Kush Audio UBK-1 : VST Windows + 64-Bit Public Beta!
Old 1st May 2012
  #241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gear Geek View Post
Some compressors preserve the stereo image better than others. It is due to the detector design. Some use mid side internally or let you manually adjust. Digital compressors usually are bad at this meaning the emulations loose a little more stereo image than the real units.


Comparing a strereo versus a M/S treatment is of course in favor of the M/S when it comes to stereo handlin during compression , but at ratio 1 it should have no difference !

Put a Fairchild emu and a 1176 , unless you're crompressing or driving , same sound at the end (distortion reacteration apparts)

May i ask your monitoring method ? do you have a goniometer or some to corroborate waht you're saying ? What setting do you put the UBK 1?
Old 1st May 2012
  #242
Gear maniac
 

Jeezo I'm not talking about slight changes in the stereo image which most compressors introduce.
I'm talking about a hard panned signal moving almost completely to the center in the stereo image.
Old 2nd May 2012
  #243
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Gunjah View Post
Jeezo I'm not talking about slight changes in the stereo image which most compressors introduce.
I'm talking about a hard panned signal moving almost completely to the center in the stereo image.
I know this might not be the best test, put I've done the following things to verify this:

1 - Created a hi-hat line, hard panned left
2 - Inserted UBK1 on the hi-hat channel
3 - Inserted PAZ Position (Goniometer) @ 2bus
4 - Turned on all the 3 modules on the UBK1, all working reasonably (meters moving)
5 - Signal didn't went center and stayed hard left


In my experience, most compressors (analog and digital) will shorten the stereo field when operating in "linked" mode. Use dual-mono instead of stereo link and the problem is solved. You can easily hear this on Vertigo SC1, Elysia Alpha and Paul Frindle's DSM, which all have linked/unlinked modes.
Old 2nd May 2012
  #244
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steveschizoid's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Gunjah View Post
Jeezo I'm not talking about slight changes in the stereo image which most compressors introduce.
I'm talking about a hard panned signal moving almost completely to the center in the stereo image.
This sounds like a bug that's peculiar to your system. It definitely does not do what you're describing with Cubase or Wavelab.

I'm still pining away for the 64 bit update though
Old 2nd May 2012
  #245
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Thread Starter
Old 2nd May 2012
  #246
Gear addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeezo View Post


Comparing a strereo versus a M/S treatment is of course in favor of the M/S when it comes to stereo handlin during compression , but at ratio 1 it should have no difference !

Put a Fairchild emu and a 1176 , unless you're crompressing or driving , same sound at the end (distortion reacteration apparts)

May i ask your monitoring method ? do you have a goniometer or some to corroborate waht you're saying ? What setting do you put the UBK 1?
Ha,ha I actually have not even tried the UBK yet. Was just speaking in general that some compressors preserve the stereo image better than others given the same amount of gain reduction. What I was talking about would not be a huge difference like Dr.Gunjah described. Maybe something odd with his setup.
Old 2nd May 2012
  #247
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Thread Starter
yep i think so ....
Old 2nd May 2012
  #248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Gunjah View Post
Especially on the master it seems that it filters out all the "bad" frequencies and moves every instrument to it's correct place in the mix.
[expletive deleted]
Old 2nd May 2012
  #249
Gear nut
 
dariva's Avatar
 

Any plans to ditch the iLok?? ....I do realize that even if there are such plans, the likelihood of sharing them here and now is ...... as low as James Cameron can go But still, had to ask ...
Old 2nd May 2012
  #250
Quote:
Originally Posted by dariva View Post
Any plans to ditch the iLok?? ....I do realize that even if there are such plans, the likelihood of sharing them here and now is ...... as low as James Cameron can go But still, had to ask ...
UBK-1, VCC, Softube, Altiverb, Lexicon, DSM...just to name a few......isn't that enough to convince you to get an ilok?

IMO, the DSM and/or the UBK-1 alone are more than a good reason to get one.
Old 2nd May 2012
  #251
Gear maniac
 

Ok, good to know that this is not a global problem and probably only a bug on my system and/or reaper.
I will try to reproduce this in wavelab.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dullfangs View Post
[expletive deleted]
what's your problem mate? that's just my experience with the ubk1.. if yours is different, my heart bleeds for you.
Old 2nd May 2012
  #252
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Thread Starter
cool keep us informed ...it might be usefull for other reaper ubk1 user ...
Old 2nd May 2012
  #253
Talio
 
Mercado_Negro's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Gunjah View Post
Ok, good to know that this is not a global problem and probably only a bug on my system and/or reaper.
It's working fine here in REAPER 4.22 32bit (and 64bit, via bridge).
Old 2nd May 2012
  #254
Gear interested
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Gunjah View Post
Ok, good to know that this is not a global problem and probably only a bug on my system and/or reaper.
I will try to reproduce this in wavelab.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercado_Negro View Post
It's working fine here in REAPER 4.22 32bit (and 64bit, via bridge).
I don't think it's a bug, it also does that here in Reaper 4.22 and Sonar 8.5.3. But I think it's intended behaviour. It's basically acting like some kind of dual mono compressor.

