Mixing Rock All In the Box w/ DAW Buss

[Charles Dye]

Please, no posts about analog v. digital summing. This thread is to discuss mixing rock while using your DAW's internal digital buss only. Thanks.


For the sake of this thread let's start with the idea that you are, have, or will be mixing rock with your DAW using only its internal digital buss for summing. In my experience it has been essential to get an analog kind of sound when mixing rock in a DAW. Please share your techniques on how you accomplish this with plug-ins when you mix.

The subject of analog v. digital summing has, and will continue to be, discussed at great length elsewhere. If you've found that the only way you can do it is via analog OBG and summing then let's please save those posts for a different thread. I'd like to stay focused here on plug-in techniques that you have all come up with to emulate the analog saturation + crunchiness that is necessary for rock.

1) Use Phoenix plug in on Drum bus + gtrs

or

2) Stab yourself in the heart.


Simple!




+ Sony Dynamics for clean drum group compresion (use some warmth too)

Or McDSP - Compressorbank (more of a creamy 70's retro vibe)

[Shan]

Hi Charles, since we have some great new plugs pop up recently, are you using anything new on your mix bus such as 'Impact' etc.

Shan

[Jim Roberts]

I've been using the McDSP AC2 on the drum bus and the AC1 on the Master.

Lately I've been using the URS plugins (1084 + 550) for EQ as well.

I like the sound of it.

I posted a link to an entire album in the appropriate MP3 forum for 'New Bands'. Would be interested in to hear your opinion. Most of this album was done before the introduction of the URS plugs, but I'm pretty sure I used the McDSP stuff above.

[shipshape]

"The Alsihad mixbus shall crumble like the Tower of Babel"
ooh harsh "Digiblows !"
Then along came the folcrom and a bunch of other summing boxes that just blew that very old argument right out of the water !!!!!
I also love to use the Pheonix plug-in as well as all the new URS plugs..which I think are fantastic......and have put eq'ing in protools int a different league.....after the summing I like to use the Cranesong Hedd and an SSL comp to help with the rock stuff......or for that matter ..anytype of music.
I'm also just about to put an order in for an Icon......so that should be fun .I really believe that great mixes can be done on an HD Accel system.
You guys can argue about it while I get my mix finnished !!!

[Charles Dye]

Originally posted by DigiBlows
The Alsihad mixbus shall crumble like the Tower of Babel

DigiBlows,

Your opinion is highly valued as is everyone elses on the subject of analog v. digital summing, but I asked very nicely in my original post:

Please save your posts about analog v. digital summing busses for another thread.

Thanks

[Auxillary]

I find myself often using noise (such as a dither plug on a blank track, with some gain on it), or a sidechained pink/white noise track working with a compressed drum subgroup. Noise is the key to me, little bits in "exciting" places.

Also, I find myself starting to like using acoustic "imprints" on tracks too. The other day I setup a snare with loose snare about 2 feet from a loud stack, and the little snare rumble picked up really "filled up" the space on the guitar track. Not noticable in the mix, but once it was gone, you knew something was missing.

Another trick I enjoy using often is just putting tape noise (pre-recorded, i have about 10gb of tape noise from different machines i did a while ago) in all the quiet sections. It really helps fill in space in a common, and therefore unobtrusive, place. I started this after doing many recordings in samplitude and being disgusted with how empty lower volume sections sounded compared to my favorite analogue recordings.

Noise is the key. Noiseless recordings are boring, lifeless and incredibly annoying.

Ill pop back in with more, I have a lot of opinion on this thread.

[stealthbalance]

phoenix is my main thing and is awesome. for the drum compression pummel i will use the compressor in channelstrip - very ssl quad compressor like.
if its more on the dirtier rock side , for me the duy stuff is awesome . duy tape is just dirtier and ballsier of a sound. for gtrs too. also duy valve. also as far as eq's , i tend to put my more usual oxford plugs aside and tend to use mcdsp filterbank which sounds more modelled to me and more neve like . i will try the urs stuff soon as im excited about just seeing the graphics on the screen anyway. also a trace of duy wide on ambiences can be cool. and not to sound stupid but rock stuff can very often be helped with verbs like the altiverb studios and also the emt 250 impulses. i used to love the old lexicon pcm60 on drums and rooms and i think altiverb offers the program or i mean impusle stuff that captures that great sound. dirty early reflection stuf like the ursa major space station - is it the sst 282 ?? also not a plug ., but the big ben clock really offered a nice improvement to the drum sounds for me.
s

[Shan]

Great ideas Auxillary, Since I dont have access to a tape machine would you be willing to share your 'tape noise' samples?

