Liquid Notes - music intelligence

[bliquid25]

You can download the trial version directly at <www.liquid-notes.com/download.html>. Please fill in the form so we can send you the download link for the version that fits with your operating system! You'll also be notified with a link for the demo music files for different sequencers.

Concerning teaching of harmony and chord function: we are working on setting up an EDU-programme for college students, teachers, administrators and staff. In this programme Liquid Notes will be offered under special education pricing.

[Ksp]

thank you for bringing up Liquid Notes here on GS. This is a good reason for us to join the forum and share some of our development infos with you:[/I]

this is a great idea liquid notes as is any new device that makes non trained composers learn and produce more varied musical harmony and melody.

The price point maybe a bit off kilter with the larger market but the ideas a superb one .

I would like to see you push the software further into

chord and harmony randomisation ( does it do this ?) that can goes from totally illogical to one that follow certain modes or harmony rules and can be used as a jumping block into building harmonies.

A harmony randomiser that allows the user to choose a flavour and the software creates an 8 bar harmony of chords.

I would like to input a chord or 2 and then have the software build a progression of 8 bars of this for me following rules of harmony from those chords and introducing options for inversions of the chords via the silders etc and variations.

Maybe auto creation of harmonies from simple melodic motifs we play in ?

A built in Chord library with potential to call these up and try out harmonies on the fly before importing them.

I get that this takes midi files already composed and alters them but would love to see the actual software perform intelligent creation of harmony and chords for players who dont know complex chords.

I just watched the setup video , what happens if i select a melodic line as the harmony ? i get the feeling for more abstract composition there might be some creative potential by not setting it up correctly when choosing what parts are harmony etc ?

I have not looked into your softwares full potential but its on download , as a non trained idiot who plays some keyboard and relies heavily on harmony and melody and counterpoint i love where your going.

[bliquid25]

@Ksp

Thanks to you! We appreciate your kind feedback.

Answering your questions one at the time:

Chord and harmony randomization: As for now, just playing around with the controllers a bit will simulate randomization. The built-in intelligence sure will try to counteract. But as mentioned in a prior post, the higher up you shift a controller the stranger sounding the respective chord will get and the less control Liquid Notes exercises on the composition (even though it will try to match the degree of weirdness on that level). That is true for harmonic progression, as well. High controller positions in a row will lead to very unusual progressions. Turning off "Limit Available Harmonies" will offer an even larger set of pathways through a composition. You can easily break free from any confines here.

Intelligent creation of harmony and chords: Once more, thanks for the input! Some of the ideas you mention are already in the waiting line for future releases.
However, even today Liquid Notes is a very powerful and unique tool: with simple 3-tone C Major chords as starting points Liquid Notes will virtually let you go anywhere in terms of complexity, simply by sliding a few controllers up or down.
In the next update (soon to be released) we will provide users with basic templates of, say, 8 bars of C Major chords, simple cadences, arpeggios etc. From that you can build the neatest chord progressions. All you have to do is slide the controllers, listen and choose/freeze.

Select a melodic line as the harmony: This is true. So far we were trying to use the setup function to restrain musical errors. But by doing it "the wrong way" we did experience some of those "favored flaws".

Thanks!

[Bullseye]

This is like suggesting that the World Series could be won with a pitching machine.

[Ksp]

Originally Posted by Bullseye

This is like suggesting that the World Series could be won with a pitching machine.

a little but this software will help non trained composers evolve their harmony and allow them more variation and help them achieve a deeper musicality to their work ? yes it will and in the end the user still has to make the emotive choices as to what to use.

I am reminded of when drum machines came out and people missed the point really or its true potential

[marcpl]

i agree that this sounds interesting but it seems to be WAY over priced for a toolbox app...and the server requirement is also a turn off.

[Branmong]

RE the server thing: why is there the need for this, is it a disk space or processing power issue?

Agree that the pricing is poor, 100 dollars would be more reasonable

[bliquid25]

It is merely a processing power issue, as the harmony analysis algorithms are fairly complex. Disk space would not be so much of an issue. The servers will be secured with a special legal construction that ensure they remain operational for a predefined time in case our company goes in default.

