Slate Pro Audio Introduces THE RAVEN MTX Multi-Touch Production System

[Dave.R]

Originally Posted by SBX-80

I believe it was Henry Ford who once said "If I’d asked my customers what they wanted, they’d have said a faster horse".

i think he gave them what they wanted, as iPad or any successful product would do

the magic is knowing and understanding what your customer wants/needs then multiplying that by 10

they didn't want faster horses, they wanted faster transportation

give it to them in spades

[Bob Olhsson]

Newer doesn't necessarily mean better any more than vintage does. My opinion is that consoles have suffered two steps backward for each step forward a great many times since they reached what I've always considered to be their peak of functionality during the early1970s.

Hence my skepticism.

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by AudioDevil

Like anything new you have to get used to it and most of you would probably frown upon it before trying it.. For all you know you might actually end up changing your opinion after using a product like the Raven and prefer mixing with touchscreen faders

But it's not about new. I've been using Pro Tools with a mouse for almost 20 years. I just find real faders to be better. And I'm not alone.

I'm not saying it's better for everyone but there is a real controller market out there that does nothing other than control volume with faders. There's a demand.

I'm hoping that Slate has made the experience better so we can all switch. I could care less about having a controller if a surface is as good or better.

[thenoodle]

We're definitely in a transitional phase here with touch. Can't speak for the Raven of course but here is sort of where the day to day limits are...

If I'm on a 3m with the display set up horizontally, touch is easy in a mixing motion, but you have to look to see where the faders are in order to actually place your fingers. Which is not ideal when you're riding several faders at mix.

Same thing for knobs.

A physical gel type overlay separating the finger areas allows you to keep your fingers on a separate travel path, but again, you have to look at the virtual faders regularly to keep your fingers on them (rather than closing your eyes to visualize the mix while you ride the faders.

The upcoming solution is flexible glass that morphs into "real" faders and knobs so that you immediately "feel" them. No Joe Blow is gonna get that happening in the market soon since the ENTIRE patents for rising surfaces on glass are owned by two companies. And Apple is one of them.

And it's not even glass. But rather some material that feels exactly like glass but can morph into various shape areas.

And neither company has plans to massively introduce working products for another 2 years or so. Although the first patent holder has some demo things to show what's coming.

In the meantime, I think touch is fantastic and plan to use it with the 3m where I can (once I can adapt Cubase and win 8 via the 3m dev kit).

For "tactile feel in the touch world"... we're still a bit early. But at least the "rising glass" technology exists. I think we'll get to a very cool, stable place with it in the next six years or so.

[chk23]

Originally Posted by thenoodle

We're definitely in a transitional phase here with touch. Can't speak for the Raven of course but here is sort of where the day to day limits are...

If I'm on a 3m with the display set up horizontally, touch is easy in a mixing motion, but you have to look to see where the faders are in order to actually place your fingers. Which is not ideal when you're riding several faders at mix.

Same thing for knobs.

A physical gel type overlay separating the finger areas allows you to keep your fingers on a separate travel path, but again, you have to look at the virtual faders regularly to keep your fingers on them (rather than closing your eyes to visualize the mix while you ride the faders.

The upcoming solution is flexible glass that morphs into "real" faders and knobs so that you immediately "feel" them. No Joe Blow is gonna get that happening in the market soon since the ENTIRE patents for rising surfaces on glass are owned by two companies. And Apple is one of them.

But this is not the only upcoming technology in this field - this, for example, allows not only inducing friction and resistance but even the simulation of different textures and surfaces.

[The Vulture]

Well.

I am just a voice.

IF I am negative there is a reason for that..
I believe slate knows what he is doing.
Let's see the actual price/specs..

I will not deny that I see this drama as fun.
But it is not even close to a hobby yet

Cheers

[nuthinupmysleeve]

Originally Posted by SBX-80

I believe it was Henry Ford who once said "If I’d asked my customers what they wanted, they’d have said a faster horse".

That's exactly right... that's exactly why someone will create something better. You can delve into objectives and ignore the "how" to really create a new way to do something that may turn out better. It's very hard to forget the "how"... in this case, faders and knobs... because it's what we know. Now the technology exists to create something beyond.

[CeretoneAudio]

Originally Posted by CaptainHook

Yeah, as far as i understand you can't patent ideas, only the execution of them if it's unique enough and not obvious enough.

But i think Bob was commenting on "The biggest shock that my team and I had at AES was that no one else had a similar concept... Because it seemed so obvious!" part by recalling someone else did have a similar concept, probably just too early for the market being 5-6 years ago.

