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#181
2nd May 2012
Old 2nd May 2012
  #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmoon View Post
Well hello there.my comment may be a disappointment. I was in Mexico City for a few days

Can we put the volume control on the XLR Line out? Unlikely.

This is the Golden Output,You have the monitor out for that.

Can you use the Line out for monitors? Of course, but it will be at full level.


Thanks,

Phil Moon
Lynx
Hello
I think some people will support me in that
it seems that line outs is a bit better sounding then monitor out because of dual DACs and if some people will want to use it for monitors speakers the ability to control the level of it will be very very useful, because if the DAW will crush or something like that the ablity to turn it off quickly. i know that it is not possible to add analog volume control with a firmware update but but what about a digital control, is that possible to add?

thank u

#182
2nd May 2012
Old 2nd May 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chilly7 View Post
Hello
I think some people will support me in that
it seems that line outs is a bit better sounding then monitor out because of dual DACs and if some people will want to use it for monitors speakers the ability to control the level of it will be very very useful, because if the DAW will crush or something like that the ablity to turn it off quickly. i know that it is not possible to add analog volume control with a firmware update but but what about a digital control, is that possible to add?

thank u

There's no point in them adding a line out digital volume control anywhere else in the firmware as attenuating the digital signal would degrade the signal far more than any improvement you would get by using the dual DACs.

If you're hell bent on using the line outs to monitor, either listen at full volume all the time, or put something in your signal chain that you can use to change the volume in the analogue domain.

I think the question we should be asking is that if the Dual DAC's garner a significant improvement in audio quality. Why weren't they used on the monitor out???
#183
2nd May 2012
Old 2nd May 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jezzta667 View Post
There's no point in them adding a line out digital volume control anywhere else in the firmware as attenuating the digital signal would degrade the signal far more than any improvement you would get by using the dual DACs.
Could you give the proof for this statement ? In my book, as far as the noise remains above the lest significant bit, attenuating digitally the signal does not degrade it at all.
#184
2nd May 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by didier.brest View Post
Could you give the proof for this statement ? In my book, as far as the noise remains above the lest significant bit, attenuating digitally the signal does not degrade it at all.
As far as I am aware, a 6dB attenuation will drop one bit of resolution. If you attenuate a 16 bit signal by 24dB, you essentially have a 12 bit signal. If you have a unit that re-encodes a signal as a higher bit depth, you can attenuate the signal without losing resolution but I think that this is only present in systems which are designed to be used as digital attenuators (which the Hilo is not).

But I don't know enough to be conclusive. I'm sure someone who knows more than me can explain this more clearly ( or correct me where necessary).
#185
2nd May 2012
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You are right but for 24 bit PCM coding the limitation from the digital resolution as fixed by the number of bits is much below the actual limitation from the converter accuracy. Lynx claims 121 dB A-weighted dynamics for the Hilo while the maximum dynamics for 24 bits is 149 dB unweighted, the ratio of the maximum digital value (0 dBFS) to the RMS level of the quantization noise uniformly distributed between -1/2 bit and + 1/2 bit. Hence one may attenuate digitally a recording by about 20 dB without any significant impact on the effective dynamics.
#186
2nd May 2012
Old 2nd May 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jezzta667 View Post
There's no point in them adding a line out digital volume control anywhere else in the firmware as attenuating the digital signal would degrade the signal far more than any improvement you would get by using the dual DACs.

If you're hell bent on using the line outs to monitor, either listen at full volume all the time, or put something in your signal chain that you can use to change the volume in the analogue domain.

I think the question we should be asking is that if the Dual DAC's garner a significant improvement in audio quality. Why weren't they used on the monitor out???
Hello

1) Yes i know it will the digital volume will reduce the resolution of the sound, but i would need it there not for monitoring but for ablity to turn volume quickly if i need.(my DAW crashed, or i just want very quickly listen to very loud sound or something i messed up in on my computer so i need quickly attenete a very lound sound and etc....
2) if i will put something in the chain between Hilo and Line outs and active monitors it will most likely degradete the signal and most likely will add noise so no i don't want to put additional stuff in the chain...
3) i don't know, if it would be me i would put awrywere as best as possible stuff even if it will bump the price a bit but probably Lynx though that it will be too costly to put dual dacks on Monitor outs too, right?
#187
2nd May 2012
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Perhaps you could add an XLR monitor output with top-notch conversion to the "wish list" thread on Gearslutz.
I'm sure every mastering engineer would appreciate that.