Shan

[Charles Dye]

Great, great stuff. I work towards the same goals as all of you + I just love how no one goes about it the same way. Thanks for being so generous with your hard earned earned discoveries.

[Auxillary]

Originally posted by Shan
Great ideas Auxillary, Since I dont have access to a tape machine would you be willing to share your 'tape noise' samples?

Shan

I dont think I have the time or resources to make them available to the masses, and it would be a bit unfair to share with just a few... Ill see if I can get something together, maybe a CD of my favorites and sell it at cost?

[Charles Dye]

Another option for tape noise is DUY's DaD Tape which has three different noise settings: no noise reduction, dolby, + dbx. Both NR settings still allow noise through, but also add the additional signature of the pumping of the noise reduction to audio as it passes thru the plug. Additionally, as you change the other settings (tape speed + type of tape machine) the character of the noise changes to reflect the new settings. Darker for the slower speeds + cruchier for the older tape machines. It's pretty cool.

[oortnyc]

I have been using the Crane Song dither CD as a noise tool. Very warm and tape hiss like.

[Shan]

Unfortunately I'm a Pro Tools guy on the PC and we have no tape saturatin plugs at all. Something that is very needed. I'll check out the Crane song dither CD for a noise tool. Thanks for the tip. Guess I'll have to get a Crane Song HEDD for the tape stuff.

Shan

[Auxillary]

No tape stuff on PC? I thought the DUY was for pc too? Ah well.

If anyone here knows a good short-run cd replicator let me know. I can do my own, but my costs are high compared to commercial facilities, and I really dont have the time for it.

What kinda stuff you guys think would be cool? I have basic tape machine noise stuff (every tape machine ive ever worked with ), modelled noise (that i did myself), vinyl noise, modelled vinyl noise, vacuum cleaner loops, ground hums etc... Its my hobby inside my profession, I love noise! Its the glue of any good recording, listen for yourself and youll agree. Of course, that's noise inherent to the music/recording chain...

[Auxillary]

Just while I am thinking of it, another thing I love to do while "in the box" is messing with the high-end. It sounds like ass (insert fart noise here) 98% of the time. So It's always fun to find different ways to enhance it or overtly change it. My common technique is to take 2 equalizers (no fir please), one high shelf +1-2 and another take it down. Something crazy like a mcdsp then digirack plug. Completely new sound, sometimes it can sharpen up, smooth outh, or totally phase-**** the sound. just something that's fun to try when you have such problems.

Another fun one is to take a FIR eq such as firium (rtas only, www.elementalaudio.com) create a flat 18db cut across the entire spectrum and toss lots of makeup gain on it. instant maximizer effect on the low end. Really cool stuff for your "digital headaches"

[JFernandez]

Hey Shan,
Go with the Cranesong Hedd ,you wont regret it!

[bassmac]

Ironic, isn't it?

The digital generation is adding the same noise and hiss that the analog generation tried to get rid of.

I guess you don't appreciate something until it's gone.

[alphajerk]

Originally posted by Auxillary
Noise is the key. Noiseless recordings are boring, lifeless and incredibly annoying.

geez, im always trying to get RID of noise.. and the reason what i like about digital. fukk noise. there is PLENTY just from source material with rock. from the amp hiss, to outputs on keyboards... or anything with distortion, to heavily compressed tracks bringing up the floor noise.

i have tricks with digital... tho im not exactly sure how to go about explaining them as they always vary dependant on the song.

distortion with rock.... de-essers on the comps in the upper mid range [SC eq's whatever, same concept]. uh, spatializers for width, effective use of verbs for depth [or delays] phasers, flangers, panning delays, dessers on verb returns, envelope followers.... et al.

i LOVE mixing in the box for too many reasons. no way i will EVER go back.

[Curve Dominant]

I recently embarked on a hard rock project I'm producing all in the box: a demo CD for Godsmack frontman Sully Erna's guitar tech, Kurt Guitars. He has a page on the Curve website with an mp3 called "Righteous Fury."

A few things I did with plugins on these tracks:

> Summed all the drums to a stereo mix with the BF 1176 on the mix bus.