The reason no one else had a similar concept at AES is because they are smart enough to realize that a move towards a less functional controller based purely on touch screen technology needs to be SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper than a tactile controller to have any chance at market penetration.

For example consider Avid Artist Control vs V-Control Pro

(Both 8 channel controllers)

Avid Artist Control - $1200
V-Control Pro - $50

To try and base the price of this on an established tactile control surface such as the ICON is quite frankly ...INSANE

As was pointed out earlier in this thread there are already numerous Live consoles with touch capability - these systems are designed in conjunction with professionals and FOR A REASON have tactile controls along side touch screen interface.

Being able to turn the screens off and MIX i.e. listen to nothing but the music like they did in the old days - is what its all about here .. That's what people want and that's the reason for a control surface - turn the screen off and mix the fukkin music biatch!- who the hell wants to be locked into sitting 50cm away from a 46 inch TV for 10 hours a day

[chk23]

Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve

That's exactly right... that's exactly why someone will create something better. You can delve into objectives and ignore the "how" to really create a new way to do something that may turn out better. It's very hard to forget the "how"... in this case, faders and knobs... because it's what we know. Now the technology exists to create something beyond.

Imho this technology doesn't exist yet - at least not outside some research labs. As long as it misses tactile response, it's not "beyond", it just offers some advantages on the one side (flexibility) while adding some disadvantages on the other side (missing tactile response).

[Steven Slate]

Originally Posted by CeretoneAudio

To try and base the price of this on an established tactile control surface such as the ICON is quite frankly ...INSANE

Completely disagree. The RAVEN can do everything the ICON can do but a lot more. And I'd rival its state of the art analog monitor section against any console on the market at any price.

Originally Posted by CeretoneAudio

and FOR A REASON have tactile controls along side touch screen interface.

The reason is because large touch screen technologies that are viable for audio applications have just been introduced within the past few months, such as the technology we use on the RAVEN. I understand that you are a professional who has only mixed on tactile faders, but I predict that this need for tactile response will vanish for many people as they start working full session on the Raven's touch screen. I've been mixing on the Raven for a few weeks after using hardware faders for over a decade. I honestly don't miss it. In fact I don't think about it anymore. I'm making music faster and more efficiently than ever.

Originally Posted by CeretoneAudio

Being able to turn the screens off and MIX i.e. listen to nothing but the music like they did in the old days - is what its all about here .. That's what people want and that's the reason for a control surface - turn the screen off and mix the fukkin music biatch!- who the hell wants to be locked into sitting 50cm away from a 46 inch TV for 10 hours a day

This would be great if we were in the old days. But with that screen turned off, it's gonna be a bitch to tweak those eq plugins and switch out that compressor plugin for a new one. But I understand this is how you prefer to work and that's fine. I don't mind having the screen on because as soon as the neurons in my brain get a signal from my ears signaling that a change needs to be made, I want to reach out and make that change. Furthermore, in order to close your eyes and "mix", I'm assuming you still need to look down at the console. Well, with the RAVEN it's the same thing, but the console is on the screen in front of you rather than below you ripe for comb filtering.

When mixing on a touchscreen or any device, you are free to close your eyes and listen, ride faders with eyes closed, move knobs or touch knobs with eyes closed... it's all gravy.

The big surprise people will soon find out after working on the RAVEN is that it's just not that much different than working on an analog desk.

Cheers,
Steven

[Yuri Kogan]

Originally Posted by Steven Slate

When mixing on a touchscreen or any device, you are free to close your eyes and listen, ride faders with eyes closed, move knobs or touch knobs with eyes closed... it's all gravy.

The big surprise people will soon find out after working on the RAVEN is that it's just not that much different than working on an analog desk.

Cheers,
Steven

Without some touch feedback - doubt that. You can do that with say a Tango with its motorised faders - not blindly pocking at a flat screen. And I am sure you will admit that it would be doubly tiring in front of a large screen - unless you want a tan.
Not being able to rest your arms is another minus as arms get tired rested on a console let alone reaching across to a 45 degree screen.
Plus this tech will become outdated by June - dead investment at the price indicated. Even Tango is ~$8k with "expensive motorised faders, touch screen... add a Dangerous or Grace or CSong controller and you have a superiour system already

[Steven Slate]

Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan

Without some touch feedback - doubt that. You can do that with say a Tango with its motorised faders - not blindly pocking at a flat screen. And I am sure you will admit that it would be doubly tiring in front of a large screen - unless you want a tan.
Not being able to rest your arms is another minus as arms get tired rested on a console let alone reaching across to a 45 degree screen.
Plus this tech will become outdated by June - dead investment at the price indicated. Even Tango is ~$8k with "expensive motorised faders, touch screen... add a Dangerous or Grace or CSong controller and you have a superiour system already

Hi Yuri, it's exactly the same on hardware or software:

Hardware: you look at the fader you want to ride, grab it, then close eyes and ride it.

