Reason 6.5 and Rack Extensions from Propellerhead is out!
#31
19th June 2012
Old 19th June 2012
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ersheff View Post
Is it possible that ADC is not mentioned because it's not needed in the Reason architecture?
For instance, if Extensions are a different animal from VST/AU/etc and are subject to precise specifications by Propellerhead, perhaps ADC is not needed. After all, Extensions aren't "true" plugins. (that's how they're being marketed, anyway )
Don't be silly ADC is needed of course it's needed. There is a Prop. employee over at KVR forum confirmed that they are aware of issue and that they are working on it. Also at Prop forum you can find about same responses..
#32
19th June 2012
Old 19th June 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CeretoneAudio View Post
Wow.. Thanks for the heads up armando.... That is certainly a deal breaker glad i did not pull the plug yet.

To be honest i beleive that reason should enforce a "zero latency" rule on all rack entensions plugs to say true to the original "reason way", which is easy lightweight and effective.

Honestly why do we need another semi-protools? I hope this is not a sign of the end for reason.
What? To enforce what? How do you make limiter like Reason maximizer with 4 ms look ahead without making that 4 ms delay? If you answer that question you might invent whole new revolution in worldwide plugin industry (tip - read what is look ahead function in limiter to understand why there is a delay) .

To put it simple some plugins aren't possible without introducing delay in a signal path (like limiters or any plugin which use oversanpling).

Actually i am a bit shocked if you are Reason user yet you don't know that their limiter, Neptune and Vocoder introduce delay in signal path. It's well documented in Reason manual.
#33
19th June 2012
Old 19th June 2012
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpod View Post
What? To enforce what? How do you make limiter like Reason maximizer with 4 ms look ahead without making that 4 ms delay? If you answer that question you might invent whole new revolution in worldwide plugin industry (tip - read what is look ahead function in limiter to understand why there is a delay) .

To put it simple some plugins aren't possible without introducing delay in a signal path (like limiters or any plugin which use oversanpling).

Actually i am a bit shocked if you are Reason user yet you don't know that their limiter, Neptune and Vocoder introduce delay in signal path. It's well documented in Reason manual.
I think you're confused. The way ADC works is that you delay the OTHER tracks similarly to the delay you've introduced with the plugin on THIS track.

It's not magic.

- c
#34
19th June 2012
Old 19th June 2012
  #34
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As soon as I started to use Reason (solo) I forgot about all that delay stuff...only monitoring delay in the interface - I assumed it all happened automatically. As Del noted, there does seem to be a prob and I found this using TSAR1 (although it could have been the pre-delay on the 'verb); strangely it disappeared at mix time. Let's hope Props can return us to normal service soon.
#35
19th June 2012
Old 19th June 2012
  #35
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So there's really only like two plug-ins that have a delay issue right? And then there's workarounds for these issues like bouncing out the audio and making the adjustments so that it sits in the track with the correct timing. Granted maybe this is an issue that should be addressed but are you guys really hating on a free update that adds a ton of functionality to Reason? People have been crying for plug-in support in Reason for years and now that it's finally here I'd rather be excited for Reason users than find an issue to complain about. People are never happy it seems. Again, I'm not trying to say it doesn't need to be addressed but for me it's not at all a deal breaker, 20 new devices 2 with delay issues- well worth the free update IMO.
#36
19th June 2012
Old 19th June 2012
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Upright View Post
So there's really only like two plug-ins that have a delay issue right? And then there's workarounds for these issues like bouncing out the audio and making the adjustments so that it sits in the track with the correct timing. Granted maybe this is an issue that should be addressed but are you guys really hating on a free update that adds a ton of functionality to Reason. People have been crying for plug-in support in Reason for years and now that it's finally here I'd rather be excited for Reason users than find an issue to complain about. People are never happy it seems. Again, I'm not trying to say it doesn't need to be addressed but for me it's not at all a deal breaker, 20 new devices 2 with delay issues- well worth the free update IMO.
Only 2 plug-ins affected? Which ones? Where did you hear about this?
Personally I have no issues with Reason, in fact, I'm delighted with the evolution to RE's. My posts say this. Been using Reason for about 10 years now and for the next 10 probably. However, it's not remiss to note that a delay bug exists and should be fixed pronto. I would have appreciated it if a simple announcement had been made rather than finding out whilst in use...that doesn't make anyone 'a hater.'
I don't consider it a free update though - for a start I've already paid for Reason and Props take 30% of RE's, so it's a bit different from the way you're painting it. Just my viewpoint - others may disagree
#37
19th June 2012
Old 19th June 2012
  #37
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I know Polar has a bit of a delay issue and as far as I know there is one other RE that has an issue as well. For me it's not a big deal because it's easily worked around. I would also point out that RE's do have the ability to be updated so that's something to keep in mind as well.
#38
19th June 2012
Old 19th June 2012
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Upright View Post
I know Polar has a bit of a delay issue and as far as I know there is one other RE that has an issue as well. For me it's not a big deal because it's easily worked around. I would also point out that RE's do have the ability to be updated so that's something to keep in mind as well.
So there are 2 RE's - that are known about, and not from Props...but from this forum? maybe there are other issues with RE's? I don't see an easy workaround with the delay issue...how would you achieve this?