> Used BF Pultec EQP on the clean rhythm guitar tracks.

> Used Ohmforce Frohmage on the bass guitar, set to the "Base" preset.

> BF 1176 on the mix bus for the overall track, then bounced to disk,

> Once I reopened the stereo bounce in a new session, I applied DUY Wide to the track, with no EQ boost, and about 20 or 25% wide setting.

> Then another BF 1176 on a very gentle setting,

> Then to Maxim for a touch more phattness.

Both Kurt and Sully were really impressed with the results, and now Kurt wants to record and produce his entire CD here.

[krid]

I have some mix feelings about those "Wide" plugins like Duy Wide and Waves Stereo Imager.
To my experience when I used this kind of plug, I lose a bit of dynamic and it colors a bit the sound, so I prefer to not use them.

[Auxillary]

Originally posted by alphajerk
geez, im always trying to get RID of noise.. and the reason what i like about digital. fukk noise. there is PLENTY just from source material with rock. from the amp hiss, to outputs on keyboards... or anything with distortion, to heavily compressed tracks bringing up the floor noise.

i have tricks with digital... tho im not exactly sure how to go about explaining them as they always vary dependant on the song.

distortion with rock.... de-essers on the comps in the upper mid range [SC eq's whatever, same concept]. uh, spatializers for width, effective use of verbs for depth [or delays] phasers, flangers, panning delays, dessers on verb returns, envelope followers.... et al.

i LOVE mixing in the box for too many reasons. no way i will EVER go back.

Oh I totally agree AJ, it's when you get some super clean Solid state amp, really clean bass etc.. etc.. It starts to sound sterile. Assuming you just track a band live, then compress the hell out of it, all is taken care of for about any concerns of it sounding "natural" or "normal".

and likewise, I grew up analog, went digital... decided to go analog again... and digital again. Aint going back to analog again eva. (quote me on this in a year when im back at a desk)

[nikki-k]

Hi!
Others may not, but I like using Waves SI.

Sometimes, taking drum submix, or sends on *most* of the tracks, buss it out to an Aux with a Verb on it with just some ER, sometimes with some tail too, and insert SI after it, widen to taste, and blend it VERY lightly. One of the most irritating things (besides the "slammin levels" crap) is the way alot of mixes (rock, pop, etc) seem to have instruments in different rooms or spaces. No cohesiveness. Snare sounds like it is in a wet cardboard box, each piece of the rest of the kit placed in different rooms, vocal in a padded cell, guitars and bass somewhere else entirely.
For effect is one thing, but...

And then there are amp modellers..ugh...
Blended well, or used on something other than guitars, a boon. "Standalone" or as a complete substitute...reminds me of when Billy Crystal had the skit on SNL- "You know when ya fall off a building, and as you're falling, ya catch your eyelid on a rusty nail on the way down?..." Septuple Rectumized...*sigh*

Bussing some of the low freq heavy stuff- kik, bass, maybe even some snare- lowpass the buss, dynamics plug, and throw either Aphex stuff or Waves MaxxBass or RenBass on it, tweak and blend lightly. Sometimes throw a nice EQ to tailor a bit. Plus, can *target* the center a bit with lows, or spread em wide for an "odder" sound. Doesn't always work (what does?), but when it does... Tried it as a variation of the old live FOH trick for "bass management" in clubs.

Biggest plus for doing ITB mixing has been going 24/96. I have even taken older sessions and imported into a new 24/96 session and found improvement. Feels/sounds a little more open, and ...hmmm...hard to describe...almost like each frequency sounds more defined or detailed. Easier to discern things I guess- really cannot find the right words to relate what I am hearing. "Open" and "Detailed" are just too vague IMO. Then again, most languages are too vague...ehe

Cool thread! Always love finding a gem of an idea.

[title]

Originally posted by Shan
Unfortunately I'm a Pro Tools guy on the PC and we have no tape saturatin plugs at all. Something that is very needed. I'll check out the Crane song dither CD for a noise tool. Thanks for the tip. Guess I'll have to get a Crane Song HEDD for the tape stuff.

Shan

If you are on a TDM System on XP, crane song just came out with Phoenix for XP TDM, unfortunetly not for LE though. hope it helps. - LP

[Brad McGowan]

Anyone have any tips for us non Pro Tools users? I'm a Nuendo/VST user myself. And as far as I know we don't have McDSP or DUY available to us.