Software Touchscreen: Same thing. I really don't get this argument at all.

You will not get a tan from our backlit LED commercial screen that is cool to the touch and is optimized for close use.

You can rest your arms on the arm rest and ride the faders at the bottom of the screen with ease.

The Tango is a far different unit that does not allow you direct access to you DAW on a touchscreen, nor your plugin GUIs, nor your edit windows, nor does it have a lot of the features that the RAVEN has such as nanoglide glass, remote monitor section, under 5ms response... I could go on about their differences but it makes more sense to research the two products.

As for an investment, the RAVEN surpasses it's competition due to the fact that it does not rely on hardware to control the DAW, but rather software that can be easily adapted to new DAWs, updated easily, and customized.

I'd be happy for you to actually work on a RAVEN and then give feedback. I think you'll find that your assumptions are way off.

Cheers,
Steven

[Yuri Kogan]

Originally Posted by Steven Slate

Hi Yuri, it's exactly the same on hardware or software:

Hardware: you look at the fader you want to ride, grab it, then close eyes and ride it.

Software Touchscreen: Same thing. I really don't get this argument at all.

You will not get a tan from our backlit LED commercial screen that is cool to the touch and is optimized for close use.

You can rest your arms on the arm rest and ride the faders at the bottom of the screen with ease.

The Tango is a far different unit that does not allow you direct access to you DAW on a touchscreen, nor your plugin GUIs, nor your edit windows, nor does it have a lot of the features that the RAVEN has such as nanoglide glass, remote monitor section, under 5ms response... I could go on about their differences but it makes more sense to research the two products.

As for an investment, the RAVEN surpasses it's competition due to the fact that it does not rely on hardware to control the DAW, but rather software that can be easily adapted to new DAWs, updated easily, and customized.

I'd be happy for you to actually work on a RAVEN and then give feedback. I think you'll find that your assumptions are way off.

Cheers,
Steven

Steven
I understand where you are coming from.
You should probably look at the Tango, especially V2 - I think you are somewhat off the mark with some of the comments. But irrespective its a good controller in its own right, even if it is somewhat different from the Raven. But you do have control of plugins, inserts... I know - I have V1.

As I type this I am sitting at arms length from a 27" monitor, which is cool to the touch. But I have to look away regularly because of the radiation. Being close to a bigger screen is even worst. I do contract engineering design work and there I heard of legal claims due to sight damage because of long term exposure to the screens - this is a well known issue.

With the arms rest - If you have seen pics of our studio 2 (Black Pearl Studios |) you will see that the mixing position has been designed to allow fully ergonomic positioning of engineer's arms. Even then people complaine if there is an angle and they have to hold the hands up for a while to tough the Tango's screen. I presume this is one of the reasons that most engineers end up using a mouse instead.

I am fully supportive of this product, believe me. I think this is a very good use of current tech and feel that it has potential. But I feel that this product would be much more usefull if it had some haptic feedback (that would eliminate the desire for moving faders) and a simple hinge allowing to tilt the main panel to a suitable angle. That should extend its life cycle and would justify the cost. Also an option without the monitor section would allow to keep the cost lower (with ability to upgrade). And of course a smaller version which will fit into existing workstation spaces will give it a bigger market.
Just my $.02

[dbjp]

User adjustable screen IS something I'd prefer. Slate Pro Audio can have a 'recommended' spec, of course, but it would surely suit people of all sizes and preferences by having it adjustable.
Something like ergotron:

[Demor]

Originally Posted by Steven Slate

Completely disagree. The RAVEN can do everything the ICON can do but a lot more.....

OK, it can do alot more....?

Originally Posted by Steven Slate

This would be great if we were in the old days. But with that screen turned off, it's gonna be a bitch to tweak those eq plugins and switch out that compressor plugin for a new one. ....

Well, the Icon manages that just fine sir.......

Originally Posted by Steven Slate

.....but the console is on the screen in front of you rather than below you ripe for comb filtering.....

Placing a console in a CR usually takes away the comp filtering from the floor, and it has to be really poorly disigned to introduce any others...........so ......?