Obviously the RE's can be updated in the future but that's not the point; it would have been better for Props to say so IMO.
#39
20th June 2012
Old 20th June 2012
  #39
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Let's be honest about ADC: It's generally not thought to be a real issue in the electronic music world. That's the dirty secret nobody's saying here. Who cares about ADC if you're not dealing with multiple drum tracks and multi-miked guitars, etc.? I could be totally wrong, but that's probably why they didn't put a lot of emphasis on this. Demographics.

- c
#40
20th June 2012
Old 20th June 2012
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
So there are 2 RE's - that are known about, and not from Props...but from this forum? maybe there are other issues with RE's? I don't see an easy workaround with the delay issue...how would you achieve this?

Obviously the RE's can be updated in the future but that's not the point; it would have been better for Props to say so IMO.


My workaround for the slight delay that Polar can have, is to bounce to an audio track and then move the waveform back a few ticks until in lines up to grid with the proper timing and mute the original source, this process takes 30 seconds max.
#41
20th June 2012
Old 20th June 2012
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by topperf View Post
- Yes indeed you are a great company and have a fair pricing policy, that's why I was so surprised by the non update/upgrade path to RE. I wasn't aware that the limitation was caused by Propellerhead.

It really is a pity - I really love your plugins and I would have loved to work with them inside of Reason - but I can't make myself buy them one more time.
Ditto
#42
20th June 2012
Old 20th June 2012
  #42
Talio
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Sonya View Post
Let's be honest about ADC: It's generally not thought to be a real issue in the electronic music world. That's the dirty secret nobody's saying here. Who cares about ADC if you're not dealing with multiple drum tracks and multi-miked guitars, etc.? I could be totally wrong, but that's probably why they didn't put a lot of emphasis on this. Demographics.

- c
It may become a real issue if the user is layering drum elements, which is pretty common in the electronic music world.
#43
20th June 2012
Old 20th June 2012
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Sonya View Post
Let's be honest about ADC: It's generally not thought to be a real issue in the electronic music world. That's the dirty secret nobody's saying here. Who cares about ADC if you're not dealing with multiple drum tracks and multi-miked guitars, etc.? I could be totally wrong, but that's probably why they didn't put a lot of emphasis on this. Demographics.

- c
It's not a "nano seconds" delay, its a considerable latency, in every genere (not only electronic music) its a PITA having your loops out of sync!

BTW, I also produce electronic music


Best regards.

delcosmos.
#44
20th June 2012
Old 20th June 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Sonya View Post
Let's be honest about ADC: It's generally not thought to be a real issue in the electronic music world. That's the dirty secret nobody's saying here. Who cares about ADC if you're not dealing with multiple drum tracks and multi-miked guitars, etc.? I could be totally wrong, but that's probably why they didn't put a lot of emphasis on this. Demographics.

- c
I was reading this several times trying to find out is it a joke like you know to make but it seems not. What dirty secret come one you can't be serious.

Just by loading new FET compressor and making use of it in parallel compression in old way(aux) will cause you phasing. That's why there is parallel inject but then you have to do it on whole subgroup not per individual drums(or if you want on individual drums you need to load each FET for each drum). And yes i do electronic music. That statement was actually funny.

Just one sample of delay will introduce all sort of issues and most of these effects i mentioned introduce several hundreds of sample delays.

There wasn't emphasis on it since they mostly never introduced advanced algorithms to Reason, now when they are there it's on to do as they even confirmed it for several times now. There is a thread at KVR where one of founders of Propellerhead claim it's important and on to do list.

