Recording to Tape Vs. Pro Tools

[drezz]

Hi Butch,

Thanks for answering our questions, & thanks for your sterling work over the years, Nevermind & Siamese Dream especially are 2 standout classics that will be forever in the all time greats for me, that work alone is just outstanding..thank you!

Do you still use tape for some projects, or do you work exclusively on digital formats these days? Do you like your stuff to be mastered onto tape, or are you happy to stay in the digital domain? Also do you prefer to listen to CDs or vinyl for pleasure, and what are your thoughts about the sonic integrity of D/L formats? I ask as i am about to go back to using 2"16 track and master onto 1/4" in my studio, after using digital for so many years.

How do you feel about this age old argument, and what do you feel about the different approaches?

Many thanks..

Drezz>>>

[ButchVig]

Originally Posted by drezz

Hi Butch,

Thanks for answering our questions, & thanks for your sterling work over the years, Nevermind & Siamese Dream especially are 2 standout classics that will be forever in the all time greats for me, that work alone is just outstanding..thank you!

Do you still use tape for some projects, or do you work exclusively on digital formats these days? Do you like your stuff to be mastered onto tape, or are you happy to stay in the digital domain? Also do you prefer to listen to CDs or vinyl for pleasure, and what are your thoughts about the sonic integrity of D/L formats? I ask as i am about to go back to using 2"16 track and master onto 1/4" in my studio, after using digital for so many years.

How do you feel about this age old argument, and what do you feel about the different approaches?

Many thanks..

Drezz>>>

I'm pretty much stay in Pro Tools these days. I will on occasion track something to tape and then transfer to PT. When we started Green Day, we did a shootout with tape and Pro Tools...after we had the first song tracked, Chris Dugan set the playback levels so we could flip between the two formats...the result...EVERYONE thought PT sounded WAY better! We were using kick ass pre amps, great eq's, and killer mics, and we were pretty happy with how it sounded. And to my ears, the PT playback sounded exactly like the input.

I listen to music everywhere, on my crappy laptop
in my crappy car stereo..
in my echo slap happy liviing room from an airtunes source...

My home studio sounds good, I've got a pair of Barefoots MM27'sand a pair of M-Audio EX66 that compliment each other.

When I working, I think it's important to listen in as many enviroments as possible so you know what's going on in the real world.

[Billy Bush]

Originally Posted by ButchVig

I'm pretty much stay in Pro Tools these days. I will on occasion track something to tape and then transfer to PT. When we started Green Day, we did a shootout with tape and Pro Tools...after we had the first song tracked, Chris Dugan set the playback levels so we could flip between the two formats...the result...EVERYONE thought PT sounded WAY better! We were using kick ass pre amps, great eq's, and killer mics, and we were pretty happy with how it sounded. And to my ears, the PT playback sounded exactly like the input.

I listen to music everywhere, on my crappy laptop
in my crappy car stereo..
in my echo slap happy liviing room from an airtunes source...

My home studio sounds good, I've got a pair of Barefoots MM27'sand a pair of M-Audio EX66 that compliment each other.

When I working, I think it's important to listen in as many enviroments as possible so you know what's going on in the real world.

I think we really had an epiphany during V2.0 regarding tape. Having spent a year working in the box and then mixing off of tape we realized how much time was spent rewinding and also how handy looping playback was. We really spent a lot of time on that record testing how it sounded coming back from PT and from tape and instead of just saying "it doesn't sound the same from the computer as it does on the tape" we just worked harder at making the sound on the computer sound cool.

The final straw for me was during mixing when the slave Studer's playback mechanism broke and it flew into some hyperspeed rewind and shred the multitrack for Temptation Waits. Luckily it happened during the fadeout and it sounded cool but it meant that half the song no longer existed.

Having spent a good part of the 14 months making that record battling the limitations of Pro Tools, OS 9 and processing power of the G4 at the time, I had come up with a robust way of backing up. I realized that no matter how annoying a computer crash may be, more often than not you can recover without any loss. IF you're proactive.

[ButchVig]

Originally Posted by Billy Bush

I think we really had an epiphany during V2.0 regarding tape. Having spent a year working in the box and then mixing off of tape we realized how much time was spent rewinding and also how handy looping playback was. We really spent a lot of time on that record testing how it sounded coming back from PT and from tape and instead of just saying "it doesn't sound the same from the computer as it does on the tape" we just worked harder at making the sound on the computer sound cool.

The final straw for me was during mixing when the slave Studer's playback mechanism broke and it flew into some hyperspeed rewind and shred the multitrack for Temptation Waits. Luckily it happened during the fadeout and it sounded cool but it meant that half the song no longer existed.

Having spent a good part of the 14 months making that record battling the limitations of Pro Tools, OS 9 and processing power of the G4 at the time, I had come up with a robust way of backing up. I realized that no matter how annoying a computer crash may be, more often than not you can recover without any loss. IF you're proactive.

BB..yeah that's a funny (and true) story....we watched in shock as the tape machine shredded the 2" tape....luckily we had just printed the mix, the only mix....and you can hear the tape machine speeding up on the end of the song! We debated if we should go back and make another slave reel with all the missing tracks, but we felt like it was as good of an ending as any, so we left it that way...

[kats]

Originally Posted by ButchVig

we did a shootout with tape and Pro Tools...after we had the first song tracked, Chris Dugan set the playback levels so we could flip between the two formats...the result...EVERYONE thought PT sounded WAY better!