Even though, as you so rightly stated, placing a monitor controller or similar would probably degrade the signal slightly, that's one of the things an audiophile sometimes needs to compromise with.
Perhaps a passive volume attenuator may provide more transparency?
pmoon
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#188
2nd May 2012
Old 2nd May 2012
  #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jezzta667 View Post
There's no point in them adding a line out digital volume control anywhere else in the firmware as attenuating the digital signal would degrade the signal far more than any improvement you would get by using the dual DACs.

If you're hell bent on using the line outs to monitor, either listen at full volume all the time, or put something in your signal chain that you can use to change the volume in the analogue domain.

I think the question we should be asking is that if the Dual DAC's garner a significant improvement in audio quality. Why weren't they used on the monitor out???
Good replies to that question. Here's the thinking. The Line Outs were intended to be the analog output for the most critical usage. That's why we designed it the way it is.

If you go to our website and compare the specs between the Line out and Monitor out, you'll see that the specs on the Monitor out are still pretty darn good, -107 dB THD+N; 121 dB dynamic range; -130 dB crosstalk; and +/- 0.02 dB freq response 20 Hz - 20 kHz. This is pretty darn good. And these are REAL measured specs, not estimates or preliminary.

Now I don't want to get into a specs war here, but in practical applications, for a monitor output with a volume control, this is hard to beat. And the Line out is even better, but that performance, as you note, would be compromised by a volume control.

You are also correct in that we do not have a digital volume control in the Line Outputs. We do however offer digital output level controls on the Monitor and Headphone outputs.

The bottom line is that all three analog outputs, Line, Monitor and Headphones sound really, really good. I do not have golden ears, but I cannot hear any difference between the Line out and Monitor out signal, and I have tried this directly into both Tannoy and Genelec monitors.
#189
2nd May 2012
Old 2nd May 2012
  #189
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it was likely a cost and space-saving thing. the thing is: monitoring is just as critical a job as moving audio around cleanly. but at least lynx hears that some of us prefer xlr balanced for sound quality and stability of connection reasons. for those of us interested in a vol control for the line outs, do the extra couple hours of babysitting (that's a joke, har har), and pick up a versatile and quality dedicated pot (like a goldpoint sa1x). it comes recommended by a friend whose ears i like. since it's a dedicated unit (not built into hilo), just swap cables and you can use it for other things. it's a passive, stepped design--quiet and accurate.
#190
2nd May 2012
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I forgot to mention that most professional users would NEED a monitor controller anyway if they wish to switch between two or three sets of speakers.
Therefore, using the line-out for monitoring is very feasable in that context.
#191
3rd May 2012
Old 3rd May 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmoon View Post
Good replies to that question. Here's the thinking. The Line Outs were intended to be the analog output for the most critical usage. That's why we designed it the way it is.

If you go to our website and compare the specs between the Line out and Monitor out, you'll see that the specs on the Monitor out are still pretty darn good, -107 dB THD+N; 121 dB dynamic range; -130 dB crosstalk; and +/- 0.02 dB freq response 20 Hz - 20 kHz. This is pretty darn good. And these are REAL measured specs, not estimates or preliminary.

Now I don't want to get into a specs war here, but in practical applications, for a monitor output with a volume control, this is hard to beat. And the Line out is even better, but that performance, as you note, would be compromised by a volume control.

You are also correct in that we do not have a digital volume control in the Line Outputs. We do however offer digital output level controls on the Monitor and Headphone outputs.

The bottom line is that all three analog outputs, Line, Monitor and Headphones sound really, really good. I do not have golden ears, but I cannot hear any difference between the Line out and Monitor out signal, and I have tried this directly into both Tannoy and Genelec monitors.
Seems a bit odd that the BiLynear converters were used on some channels and not others. It's like saying "we came up with this new method and it makes things better but not noticeably better". Obviously, we are all "audiophiles" to a degree. Buying a new converter like the Hilo, we like to think it sounds the best it can.