So guys you only need to wait for some (i hope) short time, I also hope this won't be paid upgrade.
#45
20th June 2012
Old 20th June 2012
  #45
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so far its worked really well for me. i dont have the lugs though that have ADC issues

the other thing that would be insanely good for reason now, with its killer SSL type mixer would be full Eucon support

in cubase i love having my artist series working with so many parameters. seems to me the reason mixer is begging for control like that
#46
20th June 2012
Old 20th June 2012
  #46
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Wait. SO there is no ADC for these extensions? No way to add compensation manually for added latency?

Is this correct. Or is it just a bug?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Sonya View Post
Let's be honest about ADC: It's generally not thought to be a real issue in the electronic music world. That's the dirty secret nobody's saying here. Who cares about ADC if you're not dealing with multiple drum tracks and multi-miked guitars, etc.? I could be totally wrong, but that's probably why they didn't put a lot of emphasis on this. Demographics.

- c

You couldn't be more out of touch on the subject regarding what your saying about Electronic Music. It actually amazes me, your comment. Why wouldn't it matter?

I'm blown away...
#47
20th June 2012
Old 20th June 2012
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kreeper_6 View Post
Wait. SO there is no ADC for these extensions? No way to add compensation manually for added latency?

Is this correct. Or is it just a bug?
from some comments given by Propellerhead on KVR forum:

ADC is already implemented in RE but since routing possibilities are infinite due to reason modularity, reason 6.5 doesn't manage it yet and they work on it.

they recommand to use regroove mixer to manage it manually at the moment.
Pastor Obviedo
#48
20th June 2012
Old 20th June 2012
  #48
Pastor Obviedo
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So that idea of using Reason as your main DAW is just a dream.

I can't imagine going back to the days where we have to shift tracks manually. i can't believe a company with that level of tech knowledge (Propellerheads) let unresolved this important thing.

I was seriously considering reason 6.5 as my primary DAW because of RE, but I'll pass till they implement ADC, don't want to go back to my Protools LE days.

P.O.
#49
20th June 2012
Old 20th June 2012
  #49
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I'm a long time Reason user and personally I'm going to cut them some slack on this...they've been an innovative company with solid support so I'm sure they're working hard to resolve this...and as has been pointed out it's not a total disaster. I did a mix from scratch today with 30 or 40 RE's and lots of TSAR1's...the CPU was OK with it and the mix turned out fine.

I appreciate it's not cool with everyone but I'm sure they'll sort it soon
#50
20th June 2012
Old 20th June 2012
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Propellerhead's have said Delay Compensation is implemented in the Rack Extension format. It's just not yet implemented in Reason itself because of the modular nature of Reason - where you can route anything to anything. I think this release was just to get the Rack Extensions out there and they will now be working on implementing PDC.

Here's a quote from the developer:
Quote:
Hi,

yes, Reason would benefit from plugin delay compensation, and this will be more relevant if we get more Rack Extensions with processing latency (see below).

We are investigating this, of course. It is, however, really, really complex due to our free routing. Shifting the playback timing of a track is not at all sufficient for this. Because signal paths can be split and merged. Since a single track may have more than one signal path, with different latencies, we cannot just adjust the playback timing of that track. This would eliminate the delay on one of the paths, but not on the other(s).

There are other, more complex issues to handle as well (related to merging, feedback connections, CV, Reason's multicore support etc).

Some things that can be good to know:

* In other environments, all plugins will have some latency due to how audio is sent to and from the plugin. This is typically very small - but if you chain multiple effects for example, their inherent delays will be added. This means plugin delay compensation is always required in those environments.

Reason works differently. You can chain how many Screams and MClass Compressors you like, without added delay. The same is true for Rack Extensions.

* Then there is another type of delay - let's call it "processing latency". This is a delay used by the effect processing - e.g. the time needed for analyzing a waveform, for lookahead limiting or pitch detection etc.
Up until now, Reason has had 3 effect devices with processing latency: MClass Maximizer (when Lookahead is on), Vocoder (FFT 512 mode) and Neptune.
These types of devices are what makes Plugin Delay Compensation needed.
A Rack Extension effect such as a filter, EQ, dist, chorus or compressor without lookahead will typically not add any latency at all.
#51
20th June 2012
Old 20th June 2012
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercado_Negro View Post
It may become a real issue if the user is layering drum elements, which is pretty common in the electronic music world.
That's true.