If you set the LINK control of PSP's Mastercomp to 0% (which unlinks the sidechain signal for left and right), a panned signal (NOT hard panned!) also shifts towards the center the more it compresses - just as UBK-1 does.

Hard panned sources (100% left or right) won't shift, because there's no signal energy in the opposite channel, where it could shift to...
Old 2nd May 2012
  #255
Quote:
Originally Posted by fripholm View Post
I don't think it's a bug, it also does that here in Reaper 4.22 and Sonar 8.5.3. But I think it's intended behaviour. It's basically acting like some kind of dual mono compressor.

If you set the LINK control of PSP's Mastercomp to 0% (which unlinks the sidechain signal for left and right), a panned signal (NOT hard panned!) also shifts towards the center the more it compresses - just as UBK-1 does.

Hard panned sources (100% left or right) won't shift, because there's no signal energy in the opposite channel, where it could shift to...
I can't conduct a test right now since I'm not at the studio, but like I've said before, I mixed a song last weekend with the UBK1 on the drum bus and didn't noticed such behaviour.

Anyway, I'd do a test later tonight to double-check this.
Old 2nd May 2012
  #256
Pragmatic Snob
 
u b k's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Gunjah View Post
just try it for yourself. pan a sound then load ubk1 and increase compression... panning destroyed. then try with any other compressor.

Doc, this is definitely not normal behavior and I can't replicate it over here, but I apologize that you're getting this weirdness and I'd love to get it sorted out asap.

Can I trouble you to report this as a bug to n-a-t-h-a-n-AT-k-u-s-h-a-u-d-i-o-DOT-c-o-m? He'll need your OS, CPU, DAW & version number, and UBK version number, then he can submit it to the coder and we can get to work on quashing it.

Thanks so much!


Gregory Scott - ubk
Old 2nd May 2012
  #257
Gear maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by fripholm View Post
I don't think it's a bug, it also does that here in Reaper 4.22 and Sonar 8.5.3. But I think it's intended behaviour. It's basically acting like some kind of dual mono compressor.

If you set the LINK control of PSP's Mastercomp to 0% (which unlinks the sidechain signal for left and right), a panned signal (NOT hard panned!) also shifts towards the center the more it compresses - just as UBK-1 does.

Hard panned sources (100% left or right) won't shift, because there's no signal energy in the opposite channel, where it could shift to...
confirmed.
Tried it with compassion in unlinked detector mode and autogain ON and the behaviour is almost identical to the ubk1. thanks fripholm.
So i think my issue is not a bug, but based on the detector design..

@gregory: Is the assumption correct, that ubk1 (or at least the compressor) is a dual mono unit? If so, is there any chance to get a linked mode?

Cheers,
Doc
Old 2nd May 2012
  #258
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Thread Starter
Guyz , tried in right now in sonar 8.5.3 and x1 ...no issue , for real ..hard panned to 50% ...nothing !! Beyer DT 990 PRo here where just a 2% pan change can be noticed ....**
Tried it on a mono track pan , a stereo track pan , a sterero track with intreleaved uncheked ..same ...
Old 3rd May 2012
  #259
^^^ What Jeezo said.
Old 3rd May 2012
  #260
Gear interested
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeezo View Post
Guyz , tried in right now in sonar 8.5.3 and x1 ...no issue , for real ..hard panned to 50% ...nothing !! Beyer DT 990 PRo here where just a 2% pan change can be noticed ....**
Tried it on a mono track pan , a stereo track pan , a sterero track with intreleaved uncheked ..same ...
Jeezo, try this: Insert some kind of dynamic pad sound or slow piano loop on a mono (!) track and pan it 70% to the left. Route this track to a buss and insert UBK1 on this buss. For best results make sure UBK1 is heavily compressing the signal and the needle is swinging back and forth.

You should now be able to hear the mono signal wandering around the left side of the stereo field. I can clearly hear it and if you want visual approval, take your favourite stereo vectorscope (Ozone has one or Digicheck if you have RME hardware) and see the signal shifting around.

It's not a problem for me, you just have to keep that in mind...
Old 3rd May 2012
  #261
Gear maniac
 

It was an incorrect statement in my earlier posts, that it also happens with hard panned sources.
Like fripholm wrote in his first post, it doesn't happen with a 100% panned signal; you need some signal on the other side. I guess that's the autogain which increases a very low signal, but it can't increase "nothing"

Cheers,
Doc
Old 3rd May 2012
  #262
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steveschizoid's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by fripholm View Post
Jeezo, try this: Insert some kind of dynamic pad sound or slow piano loop on a mono (!) track and pan it 70% to the left. Route this track to a buss and insert UBK1 on this buss. For best results make sure UBK1 is heavily compressing the signal and the needle is swinging back and forth.

You should now be able to hear the mono signal wandering around the left side of the stereo field. I can clearly hear it and if you want visual approval, take your favourite stereo vectorscope (Ozone has one or Digicheck if you have RME hardware) and see the signal shifting around.