[ghostwriter]

Steven,

Just a suggestion.

It would be nice to have an option to quickly toggle the timeline (or anything else that stays or opens at the top of the screen) down to the lower section of the screen. This would reduce having to reach across the screen to select or adjust those items that stay at the top.

The Ghost

[nuthinupmysleeve]

Originally Posted by chk23

Imho this technology doesn't exist yet - at least not outside some research labs. As long as it misses tactile response, it's not "beyond", it just offers some advantages on the one side (flexibility) while adding some disadvantages on the other side (missing tactile response).

There already are screens that offer tactile response. Very expensive, but they exist, and they will get cheaper. Beyond that, the screen is just the beginning.

You're right, as of now, the technology doesn't really exist, but the point is it will exist and it won't be too far away IMHO.

[Steven Slate]

Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan

As I type this I am sitting at arms length from a 27" monitor, which is cool to the touch. But I have to look away regularly because of the radiation. Being close to a bigger screen is even worst. I do contract engineering design work and there I heard of legal claims due to sight damage because of long term exposure to the screens - this is a well known issue.

Hi Yuri. In terms of radiation, this is not an issue and there are standards for this in which the RAVEN must pass, and it does. For eyesight, we have developed the GUI and the display in a manner where it is comfortable on the eyes. Many people who have worked on it have claimed this to be the case. Having said that, it's always a good idea to give your eyes a rest. And this is something I'd recommend to anyone who works with their eyes constantly... even someone reading a novel should get eye rest at least every half an hour.

Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan

With the arms rest - If you have seen pics of our studio 2 (Black Pearl Studios |) you will see that the mixing position has been designed to allow fully ergonomic positioning of engineer's arms. Even then people complaine if there is an angle and they have to hold the hands up for a while to tough the Tango's screen. I presume this is one of the reasons that most engineers end up using a mouse instead.

The RAVEN is actually not as big as people imagine, and your arms have easy reach to anything on the screen. Since much of your movements are on the bottom faders with your arms on the rest, it's really not tiresome at all.

Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan

I am fully supportive of this product, believe me. I think this is a very good use of current tech and feel that it has potential. But I feel that this product would be much more usefull if it had some haptic feedback

I realize that as people who have grown up using things that have haptic feedback, it's hard for our brains to imagine not having it. But in reality, you'll likely find that it's not necessary to perform the functions of the audio mixer and studio. As you move the RAVEN's faders, pans, press its buttons, transport control... you quickly forget about haptic feedback. It's just not important. What ends up happening.. is you just become entrenched in your music.

Originally Posted by Demor

Well, the Icon manages that just fine sir.......

This quote was about the ability to turn off the display and just use the ICON to mix and use plugins. And my argument as someone who has mixed on one, is that I would pull my hair out if I wanted to push 2khz up on my snare drum and I had to sit there and examine the logic controllers to find out where my gain, frequency, and bandwidth functions were. In fact, I had a hard time with that even with the screen on. There is no comparison with the speed of reaching out and grabbing the virtual knobs directly on your plugin eq.

Originally Posted by Demor

Placing a console in a CR usually takes away the comp filtering from the floor, and it has to be really poorly disigned to introduce any others...........so ......?

Not true. A flat console under you is an acoustical nightmare at times. Famed acoustician Wes Lachot praised the RAVEN's angle for the fact that it would eliminate the comb filtering caused by large flat surfaces such as analog desks.

Originally Posted by ghostwriter

Steven,

Just a suggestion.

It would be nice to have an option to quickly toggle the timeline (or anything else that stays or opens at the top of the screen) down to the lower section of the screen. This would reduce having to reach across the screen to select or adjust those items that stay at the top.

The Ghost

Ghost I believe we do have some timeline functions that can be placed anywhere on the screen.

Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve

There already are screens that offer tactile response. Very expensive, but they exist, and they will get cheaper. Beyond that, the screen is just the beginning.

You're right, as of now, the technology doesn't really exist, but the point is it will exist and it won't be too far away IMHO.

If the technology becomes affordable (and I imagine it will be about 3 to 4 years), it can easily be incorporated into the RAVEN via an upgrade.

Cheers,
Steven

[youngfreak]

For all the people complaining about bright screens I'd like to recommend Flux; it's free and a life changer!

f.lux: software to make your life better

[silverking]

Steven, you don't seem to be listening to your customers, but are instead going to great lengths to inform them that their thinking is "wrong", and your thinking is "right".

