Lavry latency killer

[thehightenor]

Originally Posted by superwack

I'm sad to report it's nearly double that... $2,840 (posted in the New Products section by Marc Lavry)

Your joking - $2,840!

Looks like I'm sticking with my Mackie 1402, even though the unit looks very elegant.

[ben_allison]

That has to be a joke...

[ben_allison]

Considering what other top notch gear that much dough can buy, I just don't get it.

[solidstate]

2500$ street? It's still way too much.. But I believe that Mr. Lavry took the "no compromise" route here. Top end components and R&D do cost money.. I really would love to see a 1ch version "desktop"(non rack) version.. A lot of overdubs places record only one channel at the time anyway.. It needs to be portable so singers and musician can bring the unit with them. Keep the fx send/return and shave a couple of the 'fancy' features.. Set the price at around 1500$ and it will sell like hotcakes;-)

[antithesist]

That made my head explode (see ZFire's previous post). Oh, well.

[Fergies Watch]

as much as I like it, I won't be playing at the asking price..

back to using the studio 32 mixer for overdubbing

I agree a one channel cut down cheaper version may tempt more buyers.

[ben_allison]

What $2800 buys:

- a pair of Focal Twins
- an API 2500
- a pair of Distressors
- an A-Designs Hammer
- a Les Paul, JCM800 + cab
- a pair of R84's and an M160
- a pair of Coles 4038's and a Little Labs VOG
- a Dangerous Monitor ST and a 500 series module of your choosing
- etc, etc, etc

I'm sure it's well made, and of course he can charge what he wants. Doesn't affect my life at all... but you can get tons of great, hand built top notch gear that does tons of useful stuff for that price. When you can (already) just split a mic, and run that (all analogue) direct to the singer's cans, with really cheap gear, and still get all your tone to disk...

[thehightenor]

Originally Posted by ben_allison

When you can (already) just split a mic, and run that (all analogue) direct to the singer's cans, with really cheap gear, and still get all your tone to disk...

I was going to say in my last post $2,800 is a lot of money for what is essentially a mic splitter and a couple of headphone amps.

But I think that is disingenuous to this product.

I'm sure the headphones amps are very high quality, and there's a real art to splitting signals so that the signal is not effected in any negative way.

Then there's the nice rack box with the funky lights, it all adds cost .... hopefully the street price will be a bit more affordable.

[Tom H]

The product and it's price do make sense for the folks using nothing but the best mics, pres, converters etc. If you are willing to spend up to 10K on a converter alone why spoil it's benefits by using an inferior monitor path.

I think it's cool that a manufacter chooses to make a product like this and makes it as perfect as possible. There are of course plenty of alternatives out there but no solution is as "high end" as this one.

[ben_allison]

Originally Posted by Tom H

The product and it's price do make sense for the folks using nothing but the best mics, pres, converters etc. If you are willing to spend up to 10K on a converter alone why spoil it's benefits by using an inferior monitor path.

I think it's cool that a manufacter chooses to make a product like this and makes it as perfect as possible. There are of course plenty of alternatives out there but no solution is as "high end" as this one.

Most of those people likely have consoles?

And how critically is someone analyzing the sonics of what's coming through their headphones while they're performing an overdub?

[Tom H]

Well it's not so much a tool for big old skool recording studio's with noisy consoles and tapemachines... I am thinking more in the direction of mastering places which would like to facilitate overdubs, or the recording enthusiast with a matched pair of Brauner KHE's, EAR preamps and Lavry Golds. And his Stax or Grado headphones of course ;-)

No serious, the market for this might seem niche, it's definitely there and with a reason.

[ben_allison]

Originally Posted by Tom H

Well it's not so much a tool for big old skool recording studio's with noisy consoles and tapemachines... I am thinking more in the direction of mastering places which would like to facilitate overdubs, or the recording enthusiast with a matched pair of Brauner KHE's, EAR preamps and Lavry Golds. And his Stax or Grado headphones of course ;-)

No serious, the market for this might seem niche, it's definitely there and with a reason.

It if makes one person's life easier, I guess it's worth it! Best of luck to all involved!

[Kenny Gioia]

I'm getting tired of all the "New Products" posts turning into a game of:

"It's Too Expensive".

Then don't buy it. Build your own.

What do you honestly think your adding by knocking these products and someone's work on that product?