As mentioned earlier the selling price includes free upgrades of the software for about a year, or until the next major release is due. A minor release is already due in February - this will provide template files selectable directly from within the program which will contain basic chord patterns, cadences, arpeggios etc., later to be followed by templates of various musical genres and styles. With them you can easily start a composition from scratch directly in Liquid Notes. Stringing together those new progressions can easily be managed in the sequencer.

Demo: at Liquid Notes - Home, hit the download button on the home page to get the demo version. Thx.

[bliquid25]

@marcpl @Branmong

We understand we haven't fully shown yet everything Liquid Notes can do, so expect some more tutorials soon that highlight what it is capable of and show which workflows to use to achieve the best results.

Meanwhile, here's a rough cut that was done by one of our beta testers about a number of chord progression manipulations: Liquid Notes Chord Progression Manipulation - YouTube. This is a simple example of how to alter chord functions and tensions in a multi-voice arrangement in a loop.
Shifting controllers up and down will substitute chords. Turning controllers adds tension. The T-D-S radio buttons will change entire functions (and make new sets of substitutions available). Controllers down (after an altered chord) will get you the most natural chord progressions. Every position higher up will deviate from standard expectations.
Listen how every single instrument keeps getting rearranged into the new harmony instantly when a change is applied. There is no voice in the video explaining what he does, nevertheless you all should feel right at home; note that the audio is not running perfectly in sync with the video, seems to be a second or so late.

[Ksp]

[QUOTE=bliquid25;7502344]It is merely a processing power issue, as the harmony analysis algorithms are fairly complex. Disk space would not be so much of an issue. The servers will be secured with a special legal construction that ensure they remain operational for a predefined time in case our company goes in default.

Many thanks for all the info so far , i can see theres loads of potential for expanding it into an amazing system.

can i ask what the server is all about ? how does this work ? are you saying a daw needs to be online to run your software ? i have not tied it yet or got that far .

[bliquid25]

@Ksp

The servers are the host for the harmony analysis, a complex 'web' of mathematical algorithms that form part of what we call 'music intelligence'. They are required solely to perform the harmony analysis of a midi-file.

The other part of the 'music intelligence' of Liquid Notes is built into the client that you download from our website, and that is installed on your machine (desktop, laptop); i.e. some part of the intelligence is always with you. This intelligence on your local machine allows you, for example, to alter chord functions and tensions in a multi-voice arrangement in a loop (as described in my earlier post). Any change you do in your arrangement happens locally and does not require an Internet connection.

ONLY if you open a midi-file in Liquid Notes that has not been analyzed yet it will try to send these to our servers for performing the harmony analysis. That requires an Internet connection.

Midi-files that have been analyzed by our harmony analysis already, can be saved as a project and swapped freely between different installations of Liquid Notes or other users. Same as you do when sharing a text document with someone else by email.

[ReCoTopDog]

Hi everyone, I'm the founder of Re-Compose and head of R&D. Thanks a lot for all your posts. Allow me a few words here:

Liquid Notes (LN) should be seen as your best friend in compositional decision making. It is not to be mistaken as a magic wand, for more clarification on that please read further. It will help you with your creative workflow in completely new ways, apart from the rather technical workflow of getting the production together you're already used to.

Think of the usual creative workflow. It's not a straightforward process. You only start with a few chunks of musical data first, which can easily be handled in LN only. Then, after transferring the files to your DAW, you start using virtual instruments and step by step keep expanding your piece by adding different new elements. Maybe you'll only need it to help you with a harmonic progression completely out of rhythm in the beginning, which you'll then reimport into the DAW and do all the musical fine tuning there. Switch back to your regular composition workflow and at some time get fresh ideas using LN again, expanding its functions over the now broader arrangement.