When you're introducing a product which has no real equal in the marketplace (which, in effect you are) there's never a better time to "get it right".....effectively placing all the bootleggers and pirates in a never ending position of trying to catch up.

My pennies worth, take it or toss it (but if I were you, at the very least I'd start acknowledging the validity of what my customers were taking the time to tell me!).

[MesS!eR35]

Originally Posted by AudioDevil

My view is I don't really care about real faders or touch screen controls. What care about is which lets me achieve the vision quicker. The fact people ague about buttons and dials Is just silly. It's about the music. Personally prefer touch screen, it's quicker. The distance between idea and reality is much shorter than rolling across the room to fiddle with something.

if we consider virtual instruments to be a reality

[thenoodle]

Originally Posted by chk23

But this is not the only upcoming technology in this field - this, for example, allows not only inducing friction and resistance but even the simulation of different textures and surfaces.

That one is part of the Apple patent. They have a second one where the surface raises and lowers in spots too. Not surprised the link is Disney. Apple and Disney share a common bond that probably goes way beyond Steve Jobs now.

I spose a decade from now, you'll be able to sit at home watching a Disney movie and reach out to muss up the lead actor's hair with your fingers. Or feel the blood on the knife that just killed Mr Bad Guy in the latest teen horror flick.

We're into cool new horizons of which none of us can yet fully visualize the possibilities for touch. Mixers are kid's stuff... but hey... that's what we get for being alive back here in the old days.

[noiseflaw]

Originally Posted by silverking

Steven, you don't seem to be listening to your customers, but are instead going to great lengths to inform them that their thinking is "wrong", and your thinking is "right".

A Camel is a Horse - designed by committee...

If Slate were to listen to all the responses contributing to alter his design to suit their needs, it is likely the Raven would cost twice as much and be a disaster...

Let the market judge it's usefulness.

[Steven Slate]

Originally Posted by silverking

Steven, you don't seem to be listening to your customers, but are instead going to great lengths to inform them that their thinking is "wrong", and your thinking is "right".

Quite the opposite. We've had a lot of pros who have expressed interest in purchasing a RAVEN come to our showroom and try it out. We've received a lot of valuable feedback and we are implementing ideas and tweaks every day. You'll have to understand that I take this type of feedback from these folks far more seriously than people on the internet who have never used the RAVEN MTX. Please do not take that offensively as it's not intended to be rude. But if you were in my shoes, what would you do?

Originally Posted by noiseflaw

A Camel is a Horse - designed by committee...

If Slate were to listen to all the responses contributing to alter his design to suit their needs, it is likely the Raven would cost twice as much and be a disaster...

Let the market judge it's usefulness.

Right on.

Cheers,
Steven

[silverking]

Originally Posted by Steven Slate

. But if you were in my shoes, what would you do?

Cheers,
Steven

Exactly what you're doing, all the while profoundly listening to every potential customer, and taking the time to thank anybody who even bothered to take the time to make a comment!

Such is the appropriate upbeat and positive attitude of manufacturers who maintain a frequent internet forum presence such as you do.

[Timwaldvogel]

I am impressed that such a new product could stir up such a large thread in a matter of a month or two

[nuthinupmysleeve]

Originally Posted by Steven Slate

If the technology becomes affordable (and I imagine it will be about 3 to 4 years), it can easily be incorporated into the RAVEN via an upgrade.

Hardware and software upgrade.. won't be cheap though! But for those who can afford this price point, no worries.

[nuthinupmysleeve]

Originally Posted by Timwaldvogel

I am impressed that such a new product could stir up such a large thread in a matter of a month or two

Ya know, and it's been mostly good conversation too.

[Steven Slate]

Originally Posted by silverking

Exactly what you're doing, all the while profoundly listening to every potential customer, and taking the time to thank anybody who even bothered to take the time to make a comment!

Such is the appropriate upbeat and positive attitude of manufacturers who maintain a frequent internet forum presence such as you do.

Haha I'm trying! I absolutely don't want anyone to think that I am ignoring feedback simply because they are on an internet forum.. I wouldn't be here if this was the case. My point is that I'm not going to pack up shop if someone here who has never experienced the machine says "This won't work without tactile feedback" when I have an actual pro user in our showroom as I write this who just said "I love the slick touch faders they are great!". So I'm listening, I'm learning, and I'm processing data as I see fit!

Cheers and THANK YOU to everyone for this great discussion!

Steven

[Remoteness]

Steven,

I appreciate you, your efforts and this open discussion.

I look forward to having a go at it some day soon.

I'm curious how this device would fair in the mobile and location world I live in;-)