Hi Butch!

Can you elaborate on that shootout because it's probably not the average opinion and it will be quoted here on GS for probably the next 10 years. What kind of R2R were you using, tape, ips, how hot, NR or not. And what sample rate and converter brand were you using for PT?

PS, it is very kind of you to share your experience on this forum.

Tony

[CosmeLiccardo]

Hi Butch! Thanks so much for taking the time to answer our questions! I'm a huge fan of your work! Nirvana's Nevermind marks my childhood in so many ways and Green Day is my all time favorite band!

How many years of experience did you have before you started producing major bands like Nirvana and work in amazing studios with amazing equipment? Do you still work mostly in Smart Studios?

Thanks again Butch it's a total honor man!

[ButchVig]

Originally Posted by kats

Hi Butch!

Can you elaborate on that shootout because it's probably not the average opinion and it will be quoted here on GS for probably the next 10 years. What kind of R2R were you using, tape, ips, how hot, NR or not. And what sample rate and converter brand were you using for PT?

PS, it is very kind of you to share your experience on this forum.

Tony

Chris Dugan can give you the technical info on how we did the shootout.

I know there are a lot of opinions on tape vs digital...in the end it's a matter of taste, and there is no right or wrong way to record, both formats sound good!

[Zooben]

Originally Posted by kats

Hi Butch!

Can you elaborate on that shootout because it's probably not the average opinion and it will be quoted here on GS for probably the next 10 years. What kind of R2R were you using, tape, ips, how hot, NR or not. And what sample rate and converter brand were you using for PT?

PS, it is very kind of you to share your experience on this forum.

Tony

Hi Tony, we tracked to both PT and tape for Drums and Bass, this was what we used:

Machine - Ampex ATR-124
Tape - GP9
ips - 30 for Drums 15 for Bass
NR - no
"how hot" - conservative
Sample Rate - 96K
Converters - Apogee AD16X / DA16X
Master Clock - BigBen

We had both analog and digital tracks in each session. So even while tracking vocals we could A/B between the two. Although after the GTRs and Bass were finished it became more obvious. In this instance, the tape seemed to kill the some of the transients on the drums. We did, however, end up using the Analog Bass tracks on a number of songs. I'm proud of the sounds we got on both formats, but ultimately it comes down to what works best in the song.

*just my opinion* : I like tape for what it does to what you put onto it. And on the other hand I like Pro Tools because what goes in comes out unaffected. In this case, what was going TO tape was what sounded the best. I was surprised myself and had to trust my ears. I haven't given up on Tape, if there was enough available I would take my MX80 everywhere with me.

[Barish]

Originally Posted by Billy Bush

The final straw for me was during mixing when the slave Studer's playback mechanism broke and it flew into some hyperspeed rewind and shred the multitrack for Temptation Waits. Luckily it happened during the fadeout and it sounded cool but it meant that half the song no longer existed.

Originally Posted by ButchVig

BB..yeah that's a funny (and true) story....we watched in shock as the tape machine shredded the 2" tape....luckily we had just printed the mix, the only mix....and you can hear the tape machine speeding up on the end of the song! We debated if we should go back and make another slave reel with all the missing tracks, but we felt like it was as good of an ending as any, so we left it that way...

Hahahahahaha!... Superb!

And you know, I always thought it was done on purpose...

Man, I've laughed so hard that it brought tears in my eyes... ah.... classic...

I'm literally picturing the moment in my mind and can't stop chuckling...

Thanks for sharing this. Amazing...

B.

[Jacek Gawlowski]

Originally Posted by ButchVig

When we started Green Day, we did a shootout with tape and Pro Tools...after we had the first song tracked, Chris Dugan set the playback levels so we could flip between the two formats...the result...EVERYONE thought PT sounded WAY better! We were using kick ass pre amps, great eq's, and killer mics, and we were pretty happy with how it sounded. And to my ears, the PT playback sounded exactly like the input.

Did you use Digidesign 192 I/O or something else for conversion?

Thx

Jacek

[Jacek Gawlowski]

Originally Posted by Jacek Gawłowski

Did you use Digidesign 192 I/O or something else for conversion?

Thx

Jacek

I can see it has been answered.Sorry.
Converters - Apogee AD16X / DA16X

JG

[superburtm]

Originally Posted by Jacek Gawłowski

Did you use Digidesign 192 I/O or something else for conversion?

Thx

Jacek

he lists apogee conversion in the above post

[mobius.media]

Butch, Chris Dugen said in the Green Day thread that drums and bass for that album were tracked to tape, and all else was Pro Tools.

Can you clarify if this was/wasn't the case?

[subatomicpieces]

Originally Posted by mobius.media

Butch, Chris Dugen said in the Green Day thread that drums and bass for that album were tracked to tape, and all else was Pro Tools.

Can you clarify if this was/wasn't the case?

Scroll up. Read the thread. Seems to have been clarified already. They tracked drums and bass to tape and digital simultaneously. The only thing from the tape tracks that was kept was the bass.

Originally Posted by Zooben

ips - 30 for Drums 15 for Bass

Whoa... how does that work? Were you just tracking "through" the tape machine and printing to digital off of the repro head as you tracked? I'm unclear about how you would track drums and bass at different speeds on the tape machine.

[kats]

Subatomicpeices brings up one more point.

When a/b ing tape vs PT, were you a/bing tape converted into PT to PT direct, OR playback off the repro (before conversion) to PT?