LN is all about expanding creativity and associated processes without limiting them, technically and cognitively. LN might be very different from the App's you're used to working with. It's not simplicistic and not broken down to a few basic elements for everyone to easily do some neat tricks which will wear out after a while. It allows you to access a vast reservoir of knowledge in music theory. Creativity is born from chaos. Gradually chaos turns into order. LN will support exactly that, helping you condense and concentrate your composition from the "white sheet of paper" all the way through to the final result. The more intricate a piece is getting the more sophisticated changes of the entire arrangement Liquid Notes will allow: only a few abstract (yet sophisticated) ideas in the beginning, a lot of intelligence towards the final production. You incorporate the program into your regular workflow as often as necessary. Use it only on certain limited segments of a piece or apply it to everything. Ideally it will "dynamize" your composition and production workflow. We simply improve what you are already doing. LN to harmony/composing is intended to be what mastering tools are to stereo audio files.

It's possible to import a completed piece into LN and then reharmonize the entire arrangement, without restrictions in length. Or you can use it at any stage of a production workflow, bring harmonic variation to monotonous segments, draft interesting chord patterns from only the most basic starting material (like a simple series of C Major chords), create melodies perfectly fitting the respective harmonic context, improvise polyphonic lines in real time etc.

The principle of a standalone app and import/export routing to/from the sequencer may seem long-winded at first, but this setup will give you the flexibility to easily switch between different types of sequencers. LN behaves like a multi-channel MIDI instrument and allows you to access virtual instruments linked to sequencer tracks. Once the piece has been routed correctly (by the help of a wizard doing most of the work for you), all the rest is a piece of cake.

Thanks!

[Branmong]

Originally Posted by bliquid25

It is merely a processing power issue, as the harmony analysis algorithms are fairly complex.

Thanks for the reply - I'm suspecting that this isn't the full story here and that the server-side processing is really an anti-piracy issue (which is fair enough). A quad-core computer is capable of extremely demanding mathematical calculations. Don't really see how performing spectral analysis can bring a modern computer to its knees, but am happy to be proven wrong - what spec computer would you actually need to do such calculations?

RE the pricing, You can get great software EQs + great compressors for $50-100. And these will be used by audio people every day. But this is a product which won't be used every day, yet is twice as expensive. Fair enough if this took years to develop, but that isn't the point - people don't care, they only care about what it does. Best of luck with it though, looks like a really interesting product and hopefully I'm wrong about the pricing and you sell bucket loads.

EDIT: just re-read it and realised its performing analysis on midi files, not audio files (doh!) As a software developer I just can't see how this would require much processing power at all on a modern computer.

[bliquid25]

@Branmong

Some (or even most) modern computers will be able to handle our harmony analysis. The problem is we have to deal with a number of customers on many different machines around the world, each of them with varying performance characteristics. In such an environment it is essential to control the core part of Liquid Notes in a controlled environment, as otherwise we run the risk of getting flooded with customer complaints for malfunction. Apple does the very same.

Liquid Notes in essence is a change in the workflow of how music is being produced today. We understand it as much more than a product that you use occassionally - it is rather the perception, or the status quo of how music is being produced today, that makes it difficult to grasp that change in the workflow, and the implications it has. One could use it very often in the production process, and might even speed it up and get better results. However, only time will tell if the market accepts such a change, and if the value perceived by people like you is sufficient to qualify for the price we ask for.

It is not our intention to make a bulk of money, rather we want to create a company that endures, produces great products and does much more research into the areas we covered with Liquid Notes. We believe there is much more use for these algorithms, like dynamically adapting music to a player's performance in computer games.

[Branmong]

Originally Posted by bliquid25

@Branmong

Some (or even most) modern computers will be able to handle our harmony analysis. The problem is we have to deal with a number of customers on many different machines around the world, each of them with varying performance characteristics. In such an environment it is essential to control the core part of Liquid Notes in a controlled environment, as otherwise we run the risk of getting flooded with customer complaints for malfunction. Apple does the very same.

I asked you why it was necessary to do the computation on a remote server, you said it was because your software was so computationally intensive.

Now you're saying that it isn't computationally intensive, and that your software could in fact be run on most computers.