Ever build something yourself and take it to market?

It ain't cheap fellas. And just because you can steal all the music you want on Pirate Bay or Media share, doesn't mean that that's what fair market value is.

The only thing that this stuff does is motivate someone like Dan Lavry to:

1. Stop making great products.

2. Start making products with Mackie or Behringer specs.

3. Stop posting the announcement here at Gearslutz.

4. Stop being a member at this site and answering questions about the product.

None of these things are remotely what we want.

Yes. My friends. These things cost money to build, market and sell.

And just because you can sign up to a forum, doesn't make you a professional.

There is a market for this product. True. It's probably not for the home recorder who is using a Mackie to get the job done now but that's irrelevant.

If the product is not for you. Just move the freak on.

Dan Lavry (and Steven Slate etc) deserve better.

(rant off)

[Fergies Watch]

hmmm

Kenny,

99 people see smoke coming out of a house on the street, 1 person doesn't....

Is the house really on fire ??

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia

I'm getting tired of all the "New Products" posts turning into a game...

...Dan Lavry (and Steven Slate etc) deserve better.

Me too!

[ben_allison]

This is a forum, and criticism is part of that experience.

No one's complaining or trolling. Sometimes criticism is beneficial. People can read or not, just like they can buy or not.

[Fergies Watch]

In the real world we can pick a product up, smell it, shake it, see if it does what it says on the tin.

Unfortunately in the world of the internet we only have statements, opinions and questions to drill into a product, how it works, benefits, value etc and reviews once it's released to the public...

I'm pretty sure Mr Lavry or Mr Slate would not even post new products if they didn't think the benefits far outweighed the risks. ( free marketing - $$$$ anyone ?? oh that's right, they do it for free)

Surely you are not so green as to think that just because these guys are household names within the industry that somehow their products should not up for testing or debate, or that they deserve iconic "PROTECTION" from dare I say a potential customer that just wants to explore FAB's of their products, or lack of.

I'm pretty sure they don't want that either and relish the opportunity to protect their product through effective discussion / debate in order to sway those customers that have either got the wrong idea about their product or simply do not understand how it works or it's intended audience, into maybe eventually buying their product.

If anything this gives the product a significantly better chance of succeeding does it not ?

Don't let elitist attitudes overrule what is in its most basic form, " Freedom of speech " and the right to have an " opinion "

I'm fairly sure these " opinions" are not personal attacks as I'm sure both guys are splendid people in real life, but honest feedback from potential customers, whether they be pro or amateur and in YOUR opinion right or wrong will remain an integral part of new product discussion online wehter you or I like it or not.

cheers
Stu.

[dbjp]

People wouldn't be talking smack to the designers if they met in person.
You wouldn't list alternative, completely irrelevant products to say how much better value for money they are at the price, if you met any of them in person.
It would simply be a case of saying, 'hey, great product. Wish I could afford it, but I can't. Good luck with it!' Or something in that vein.
It's not about freedom of speech, it's about respecting peers in the same business you work in, or for some, dream of working in.

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by dbjp

People wouldn't be talking smack to the designers if they met in person.
You wouldn't list alternative, completely irrelevant products to say how much better value for money they are at the price, if you met any of them in person.
It would simply be a case of saying, 'hey, great product. Wish I could afford it, but I can't. Good luck with it!' Or something in that vein.
It's not about freedom of speech, it's about respecting peers in the same business you work in, or for some, dream of working in.

Exactly!!!!!

To be clear, I am not for one teensy tiny infinitesimal second saying that these products shouldn't be criticized or that we shouldn't compare them to others or list ways it could be possibly improved.

But it always seems to come down to price. $$$$$$

And that's just BS as far as I'm concerned.

There's not a single product made today that the public wouldn't want to be cheaper. Not one. Which is why companies like Walmart and Apple will make their products in impoverished countries and we buy them up without a single feeling of moral responsibility to the chain.

Everything has a cost. And we all know that Lavry is not turning a huge profit on these things. They're trying to make a living. If he could make the product for $500, I assure you he would.

I'm asking for civility and common decency. There's a reason that conventions aren't always open to the public. Manufacturers prefer to deal with consumers who are actually interested in their products. Rather than just throwing rocks at them.

Thanks.

