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Steven Slate debuts The RAVEN X1 Production Console
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#121
23rd January 2012
Old 23rd January 2012
  #121
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If you're looking for suggestions I'd love to see a nice weighted or unweighted MIDI keyboard built into the front of the desk as an option. Here's how I've cribbed it together with my Control 24, which means raising the 24 to allow for legroom and proper keyboard height. However, as you can see, with custom construction that keyboard could be closer to the fader surface. This would solve a big problem for a lot of us.

Also, FWIW, I find the closer-together faders on the Control 24 feel great and work great, and it's nice having them close together. I'm guessing the only reason faders are so far apart on an analog console is to accommodate the electronics underneath.

Anyhow, good luck with it.

-R
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#122
23rd January 2012
Old 23rd January 2012
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Slate View Post
Hi Ryan, thanks for the input. It appears that these issues have ceased with the Avid re-branded fader packs. The faders work great and bank extremely fast. I love the feel of them too, they don't feel flimsy like some other faders I've tried. Ultimately I think going with the Avid was a great decision, especially based on cost and functionality which is important according to what has been said in this thread. To make something that would compete with what Avid already has with the MC Mixes would increase the cost of this board immensely, and no one is gonna want that.

Cheers,
Steven
Steven, first off, thanks so much for the speedy response and your overall presence on the forum. There's not much better than a company with great customer service that you can rely on. Please don't ever lose that.

Secondly, you're right. Banking is fine with the Artist Mix. I just went and checked ours. I should have been more clear. It's switching between Show/Hide markers that is extremely slow. Try setting up a handful of show/hide markers then click on 5 or 6 of them, go grab a sandwich, come back and watch the faders still try to figure out where they are.

Also, any word on modding the Artist Mix so the mute/solo buttons are correct? Hell, if Slate Pro Audio was able to make an authorized "Steven Slate Artist Mix" with a few fixes, I would hop on that in a heartbeat. However, I know it's not that simple.

Thanks again.
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#123
23rd January 2012
Old 23rd January 2012
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSt0rm View Post
Hey guys,

I hate to add to the fire but I invented the arm rest.
This is my sketch up. Pardon the age as I did it a long time ago.

LOL
#124
23rd January 2012
Old 23rd January 2012
  #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Slate View Post
I'll say right now I'm quite against a dedicated eq and dynamics section for a few reasons:

There is another controller that has these functions, and I have used it and found it very annoying when my favorite eqs or dynamic processors don't align with the knobs.. OR have special knobs beyond the typical ones that I can't assign.. It seems really yesteryear to me...

Loving the feedback, keep it coming.

Cheers,
Steven
What about a dedicated knob and button section to control plugins which could be fully customizable and could be assigned to each plugin via software that your company could write?

Users could customize their settings and save them as presets.

Touch screens are great for some things, but real knobs are better for others.
#125
23rd January 2012
Old 23rd January 2012
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benprogfuse View Post
What about a dedicated knob and button section to control plugins which could be fully customizable and could be assigned to each plugin via software that your company could write?

Users could customize their settings and save them as presets.

Touch screens are great for some things, but real knobs are better for others.
Amen to that. have you seen one of my previous posts Ben?
#126
23rd January 2012
Old 23rd January 2012
  #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Cube View Post
Amen to that. have you seen one of my previous posts Ben?
I agree and was thinking some of the same things. Maybe have between 8 - 16 knobs which could also be combined with an iPad for touch screen and real knob control at the same time.

I think that one of the most appealing things from the Icon D-Control is the center plugin control section and it would be a missed opportunity for this console not to have one, considering all of the empty space on the front and all of the knobs that it already has.

When first viewing this console, I assumed that it already had something like that.

There should be built in presets for each plugin, then the ability to customize the controls by assigning the knobs with software and store the settings.
#127
24th January 2012
Old 24th January 2012
  #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSt0rm View Post
Hey guys,

I hate to add to the fire but I invented the arm rest.
This is my sketch up. Pardon the age as I did it a long time ago.


Yeah... but you're using MY standing lamp design in that drawing!

Expect to see my armies by nightfall.

Yer gonna get such a pinch... yer not gonna be able to sit down for a week mister!!!

