Relative loudness and the destruction of dynamic range

[AUDIOSFX]

Charles,

I am curious about your thoughts on this subject. I feel we all are as engineers responsible for the loudness race and are getting to a place where the dynamic range we have is being maxed to the limit (if we are not already there) leaving no room for mixes to breath unless there is a break.

We all over compress we all squeeze the last bit of digital resolution we can...Is it for the better...

I notice you almost compress everything on the digizine mix.. Is it because its expected (outside pressure.. "producers, a&r,public"?

Or is it "the sound" that so many speak of...The very premise of your articles...

Are the analog guys slamming tape for the sound or level?

Does distortion sound better?

I listened to Fleetwood Mac's roomers recently and it was all analog and very dynamic... I can not say much about the most recent pop records.. Hoobastanks new record is mind rippingly loud...

this should be fun...

[AUDIOSFX]

By the way a very interesting link found by
Mazaga

http://www.digido.com/portal/pmodule...der_page_id=59

[alphajerk]

personally, a carte blanche statement that no dynamic range always is bad istn correct or no one has seen a REAL rock and roll band live. not only are they loud as piss, with songs that [most times] do NOT have dynamics and are more of an assault on the soul.... their inherent loudness on stage combined with the PA system on overload compresses the sound in the room they are playing it..... so ROCK & ROLL. get vlad to crush it.


as for other genres.... they do need to breathe more than they do. im suprised often with other genre slients who come in with CDs for AB that are more crushed than their music should dictate wantin the same thing. but they do have the money and who has the money wins always.

[jazzius II]

I agree that certain genres benefit from "the big squeeze", but the problem is that many of today's releases (engineers) step over this mark into the realms of pure loudness.......a place where all you're gaining is (relative) loudness....everything else is going downhill.

The problem (IMO) is that there's a bit of a communication/knowledge "hole" that exists between engineers and artists/producers......the vast majority of artists and many producers are totally unaware of the loudness wars.......many's a time i've tried to bring up the question of loudness, only to be greeted with a blank (save for a "WTF is he talking about?" crease round the eyes) stare.....at this point you realize you're going to have to make the judgement call, totally on your own.......which isn't helped by the fact that they've brought in horribly loud reference material while stating they're only concerned with sound quality.

So faced with these circumstances, many engineers lack that courage to keep levels sensible and just jump on the loudness band-wagon.

Just take a stroll over to the MP3 upload area on this site. Virtually all of the MP3's are limited to high heaven.

[studjo]

Hey Jazz you listened to my crappy singer - so you know I had to compress him to hell otherwise he wouldn't be bareable - I swear!

btw heard a new single from a very famous rock band - really big. It was so compressed that the snare sounded lick fingernails on a chalkboard - iiiiiiiiiiiiiitsch.

to bad

sometimes I like the compressed to hell sound - but only sometimes



Jo

[jazzius II]

Originally posted by studjo
btw heard a new single from a very famous rock band - really big. It was so compressed that the snare sounded lick fingernails on a chalkboard - iiiiiiiiiiiiiitsch.

Just for the record, i didn't even bother powering up my compressors for that session.

[Bob Olhsson]

It really isn't up to the engineers. It's the folks who sell the records to radio who are driving the insanity.

[jazzius II]

Originally posted by Bob Olhsson
It really isn't up to the engineers. It's the folks who sell the records to radio who are driving the insanity.

Bob, I don't think this is strictly true. In this market (Holland) for instance, I've never had any pressure about loudness from any A+R or other record company mooks. It only ever comes (rarely) from producers, who compare their stuff to the best (and/or loudest) stuff outta the U.S.

So in the instances where there's no record company pressure (the vast majority of cases world-wide I'm sure), it's up to the mix/master engineers (and producers where applicable). And with so many powerful limiter plugs and poor quality monitoring.....well, you know the rest.

I favor the Sony Inflator plug in for generating LOUD masters myself.

[Nathanael]

I had a surreal experience in a friend's commercial studio. He had produced an album for a local singer/songwriter type. It was a full production: drums, guitars, keys, backing vocals - the works.