[Chris Wilson]

Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia

I'm getting tired of all the "New Products" posts turning into a game of:

"It's Too Expensive".

Then don't buy it. Build your own.

What do you honestly think your adding by knocking these products and someone's work on that product?

Ever build something yourself and take it to market?

It ain't cheap fellas. And just because you can steal all the music you want on Pirate Bay or Media share, doesn't mean that that's what fair market value is.

The only thing that this stuff does is motivate someone like Dan Lavry to:

1. Stop making great products.

2. Start making products with Mackie or Behringer specs.

3. Stop posting the announcement here at Gearslutz.

4. Stop being a member at this site and answering questions about the product.

None of these things are remotely what we want.

Yes. My friends. These things cost money to build, market and sell.

And just because you can sign up to a forum, doesn't make you a professional.

There is a market for this product. True. It's probably not for the home recorder who is using a Mackie to get the job done now but that's irrelevant.

If the product is not for you. Just move the freak on.

Dan Lavry (and Steven Slate etc) deserve better.

(rant off)

This post is right on. I for one, am definitely in the market for this piece, if the headphone amps can drive my HiFi Man HE-6's. We'll see. For those working on a Mackie mixer, this product is pretty much overkill. That's not Dan's fault.

[ben_allison]

Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia

But it always seems to come down to price. $$$$$$

With every product there are two things to consider: what it does and what it costs. That's really it. So... of course price comes up.

I don't care about raw dollars, per se, but what I get for those dollars. What's the value? If the thing I desperately need costs $20,000, then it's a great value.

We also understand value based on what people are willing to spend on similar or related products. This gives us a gauge of the economics involved in a particular industry.

If I was in a room with a builder, and they told me X cost Y, I'd have the same conversation. You can ask questions and be critical without being an asshole. What's tough in a forum is that everyone's usually an asshole, so that sets the baseline.

[dbjp]

Originally Posted by ben_allison

With every product there are two things to consider: what it does and what it costs. That's really it. So... of course price comes up.

I don't care about raw dollars, per se, but what I get for those dollars. What's the value? If the thing I desperately need costs $20,000, then it's a great value.

We also understand value based on what people are willing to spend on similar or related products. This gives us a gauge of the economics involved in a particular industry.

If I was in a room with a builder, and they told me X cost Y, I'd have the same conversation. You can ask questions and be critical without being an asshole. What's tough in a forum is that everyone's usually an asshole, so that sets the baseline.

I disagree wholeheartedly, but laughed nonetheless reading your last sentence.

[Fergies Watch]

Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia

Exactly!!!!!

To be clear, I am not for one teensy tiny infinitesimal second saying that these products shouldn't be criticized or that we shouldn't compare them to others or list ways it could be possibly improved.

But it always seems to come down to price. $$$$$$

And that's just BS as far as I'm concerned.

There's not a single product made today that the public wouldn't want to be cheaper. Not one. Which is why companies like Walmart and Apple will make their products in impoverished countries and we buy them up without a single feeling of moral responsibility to the chain.

Everything has a cost. And we all know that Lavry is not turning a huge profit on these things. They're trying to make a living. If he could make the product for $500, I assure you he would.

I'm asking for civility and common decency. There's a reason that conventions aren't always open to the public. Manufacturers prefer to deal with consumers who are actually interested in their products. Rather than just throwing rocks at them.

Thanks.

obviously money is no option in your world Kenny if you have that attitude, money never matters until there is non or not enough to buy the nice things in life.

Look, all manufacturers are in it for FIRSTLY money, then the rest follows.

Dream on if you think for 1 tiny second that at a mark up of 2.8k for this there isn't significant profit here per piece.

This goes for a lot of today's pro audio equipment, where a ripped off schematic and a few tubes or transformers equates to a 3k piece of gear.

As an aspiring "home musician" I for one will have to save for 3 years to buy a high end channel strip..... As I said originally, I LOVE the product, but I cannot afford it right now

[popmann]

I'm thinking, how on earth did we make records before:

Summing mixers
Rack mic preamps
Control surfaces
Dedicated cue mixers (represented here)
Monitor controllers

...and I'm thinking, "wouldn't it be cool if there was like a single piece of kit that did all of the above?" Maybe it could even be used to patch outboard and EQ out unnecessary frequencies on the way INTO the recorder during tracking. Man, that would be agreat piece of kit. Someone should invent something like that.