Am I correct in saying that their advantages are only apparent when being used in a loopback mode? e.g if you loop a signal through some outboard gear once, twice or three times, that's when the better signal-to-noise comes into effect?

Phil, don't get me wrong. The Hilo rocks! I am just curious about the thinking behind this as in all the promo vids I watched pre-release, I was left with the impression that the dual DAC's was on all the channels and that it made quite a substantial improvement to the SOUND.
#192
3rd May 2012
Old 3rd May 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by didier.brest View Post
You are right but for 24 bit PCM coding the limitation from the digital resolution as fixed by the number of bits is much below the actual limitation from the converter accuracy. Lynx claims 121 dB A-weighted dynamics for the Hilo while the maximum dynamics for 24 bits is 149 dB unweighted, the ratio of the maximum digital value (0 dBFS) to the RMS level of the quantization noise uniformly distributed between -1/2 bit and + 1/2 bit. Hence one may attenuate digitally a recording by about 20 dB without any significant impact on the effective dynamics.
Thanks for that. Depending on your speakers, however, 20dB may not be enough to listen at a comfortable level. I tried this this morning by cranking up my analogue volume to full and seeing at what point the digital output had to be set to attain a comfortable level through my Event Opals and it was about -26dB.

...and let's not forget that 16 bit audio is still very much alive and well with its dynamic range of approx 96dB.
#193
3rd May 2012
Old 3rd May 2012
  #193
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the thing about making a deep, versatile product is people are gonna pay attention to the details and wanna use the box the way they wanna. manufacturers are entitled of course to design and market their products as they will, but i think jezz's comment is revealing of how folks pay attention; you might say jezz's comment is as revealing as the double dacs on the line ins/outs (but not other channels). that said, i tip my hat to lynx for being fast and attentive/receptive about the firmware updates. and, the fact is, the only other product close to hilo is the uber pricey (although maybe more advanced) antelope eclipse 384. wouldn't know about it though. haven't listened.
#194
3rd May 2012
Old 3rd May 2012
  #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soundslikearecor View Post
the thing about making a deep, versatile product is people are gonna pay attention to the details and wanna use the box the way they wanna. manufacturers are entitled of course to design and market their products as they will, but i think jezz's comment is revealing of how folks pay attention; you might say jezz's comment is as revealing as the double dacs on the line ins/outs (but not other channels). that said, i tip my hat to lynx for being fast and attentive/receptive about the firmware updates. and, the fact is, the only other product close to hilo is the uber pricey (although maybe more advanced) antelope eclipse 384. wouldn't know about it though. haven't listened.
I do agree with u guys, Lynx Hilo is great!!!

Befor Hilo came out.
I always wanted Metric Halo ULN 8 but there was to many chanells on it and i was not able to afford that 6999 canadian dollars it was, but in the same time i just need a fwe chanells.

But now Hilo came and it solved my problem. I belive it has the same quality as Metric Halo Uln 8 but just with a fwe chanells.

my problem is solved!
#195
3rd May 2012
Old 3rd May 2012
  #195
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Just used a Hilo today to do last minute reworking of mixes (from stems) at mastering.... Best sounding headphone amp I have ever heard.
__________________
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#196
3rd May 2012
Old 3rd May 2012
  #196
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Can Chilly or anyone else share their thoughts about using Sennheiser HD 800s through the Hilo? I'm thinking about getting a pair.
#197
3rd May 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Baron View Post
Hilo owners, if you have recorded something through it, would you share some samples; in that case, please, tell us the gear you used.

Up to now, we have being talking about Hilo, now we need listen to it, better said, through it.

Thanks
No one?
#198
3rd May 2012
Old 3rd May 2012
  #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jezzta667 View Post
Can Chilly or anyone else share their thoughts about using Sennheiser HD 800s through the Hilo? I'm thinking about getting a pair.
Uha-ha-ha!!!

U want to have The Best Headphones in the World?!!

I am extremely happy with Senheizers HD800 and they sound very very good.
but here's a thing about them, there are a fwe other brands who makes headpones in the similar price range as HD 800 but all of them colour the sound too much!!!, while HD 800 sound much more natural, so if u doing some recordings it is very good to have a natural sounding headponess and at my opinion even when u just listeing music i want to hear the sound as it was recorded but not to any coloring. But they are very picky to the sound source because if u listen to mp3 they sound very bad, if u listen to a good recording they sound good.