It's not a problem for me, you just have to keep that in mind...
I stand corrected. I just replicated this in Cubase 32 bit. It only seems to happen if you put it on a buss (a "group" channel)

Again, I'm not using UBK-1 much yet since I have a gazillion existing 64 bit projects...

The compressor is perhaps reacting to left and right independently.

If you want to use this on a stereo buss without side with the lower level increasing in volume relative to the other you'll have to create two panned mono busses each with a UBK-1 set to compress the same way, then create your image by manipulating the faders. Of course, if the information is dynamically different to a significant extent (like, for example, if you were trying to compress any sort of drum buss) then you'd still get stereo image changes that you probably wouldn't want.

Offhand, I can't think of a good work around for that - aside from rendering the material on the buss and importing it into the project on a new stereo channel track and instantiating the UBK-1 on that - obviously not an ideal solution :o)
Old 3rd May 2012
  #263
Quote:
Originally Posted by fripholm View Post
Jeezo, try this: Insert some kind of dynamic pad sound or slow piano loop on a mono (!) track and pan it 70% to the left. Route this track to a buss and insert UBK1 on this buss. For best results make sure UBK1 is heavily compressing the signal and the needle is swinging back and forth.

You should now be able to hear the mono signal wandering around the left side of the stereo field. I can clearly hear it and if you want visual approval, take your favourite stereo vectorscope (Ozone has one or Digicheck if you have RME hardware) and see the signal shifting around.

It's not a problem for me, you just have to keep that in mind...
Confirmed on win 7 64 bit Reaper...but! It seems to me to be the natual action of the comp as friphom and dr gunjah suggest.
This behaviour doesn't happen with DC8C for example.
Old 3rd May 2012
  #264
Gear maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by henge View Post
Confirmed on win 7 64 bit Reaper...but! It seems to me to be the natual action of the comp as friphom and dr gunjah suggest.
This behaviour doesn't happen with DC8C for example.
It does when you put dc8c in expert mode and set channel seperation to maximum. Now when you drive the comp hard and then compensate the output manually (because it doesn't have an autogain feature) you get the same stereo shifting.

A linked mode in ubk1 would be cool, though I guess the question then is, what signal you feed into the detector.

Cheers,
Doc
Old 3rd May 2012
  #265
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steveschizoid's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by henge View Post
Confirmed on win 7 64 bit Reaper...but! It seems to me to be the natual action of the comp as friphom and dr gunjah suggest.
This behaviour doesn't happen with DC8C for example.
Then why does it not happen when put on a Cubase channel track as opposed to a group track?

It's a bug.
Old 3rd May 2012
  #266
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Thread Starter
Guyz , i will check asap (planning atravel right now , so not a lot of time) , but as you can see i my videos , i use UBK1 on a drum buss treating a whole drum kit : nothing on the panning .....except the pshycho acoutics effects !! (IMAGING)
Old 3rd May 2012
  #267
Gear interested
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by steveschizoid View Post
Then why does it not happen when put on a Cubase channel track as opposed to a group track?
Maybe because panning usually happens after the FX inserts.
Old 3rd May 2012
  #268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Gunjah View Post
It does when you put dc8c in expert mode and set channel seperation to maximum. Now when you drive the comp hard and then compensate the output manually (because it doesn't have an autogain feature) you get the same stereo shifting.

A linked mode in ubk1 would be cool, though I guess the then question is, what signal you feed into the detector.

Cheers,
Doc
Ahhh thanks Doc. Now all this being said, I've never noticed this behaviour before and it certainly has not affected my mixing or mixes in any appreciable way.
Old 3rd May 2012
  #269
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by fripholm View Post
Jeezo, try this: Insert some kind of dynamic pad sound or slow piano loop on a mono (!) track and pan it 70% to the left. Route this track to a buss and insert UBK1 on this buss. For best results make sure UBK1 is heavily compressing the signal and the needle is swinging back and forth.

You should now be able to hear the mono signal wandering around the left side of the stereo field. I can clearly hear it and if you want visual approval, take your favourite stereo vectorscope (Ozone has one or Digicheck if you have RME hardware) and see the signal shifting around.

It's not a problem for me, you just have to keep that in mind...
Confirmed !!!
from 10 oclock to 3 oclock WET ....

The drive module do do nothing ...the comp module is the most impacting , the density is also affecting but in a smoother way (unless you go real thick (in the red) ...
Old 3rd May 2012
  #270
Talio
 
Mercado_Negro's Avatar
 

I tested it in REAPER 4.22, following the steps you've mentioned here, and I can confirm this now. Yes, it looks/sounds like UBK-1's compression stage operates in "unlinked" mode, i.e, dual mono.

I made a video (.avi) showing this:

UBK-1_Compression_Behavior.avi (2MB)

I think we've just found out part of the reason why the UBK-1 adds movement to the source

I don't use too much compression with it, that's problably the reason why I never noticed it.
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