Apple doesn't "do the very same" - sure it has cloud-based services, but the majority of these are involved with buying things - music, apps and so on. They didn't need to put Logic / Final Cut Pro in the cloud because of the "varying performance characteristics" of different computers, and I'd imagine that both of these programs are both far more computationally intensive and more complex than your program is.

To be honest, I feel a bit bad here, because I know it must be tough starting a new company, but at least give people a straight answer when they ask a reasonable question.

[DSK]

He said it will run on most machines.

He did not say it will run on most machines with a ton of libraries and vsti + vst fx running at the same time.

I kinda like this cloud idea.

[Branmong]

Originally Posted by DSK

He said it will run on most machines.

He did not say it will run on most machines with a ton of libraries and vsti + vst fx running at the same time.

I kinda like this cloud idea.

I hadn't meant to come across as aggressive or anything, nor do I have some sort of hidden agenda, like some people on this forum, I was just interested in the reason why they chose to go for this cloud-based model as opposed to the normal method of using the processing power of the user's computer. The point was that he said one thing and then contradicted himself.

The cloud idea isn't necessarily bad per se but it would mean that I couldn't personally use it as I purposely don't have internet in my studio as I find it too distracting. Also, you'd imagine it might be infuriating if you're in the middle of composing and your internet connection goes dead, or there's a problem on their server.

I'd say the reasons for this approach are:
a) anti-piracy
b) substantial reduction in development time as they only have to develop for one system.

These two points have nothing to do with processing power.

The arrangement that the software is hosted on a web server for a few years even if the company goes bust is reasonable I suppose, but this kind of model is surely one where the lifetime of software becomes even more precarious than it already has been. I personally don't think that its ideal to use this model for audio apps but its just my opinion and I wish them the best of luck.

[The MPCist]

Cloud or not cloud, I don't mind at all.

This is a pretty interesting tool that can be handy for composing/arranging and probably just about the most interesting thing for me that I've seen on this forum for quite a while.

[bliquid25]

@Branmong

Apologies if my statements were contradicting at times - I see I have been imprecise in pointing out why we do the things we do, and caused some confusion. Sorry for that.

So let me give this another shot to answer your questions better:

Our goal with putting the harmony analysis in the cloud is delivering a solution to the customer that simply works and offers the least risk of causing troubles with the local installation on your machine. It's a risk reduction, and that's what I meant by "Apple does the very same"; they always had a policy of making hardware and software in one encapsulated piece, ensuring things really work.

Running the harmony analysis in the cloud has the major advantage of what I called a "controlled environment" - i.e. hardware+software that we control. By this we make sure that our fairly complex algorithms perform fast and without error, can be scaled easily to customer needs, and in case of error a fix can be applied in no time without asking you to update the software on your machine.

Processing power is not an issue for us in the cloud as we set up the system in the optimal way for the best performance. We cannot do this equally well with a user's machine, and part of the reason is in the hardware / software configuration of those machines that causes differences in performance: there is a myriad of possibilities ranging from different operating systems that are supported with Liquid Notes (Win, Mac, Linux) that run on a near infinite number of hardware variants (processor, hard disks, etc.) for laptops and desktops of different manufacturers. This can result in considerable differences in performance, in particular if one takes into account that we are selling to a global audience where not everyone is running the latest hardware on the computer market.
Putting things in the cloud thus is a way of us protecting from issues related to a user's computer, be it related to processing power or some configuration issues or else. So, you are right when saying it is not related to processing power only.

We're not sure if protection from piracy is a benefit when operating in the cloud - it adds kind of a double layer of security, but (at least from our experience) we cannot tell yet if this turns out as an advantage. Also, licensing management is still dealt with on your local machine; break this and we're as vulnerable as anyone else.

The major drawback of operating the harmony analysis in the cloud is that it requires an Internet connection to perform the analysis. We have had long discussions weighing the pros and cons, and eventually we decided to go for the cloud in part for the reasons outlined above.
Beyond that, the main reasoning is that for a company that only started recently to get their products into the market this seemed the lowest risk approach to us.