1)Also Belive me or not but i can do a full recording , mixing and mastering in HD 800 alone and then on good full range studio monitors there won't be any suprises for me like with the rest of headpones.

2) i don't know if it it just me but when i hear the word " headpones" the first thing which comes to my mind is Senheizers Hd 800 but the rest of headpnones are just pure crupp. exept i think Stax headpones, but they use complitely differnt technologi to make headpones and u need a sepcial amp for them( 5000) + headpones alone will be 5000 in total 10000 dollars
Stax SR-009 and Woo Audio WES - Head-Fi TV, Episode 008: - YouTube
3) My ears and my head skin is very sensetive and with the rest of headpones even if a small thin touches something i had a big pain in my head, while with Senheizers HD800 i can wear them all day and there won't be any pain at all.
#199
4th May 2012
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Thanks!
#200
4th May 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jezzta667 View Post
Thanks!
u welcome
#201
6th May 2012
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nms, the creator of the ultimate converter shoot out thread asked me to run the AD/DA test on the Hilo and he's just informed me that it has claimed the number one position by a "good margin above the rest"!

Well done Lynx!!!

Results will be published tomorrow.
#202
6th May 2012
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That´s good news, anyway, I would appreciate samples, as they help potential customers to decide.

I know it´s not like samples from interfaces, because they give you more information than just converters, but still they would help (including the name of preamps and mics used)

The purpose of these samples is listening to it´s depth, stereo image, transparency,.....

Please, don´t overlook this.
#203
6th May 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Baron View Post
That´s good news, anyway, I would appreciate samples, as they help potential customers to decide.

I know it´s not like samples from interfaces, because they give you more information than just converters, but still they would help (including the name of preamps and mics used)

The purpose of these samples is listening to it´s depth, stereo image, transparency,.....

Please, don´t overlook this.
Agreed. Samples to listen to the sound quality, etc would be great.
#204
7th May 2012
Old 7th May 2012
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Woo!

The Hilo's specs as measured by the ultimate loopback shootout test:

LYNX HILO Best all around score
sample rate error: 0.1145 ppm. Corr Depth: 27.1 dB (L), 27.4 dB (R) // RMS: L=-38.7 R=-38.8 // Single pass noise floor: -117.6, -117.6 (RMS)


See the full results here:
The Ultimate Converter DA/AD Loopback Shootout Thread!
#205
7th May 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Baron View Post
That´s good news, anyway, I would appreciate samples, as they help potential customers to decide.

I know it´s not like samples from interfaces, because they give you more information than just converters, but still they would help (including the name of preamps and mics used)

The purpose of these samples is listening to it´s depth, stereo image, transparency,.....

Please, don´t overlook this.
I'll see if I can do a recording maybe tomorrow. Let me know if there is anything in particular you want me to try to include but I'm slightly limited by what I have. For instance, would something like a steel string, a nylon string, a DI'd bass and maybe some stereo percussion do the job for you?
#206
7th May 2012
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Can you sing? ;-)
#207
7th May 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev. Eslam View Post
Can you sing? ;-)
A reverend is asking me if I can sing and winking at me... I feel just like a choirboy. i.e. terrified!

Haha. Does autotune affect a converters performance?

I'll see what I can do. Maybe there's a nice singer songwriter who wouldn't mind coming to record a track. Otherwise I'll man up and come up with something. Hehe.
#208
7th May 2012
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Thanks Jezzta for your answer.

I am mostly interested in the following samples:

- DI'd bass
- DI'd electric guitar, although most people would prefer micing it.
- Vocal
- Stereo percussion will do
- Do you have an analog stereo compressor to mix, for example the stereo percussion sample, in a DA/AD loop?, that way we could compare both.
#209
7th May 2012
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The differences between A-D/D-A converters are so tiny nowadays; you cannot hope to conclude anything from tracks recorded by means of the Hilo without any reference.
#210
7th May 2012
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Yes, but that tiny differences will be important when stacking lots of tracks.

Anyway, as most of us don´t have more than one or two differente converters, have little reference at home (I have a home studio), so, you have to decide based on factors such as small differences, price, flexibility and stability.
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