For those who think I was dissing electronic music or that I'm wholly ignorant on the topic, I direct you to my band's Soundcloud page.

http://soundcloud.com/beautypill/elegy-for-name-withheld

http://soundcloud.com/beautypill/beauty-pill-afrikaner-2

http://soundcloud.com/beautypill/ann-the-word-original-rough

No dis!

I was just making a lighthearted comment that many Reason users are less concerned with issues of phase than people who record acoustic-based music are. I'm not dissing anyone and I didn't mean it that seriously. Apologies if I offended anyone.

- c
#52
21st June 2012
Old 21st June 2012
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miscend View Post
.

Here's a quote from the developer:

* In other environments, all plugins will have some latency due to how audio is sent to and from the plugin. This is typically very small - but if you chain multiple effects for example, their inherent delays will be added. This means plugin delay compensation is always required in those environments.

Reason works differently. You can chain how many Screams and MClass Compressors you like, without added delay. The same is true for Rack Extensions.
Is that another misleading feature explanation of their supposedly superiority

I can stack 100 plugins in three different daws and i have ZERO latency. Literally. If plugins does not add latency it does not add latency. No matter in which host is used. Are they living bellow rock? Which environment is behaving like this?
#53
21st June 2012
Old 21st June 2012
  #53
ValhallaDSP
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miscend View Post
Propellerhead's have said Delay Compensation is implemented in the Rack Extension format. It's just not yet implemented in Reason itself because of the modular nature of Reason - where you can route anything to anything. I think this release was just to get the Rack Extensions out there and they will now be working on implementing PDC.

Here's a quote from the developer:
Where is this quote from? Is this an official Propellerhead statement?
#54
21st June 2012
Old 21st June 2012
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor Obviedo View Post
So that idea of using Reason as your main DAW is just a dream.

I can't imagine going back to the days where we have to shift tracks manually. i can't believe a company with that level of tech knowledge (Propellerheads) let unresolved this important thing.

I was seriously considering reason 6.5 as my primary DAW because of RE, but I'll pass till they implement ADC, don't want to go back to my Protools LE days.

P.O.
Heaven forbid you should actually have to do a bit of work to get your stuff to sound right, instead of having it all automagically spoon fed to you..

Seriously, so long as you are aware what is and what isn't going on, then it's never a problem to keep on top of it.
Im happy to move tracks around a little to get the timing right if need be. It's no big deal, and it's a small price to pay for the massive gains in stability over nigh on any other DAW out there you care to mention.
The fact you can get more work done, due to little to no time wasted trouble shooting is a huge advantage that doesn't get the attention it deserves in threads such as this.

6.5 is running pretty slick for me, considering my computer is a good 5 years old now.

While im here.. Seancostello Are you considering making an RE or 2??
#55
21st June 2012
Old 21st June 2012
  #55
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Yes, Sean is actually making a thing called Delay Comp.

So he's worried about the confusion.

I'm sure you can understand.

- c
#56
21st June 2012
Old 21st June 2012
  #56
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AFAIK the only issue with Reason (up to 6.5) was that the Scream device changed the phase...which meant that there can be some phase cancellation depending how things are wired. Easy workaround is to use 2 Screams in series and bypass one.
************************************************************
In other news: Korg have released the Poly6 RE @ 39 Euros.

Polysix - Shop - Propellerhead

Yay!
#57
21st June 2012
Old 21st June 2012
  #57
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Nobody liked my terrible "delay comp" pun.

Shocking.

- c
#58
21st June 2012
Old 21st June 2012
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
AFAIK the only issue with Reason (up to 6.5) was that the Scream device changed the phase...which meant that there can be some phase cancellation depending how things are wired. Easy workaround is to use 2 Screams in series and bypass one.
************************************************************
In other news: Korg have released the Poly6 RE @ 39 Euros.

Polysix - Shop - Propellerhead

Yay!
Then you haven't used a loop or a synth through Polar.

Because it is confirmed (even by Propellerhead's mastermind) that the signal coming thorugh is delayed for the lack of ADC.

But they are working on it.

Best regards.
#59
21st June 2012
Old 21st June 2012
  #59
ValhallaDSP
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Llitsor View Post
While im here.. Seancostello Are you considering making an RE or 2??
Not at the moment.
#60
21st June 2012
Old 21st June 2012
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Sonya View Post
Nobody liked my terrible "delay comp" pun.

Shocking.

- c
It's a pun? Wow. /pun

Your music's great though...lovely production!
***********************************************

Thanks Del...up to 6.5 all OK right?

I'm gonna check it out now...perhaps I can have some happy accidents.
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