[dbjp]

Dream on if you think for 1 tiny second that at a mark up of 2.8k for this there isn't significant profit here per piece.

200 bucks for parts, manufacturing, r&d, warranty, etc? Lavry's even more of a genius than I thought..
Sigh..

[ben_allison]

Originally Posted by dbjp

I disagree wholeheartedly, but laughed nonetheless reading your last sentence.

Lol nice!

So, what did you disagree with?

- that the two primary issues related to a product's position in the market place are price and features?

- that if something perfectly meets your needs, it offers value regardless of cost?

- that market conditions, such as competing products, determine fair prices?

- that I wouldn't have a frank discussion face to face with a product designer?

Which of those points do you disagree with, and why?

[Daniel Stark]

the auto-replace-audio thing sounds slick.

manley backbone costs twice as much...this could have been a $5,000+ unit like that one.

plus what's the big deal, $2,500, boo hoo, the vocalist's time is worth more than that.

(not that I have the $$ to drop on it until my album goes gold or i get a "real" job but still....)

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by ben_allison

With every product there are two things to consider: what it does and what it costs. That's really it. So... of course price comes up.

I don't care about raw dollars, per se, but what I get for those dollars. What's the value? If the thing I desperately need costs $20,000, then it's a great value.

We also understand value based on what people are willing to spend on similar or related products. This gives us a gauge of the economics involved in a particular industry.

If I was in a room with a builder, and they told me X cost Y, I'd have the same conversation. You can ask questions and be critical without being an asshole. What's tough in a forum is that everyone's usually an asshole, so that sets the baseline.

While price is certainly a concern to everyone interested in this product, if you can't afford it, it wasn't made for you. Use the Mackie or internal routing thingie. This is a high end piece. A Neumann U47 can cost 8k to 10k. Can you get a great vocal sound with a 3k microphone? Sure. But if you don't have the money to spend, you (not you specifically) have no business knocking the company that makes the 10k microphone. You're not the person this was designed for. Move on.

I don't drive a 250k Ferrari. But I also don't go to Ferrari forums to insult those car makers and make claim that they're too expensive or a waste of money.

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by Fergies Watch

obviously money is no option in your world Kenny if you have that attitude, money never matters until there is non or not enough to buy the nice things in life.

Money is an issue in my life. So I invest well. Buying only equipment that will make me money. If you don't make money producing music, then this piece may not be for you. Although it's a great piece for anyone who can afford it.

Originally Posted by Fergies Watch

Look, all manufacturers are in it for FIRSTLY money, then the rest follows.

I don't agree. I don't do what I do for the money. I need the money to continue to do it but it's not why I do it. That's what bankers and lawyers do.

Originally Posted by Fergies Watch

Dream on if you think for 1 tiny second that at a mark up of 2.8k for this there isn't significant profit here per piece.

Sorry dude. You're wrong. Why don't you go price what it costs to design a piece like this. Not just the components. Everything. Every piece custom designed and machined. It's a professional product.

Originally Posted by Fergies Watch

This goes for a lot of today's pro audio equipment, where a ripped off schematic and a few tubes or transformers equates to a 3k piece of gear.

You sound like the guy who complains when a restaurant charges $50 for a steak when you can buy the same thing in the supermarket for $10. Do you understand how business works? The infrastructure needed to get that steak on your plate? Do you think the restaurant is just pocketing $40?

Originally Posted by Fergies Watch

As an aspiring "home musician" I for one will have to save for 3 years to buy a high end channel strip..... As I said originally, I LOVE the product, but I cannot afford it right now

Then there's no reason to claim it's too expensive. It's just not right for you.

all the best.

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by ben_allison

That has to be a joke...

Originally Posted by ben_allison

Considering what other top notch gear that much dough can buy, I just don't get it.

Originally Posted by ben_allison

I'm sure it's well made, and of course he can charge what he wants. Doesn't affect my life at all... but you can get tons of great, hand built top notch gear that does tons of useful stuff for that price. When you can (already) just split a mic, and run that (all analogue) direct to the singer's cans, with really cheap gear, and still get all your tone to disk...

Originally Posted by ben_allison

You can ask questions and be critical without being an asshole. What's tough in a forum is that everyone's usually an asshole, so that sets the baseline.

Not sure of the point you're making here.