with you. The drummer I used has a pretty good hit, or velocity as you say it. But his timing was off in many places during the song. I know it's time consuming, and well it left us with no other option than to fix that. As I mentioned earlier in the thread we don't have drummers in my country that can record. period. As a matter of fact, we don't have an SSL console in the country. Just to give you an idea of where I'm coming from. though alot of very good "folkloric" bands have recorded, they never even used a drumset for their songs. So recording real drums is a very new thing here, New thing meaning.. recording drums that sound like a record in any part of the world. I do feel confortable with my engineer and his protools editing capabilities. He has recorded "bad musicians" for the past 10 years, and hell he had to convert them into good ones!! (long live the DAW)!! All of the threads have been of great help, thanks everyone!

[shipshape]

The answer is yes , if you want to spend the time , Protools CAN make a bad drummer sound great ,

[Robotnik]

Originally posted by shipshape
The answer is yes , if you want to spend the time , Protools CAN make a bad drummer sound great ,

The right guy pushing the mouse behind the DAW.

[djui5]

Originally posted by Jose Mrochek
Yes, djui5 I agree with you. The drummer I used has a pretty good hit, or velocity as you say it. But his timing was off in many places during the song. I know it's time consuming, and well it left us with no other option than to fix that. As I mentioned earlier in the thread we don't have drummers in my country that can record. period. As a matter of fact, we don't have an SSL console in the country.

Sorry to hear that..especially about the SSL. They're so much fun to play with. If I can do anything to help you out let me know. I know plenty of drummers and if you ever need one to fly over I'm sure we could arrange something.....

[Jose Mrochek]

Thanks djui5, on my next record I will definetly take your offer in consideration!! As far as the SSL goes I will fly to miami in May and mix my album at crescent moon studios. And very very , more than extremely excited about it. The album sounds UK'ish , kind of like the band Coldplay . And I am looking for that sound. And the SSL factor will hopefully pull this project off. That is why I posted this thread in the first place, I want my drums to sound more than acoustic. My favorite bands are Pink Floyd, Beatles and U2 ... (I don't know the order of importance). But my point is.. non of these bands have the "in your face rocking mix" , the mix is just there letting you enjoy the songs. In contrast to many records made today where the sound overpowers the song if you know what I mean??? Sometimes I listen to great new mixes like the new Britney Spears Toxic, where I'm overwhelmed by the creativity of the producers, programmers, mixers.. that I tend to analize the mix rather than sit back and enjoy the song.. well ofcourse excluding the video. when I watch the video I look at Britney, the rest is forgotten

[5down1up]

what i like most about recording drums are :

Ohs and room mics ...

if the drummer cant play you cant edit those tracks ,
if the hats not with the snare you´ll need " years " to edit that.

if its that way , i take samples and maybe rerecrod em in a room with a set of speakers for the " roomy kinda tracks " .

and of course " ENJOY the song "

[djui5]

Originally posted by Jose Mrochek
Thanks djui5, on my next record I will definetly take your offer in consideration!! As far as the SSL goes I will fly to miami in May and mix my album at crescent moon studios. And very very , more than extremely excited about it. The album sounds UK'ish , kind of like the band Coldplay . And I am looking for that sound. And the SSL factor will hopefully pull this project off. That is why I posted this thread in the first place, I want my drums to sound more than acoustic. My favorite bands are Pink Floyd, Beatles and U2 ... (I don't know the order of importance). But my point is.. non of these bands have the "in your face rocking mix" , the mix is just there letting you enjoy the songs. In contrast to many records made today where the sound overpowers the song if you know what I mean???

Sure do. Those records are mixed and tracked in a completly different way than albums of today. They used more effects and not so much of a raw sound as the records of today. I do feel that the inherint sound of an SSL will be helpful to your final sound goals, but don't expect it to do all the work. You as a mixer will have to use it as a tool to shape your sound.
Have you ever used one? If not your in for a hell of a time. Those boards are a lot of fun to work on...I love em.
Cresent Moon is a very nice place and I know you'll have a great time there. I never had the pleasure of working there but know of people who have (Eric Schilling). I'd love it....
I wish you my best on your project!

[Nathanael]

Why don't you take advantage of the internet and have one of the drummers here lay down a thick groove for you?

No reason you can't fly tracks back and forth across the internet. I think there are even drummers that specialize in doing session work remotely. There was a guy who hung out on rec.audio.pro but I don't recall his name.

Anyway, lots of other folk have good drums, gear, and talent. No reason not to have good live drums.