I seem to get a lot of use out of PSP Vintage Warmer and my UAD plugins for fattening things up. I've been having good luck mixing in a submix of drums that have a UAD Fairchild on the buss. Some of the newer Voxengo plugins also look very interesting...Warmifier and Lampthruster to be specific.

On a recent project I've been having fun processing certain tracks through my vintage Twin Reverb amp and using my Weber MASS DI output to tap it off the speaker.

Brad

[Bobro]

Not doing "rock" at this time- anyway most of what friends play for me as contemporary "rock" doesn't jibe at all with my conception of rock, sounds more descended from Kraftwerk than field hollers and dangerous bars.

But I am going for certain things in sound that IMO are directly related to "rock" recording, such as thickness and color. And I've found that it's the incredibly low noise floor of the DAW, which may be taken for granted by those who don't remember for example 4-track cassette, which lets you get a lot of color into the recording before any plugins at all are applied.

For example, nicely coinciding with the current microphone boom,
you can put mics far- even very far- from the source and not worry about noise, it'll be "analog" and "organic", and largely masked down into a subtle feeling. Add to this the easy portability of DAWs, giving you access to all kinds of rooms you never could afford (or want ) to build, and from the tracking you're already ahead of things as far as color.

-Bobro

[laughingbear]

Originally posted by Brad McGowan
Anyone have any tips for us non Pro Tools users? I'm a Nuendo/VST user myself. And as far as I know we don't have McDSP or DUY available to us.

I seem to get a lot of use out of PSP Vintage Warmer and my UAD plugins for fattening things up. I've been having good luck mixing in a submix of drums that have a UAD Fairchild on the buss. Some of the newer Voxengo plugins also look very interesting...Warmifier and Lampthruster to be specific.

On a recent project I've been having fun processing certain tracks through my vintage Twin Reverb amp and using my Weber MASS DI output to tap it off the speaker.

Brad

Hi,

I do use Reason 2.5 as my "scratchpad", having my re-loaded Akai samples from within Reason available. Let's say I have a good idea there, then I am re-wiring into Nuendo and take it from there adding stuff and so on.... I find that very pleasing and fun.

PSP tools are of high quality in my view, and I recently started to use the Master EQ and Vintage warmer on the main stereo buss which adds a certain nice flavour.

I experimented with routing Hanz Zimmer guitars through external Tube Gear which I found interesting.

I think Voxengo is fairly good as well, but I plan to get myself a TC Powercore, mainly because of the Sony Oxford EQ'S available now.

May be I should mention that I am a musician (masterclass piano), and no educated engineer, I'd call myself a rookie in terms of mixing and audio engineering by all means.

I work on a DVD with Adobe Premiere edited slideshows and clips, audio in DTS sound, well thats the final goal. Still a long way to go for me.

Personally I love the idea of mixing in the box, I think this is getting better and better.... For to have a fairly good quality I plan to invest in LYNX2 cards which seems to be a good all in one solution, I am sure there is better, but it is a question of money for me.

I also would recommend to look at Izotopes Product, Ozone3, I simply could not believe for what a pricetag that monster goes. some like it some don't, but it is very powerfull in deed if used with caution....

Enough rant from a rookie....

[Charles Dye]

Originally posted by Shan
Unfortunately I'm a Pro Tools guy on the PC and we have no tape saturatin plugs at all. Something that is very needed. I'll check out the Crane song dither CD for a noise tool. Thanks for the tip. Guess I'll have to get a Crane Song HEDD for the tape stuff.

Shan,

Another option as a noise source is the Funk Logic Mastererizer. It's an RTAS/HTDM + Mac OS X/Windows XP compatible plug. In Digidesign's catalog they describe it as a "Special Effects (Joke)", but it's definitely not. What it really does is generate different kinds of lo-fi analog noise. No other plug I know of does this.

From the Mastererizer manual:

How the Mastererizer is Used

Insert the Funk Logic Mastererizer on a track. Adjust its controls as needed until the desired amount of hiss, hum, distortion, crackle, grit, dirt, or age is audible. As always, experimentation provides the best results.

The best feature of all is that it is apart of the FREE bundle of Bomb Factory plugs that digi is giving away.

Hope this helps.

[Brad Blackwood]

Originally posted by Shan
Unfortunately I'm a Pro Tools guy on the PC and we have no tape saturatin plugs at all. Something t