The client had a bit of extra $$, so the album went to a big name NYC mastering house. It came back flat as a pancake.

The first version I heard was the mastered version. I said to the producer - sounds pretty flat dynamically. He said, "here's the original", and pushed play from his DAW - it was nice, punchy, dynamic music.

Then the kicker, "the client loves the mastered version - he just wants to turn it up in his car."

So who's fault was it? Hard to hold the ME responsible if the client is thrilled, and feels like it was $$ well spent.

- Nathanael
Who has yet to compress a final product - tee hee (classical is wierd that way)

[ttauri]

I'm finding the loudness wars have created a real pickle as far as dance stuff is concerned. In the mix of action, it can be easy to forget you need to adjust the trim--I've had occasions where I've hastily cut into a quieter or louder track and been like "oh sh--!" Now that things are so slammed, it's a tough negotiation with the practical concerns of making records as easy to mix together as possible (hell, some DJ mixers don't even have trim controls).

Peece,
T. Tauri

[AUDIOSFX]

This is a great thread. I find myself stuck also wanting a way out to not sound like x record when the client insists that it should sound this way. It boils down to our work. But we created the problem. Thats the strange thing about engineering. We know whats right but we don't necessarily follow the rules or guidelines maybe even common sense. Educating only goes so far when I see the "WTF is he talking about expression" alot.

There definately is a too loud and there definately is a limit to it.

We are there ..now what...

Maybe every record should come with a warning...

OVERCOMPRESSED MATERIAL CAUTION...


-ws

[studjo]

Originally posted by jazzius II
Just for the record, i didn't even bother powering up my compressors for that session.

Just for another record: I think you weren't involved in that one Jazz.
Btw I don't want to insult anyone so I won't tell names.

Jo

[jazzius II]

Originally posted by studjo
Just for another record: I think you weren't involved in that one Jazz.
Btw I don't want to insult anyone so I won't tell names.

Jo

ah, go on.....name some names!

[jazzius II]

Another thing people need to realize is that (relative) loudness is a product of the arrangement/production/mix......not only the mastering.......by this i mean, certain mixes will just sound louder and fuller before you even get into the mastering process.

So problems arise when people try to push (less then brilliant) mixes to the (apparent) level of the best stuff......at this point you're sacrificing everything else just to keep up with the loudness jones's.....and this happens a lot!

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally posted by Nathanael
... "the client loves the mastered version - he just wants to turn it up in his car." ...

This is the lemming effect. People want to sound as close as possible to whatever is selling. When I was at Motown we'd watch idiots mimicking every single technical problem we weren't able it fix for a final record because they thought it was part of the magic


I'd go so far as to say that the arrangement and the mix are the most important elements in achieving loudness.

[AUDIOSFX]

I find the that before the mastering process ever happens the Solid brick affect has long been in place...

Jules,
I have to try the sony plug...since phoenix worked so well...

He is doing it so why should'nt all of us do it...

Lemmings....Lemmings....'nough said..


-ws

[natpub]

Originally posted by Bob Olhsson
I'd go so far as to say that the arrangement and the mix are the most important elements in achieving loudness.

I'll second this, and would go one step further, that arrangement and performance are far too often ignored in the loudness discussions, yet are perhaps the most impacting elements. Short of pain or inaudibility, perceived volume is all relative.


KT

[jazzius II]

Originally posted by natpub
I'll second this, and would go one step further, that arrangement and performance are far too often ignored in the loudness discussions, yet are perhaps the most impacting elements. Short of pain or inaudibility, perceived volume is all relative.


KT

Strange but true!

When you think about it, a crappy performance has a certain phase looseness......the speaker cones are flapping around randomly as people unconfidently play their part, slightly out of sync....lot's of sounds which shouldn't be there (open strings ringing etc).....the drummer tickling the kit like a pussy through lack of confidence....etc etc

.....compare this to a bunch of people all hitting it on the one (as JB might say), getting those speakers to punch in sync....think about it!

[edmann]

Creamware Optimizer!