We understand that this will turn some potential customers off - the only work-around we have at present is to install Liquid Notes on a second machine that is connected to the Internet, and use this one to perform the harmony analysis. Once a file is analyzed it can be swapped freely.

It is interesting to see that Apple went along the same line of thoughts when putting the voice / semantics analysis servers of Siri for the iPhone 4S into the cloud. Also Shazam has been doing that for a long time. Maybe this is some sort of trend we jumped onto. However, let me say that I clearly understand your reasoning why not to have Internet in the studio. We listen very carefully to what all of you are saying here, be sure about it.

[SKyflash34]

Been reading this product announcement and I have to say I'm seriously impressed.
Over the years I've learned moderate theory across both guitar and piano/keyboard
but always had a hard time taking an idea somewhere because of not knowing
where to go and what chords to use. Even some of my basic progressions
seemed to be lacking in the parts I managed to come up with.

This was up until last summer when I devised a system of creating midi files
of 1 bar chords in major and minor keys and even a few modes. This changed
my workflow greatly as I could import an entire set of basic usable chords
for whatever key I happened to be writing in. If I came up with a riff, or chord
sequence messing around on a guitar, I could drag and drop those midi chords in
and it would give me a better picture. From there I could rearrange the sequence,
create inversions,add upper extensions,substitutions etc. This allowed me to develop
some ear training.

Sometimes working in either Logic or Pro tools I would run into bugs or issues and it
became a pain moving notes around and it could still take me hours to explore the right sequences.
This software is a dream for me as it could allow me to explore the possibilities and do a song justice.
Having the ability to export as a midi file back into your DAW makes the
process so much quicker to move along and get to recording the track.

Yeah one could argue that learning theory and mastering your instrument
can eliminate those barriers from the start,but for me, I have enough
ability that I can learn and come up with parts once i have a structure
to work from. It would force me out of playing the same chords and learning
new chords to use and develop my ear much further.

I have grabbed the demo and i look forward to trying it out. Tax time is
right around the corner for me and I'm looking at purchasing this amazing
piece of software.

[Branmong]

Originally Posted by bliquid25

@Branmong

Apologies if my statements were contradicting at times - I see I have been imprecise in pointing out why we do the things we do, and caused some confusion. Sorry for that.

No problem! And thanks for the reply. I understand that you answered my question quickly and that you weren't intending to be misleading. I was just interested as to why you'd gone this route, and your explanation makes perfect sense.

I worked on two cloud-based apps myself (non audio-related) which is why I was interested - sure, you do get access to more processing power and a more controlled environment, but you also have to deal with scalability issues which can be very tricky, although from your above posts you've obviously worked these out. Best of luck with it.

[swedrian]

Hi there- I downloaded the trial version a couple of days ago and took some time to play around with it. (Cool stuff, btw) I was looking for some report on how to actually use the program so I clicked on a promising post on the Liquid Notes FB Site that lead me to this forum- but unfortunately I still couldn't find any "experience-report".

So I figured I could just start myself by sharing what I have experienced so far:
(LN= Liquid Notes)

First of I must say that the Liquid Notes User Interface is well arranged. Every chord has its own area where a slider-kinda-thing is located, apparently changing the chord within its scale. Three little buttons are located at the top, changing the chord's functionality: tonic, subdominant and dominant. This way one finds a good deal of chord options.

The lowest slider position is supposed to be the most conventional chord option in relation to its preceding chord.

Note: The software only works with midi and leaves audio as well as rhythmical aspects untouched...

Downloading, installing and setting up Liquid Notes is pretty fast and easy. Connecting the sequencer (Im using Logic Pro 9) with LN is not as smooth as it would be with a plug-in (kinda obvious as LN seems to be a standalone software) but you get used to it and the wizard is a good guide.

Exporting midi files from the sequencer and importing it to LN finally gets you started- again a bit "bumpy" but, oh well.
Then you have to define which tracks are harmony, melody, bass and percussion tracks- I guess that has to do with the harmony- analysis. Also you can choose if a track should stick to the melodic or harmonic patterns- I still haven't completely figured out what the difference really is, but if I do I will keep you guys posted.

now to the fun part:

I would basically outline three ways how to use Liquid Notes (there might be more, but that's just how I see it)

1. Changing an existing piece: I composed a piece the other day and tried to alter it with LN- great fun and in my situation really helpful: Im currently working on a film- project as the composer- Little time, hard deadlines. With LN its really simple to change existing chords. In my case I needed to change the mood of the main theme from major to minor. Using that chord-slider, the whole process took me like a minute to change a 4 min piece. It usually takes me forever to do that as I am using more than 6 tracks. And the more time you have the more you can play around with the different chord options- really great fun!

You can also change the tension of a chord to make your piece sound more jazzy. Didn't really need that but I totally see its potential.

2. Creating completely new ideas:
my favorite aspect: If you're out if ideas, LN functions as an awesome source of inspiration. It's true that LN can only change what is already there, but I figured that if I record (or type in the midi notes of) 32 bars, each containing the same chord (like C major) I could just let LN help me to pick new chords- works perfectly. Again me being a film composer I really appreciate the efficiency and possibilities.

3. Improvising with Liquid Notes
I haven't really tested this function too much but here is how it works: You hook up your keyboard (or if you don't have one, you can just use the keyboard on your computer) and improvise to the piece that is currently playing in LN. You improvise on the white keys of your keyboard (the black ones won't be recognized) and the software makes sure that you to play in the actual scale. They say you can't play any wrong notes... I guess that's true from a theoretical standpoint, but that will not guarantee that the improvisation sounds any good- haha. It is great fun though and I could really see even using it while performing live acts.

Overall speaking I have to say that I am fascinated. Yes, there are some bumpy parts in setting up the program and importing, exporting midi files can be a minor hassle at some point (whenever you change midi notes in the sequencer and want to continue in LN you have to re-export and import to LN and when you're done in LN you have to export and re-import to the sequencer) but the actual experience with LN exceeded my expectations.

I really recommend to all of you to at least download the trial version and see for yourselves!

But now I was wondering if anyone else had anything to say about their user-experience with Liquid Notes?!

I will probably buy the software (199€ is bit pricey, but I can totally see how this software could change my ways of composing music,) but before I do that it would be great if you guys could share some experiences! This forum seems to be the place to get this kind of information.

Hope this text was valuable!

[swedrian]

I just recorded a screencast about using Liquid Notes while creating a piece- that should give a basic idea of what the program does (6min):

check it out guys:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVlJvSGy3U0

[BodyByStarbucks]

thanks for the vid!

[DSK]

Thanks for your extensive input and welcome to the forum.

Great video BTW!

I'll chime in with my experience once I've demoed it.

[BodyByStarbucks]

really enjoying this tool. It grew on us the last few weeks and finally made the buy. There is nothing else like it that we've found.
Great job, Liquids!

[AcoosticZoo]

This program is a godsend. Great idea and implementation imho - gonna try the trial.

About pricing, Programs like MasterWriter (songwriting tool) Cost 200usd. 200 euro is a little on the steep if Liquid Notes were round 200 USD, it would be an easier choice.

as I'm a fan of speeding up workflow, I'm really interested in Liquid Notes.

any plans for a special launch price?


Regards
Josef Horhay
Mixing Engineer
www.acoosticzoo.com

[AcoosticZoo]

tried the trial and wasn't able to export midi.

got this prompt when trying export midi.

doesn't seem like the trial mode let's you export the midi - can anyone confirm this or am I doing something wrong here?

[bliquid25]

@AcoosticZoo

This is correct. The trial version does come with all bells and whistles of the standard version of Liquid Notes, except for the capability to export projects.

The price of Liquid Notes in the US will be set at $199 (excl. tax). Please note that the price in Euro includes the sales tax (=final price), as this is the standard in (Continental) Europe.

We are working on starting US-operations, and will inform here about the launch and any special offers we might provide. Stay tuned for an update.

[bliquid25]

Originally Posted by swedrian

I just recorded a screencast about using Liquid Notes ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVlJvSGy3U0

@swedrian

Thanks, awesome work! We like it very much.