SM.
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#128
24th January 2012
Old 24th January 2012
  #128
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wait a second we may all be in trouble. Jesus invented the table and chairs

#129
24th January 2012
Old 24th January 2012
  #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benprogfuse View Post
I agree and was thinking some of the same things. Maybe have between 8 - 16 knobs which could also be combined with an iPad for touch screen and real knob control at the same time.

I think that one of the most appealing things from the Icon D-Control is the center plugin control section and it would be a missed opportunity for this console not to have one, considering all of the empty space on the front and all of the knobs that it already has.

When first viewing this console, I assumed that it already had something like that.

There should be built in presets for each plugin, then the ability to customize the controls by assigning the knobs with software and store the settings.
+1

Telepathy, is a beautiful thing )
#130
24th January 2012
Old 24th January 2012
  #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSt0rm View Post
wait a second we may all be in trouble. Jesus invented the table and chairs

HahhaHAhahAHAhah!

you made my day
#131
24th January 2012
Old 24th January 2012
  #131
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A few here have asked for a central bank of faders, perhaps with a pullout drawer below to accommodate a keyboard, mouse, iPad or whatnot. Sweet spot faders are a big plus.

But instead of a pullout drawer (which sits low, and pushes you farther away from the work when extended), how about a plexiglas keyboard/mouse tray that sits atop the faders, straddling them...and rolls side to side on tracks that run the length of the fader bank. Big consoles in the film world are sometimes equipped with this kind of thing, for scores or scripts or whatever. In their case the tray sits atop the upper parts of the modules (EQs, etc) leaving all faders exposed, but there's no reason it couldn't sit above the faders. Just push it aside if you want to work faders in the sweet spot, and roll it in for edits & such when needed.

One of the biggest ergonomic hassles in the ITB mix world is the fact that the keyboard and faders ideally want to occupy the same real estate. This would be one way for them to easily share that space.
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#132
24th January 2012
Old 24th January 2012
  #132
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Good thoughts all around folks. Joseph we've been working on a similar floating keyboard rack (although I like your idea about it sliding on a track), and will have to compare it to a keyboard/mouse rack that sits in front of the faders. Ultimately, it would be more convenient if we can keep the RAVEN controls at arms reach while having both a fader bank and the mouse keyboard in front. The sliding floating tray is something to investigate as well. As you've said, everything wants that front real estate. When it comes to designing the ultimate production console, its all about location location location.

Now lets talk about plugin control. If you spoke to me a year ago from today, I would have revealed that Fabrice and I were in discussions about making a production board with completely tactile knob control for plugins.

But now I'm convinced this is an older way of thinking. No matter what we do, there will be plugins that simply will not map to the knobs as you'd wish, or you'll have to bank certain knobs, or you'll have to carefully examine the scribble strips of these knobs (probably abreviated) to find out just what is what! In my time with control surfaces with knobs for plugin control, I found myself getting frustrated easily and just using the mouse, and I know of several mixers who have said the same to me.

For the right plugin, yes I agree this would be handy. But just for a moment, climb in my future bus.

If you're like me, the idea of touchscreen is a bit odd, especially with something like moving a fader or a plugin knob. But if you talk to my nephew who is ten years old and lives on his iPad, he'll tell you anything BUT touchscreen is clunky and odd.

My point is, that old habits and ways of thinking die hard, but that doesn't mean that you can't get used to something new, and even find it to be a better solution.

This is what happened to me as I started beta testing the Neyrinck V Control. I started to love tweaking eqs by simply turning the knobs on the touch screen. I have full faith that Paul can make that into a crucial application for any DAW studio.

So in my opinion, I want to be future proof and have a dedicated spot for iPAD for plugin control, and I feel strongly on this. If I can go from using a laser mouse to a trackball, something I thought I'd NEVER be able to do, then I know this can happen.

Having said all that, I welcome a counterpoint if you have one.

Cheers,
Steven
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#133
24th January 2012
Old 24th January 2012
  #133
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kool wow!!!
#134
24th January 2012
Old 24th January 2012
  #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSt0rm View Post
Hey guys,

I hate to add to the fire but I invented the arm rest.
This is my sketch up. Pardon the age as I did it a long time ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slipperman View Post
Yeah... but you're using MY standing lamp design in that drawing!

Expect to see my armies by nightfall.

Yer gonna get such a pinch... yer not gonna be able to sit down for a week mister!!!

SM.
What "drawing"????

That pictograph is etched into stone stolen from my quarry!

I'll teach you imps to slow down my grand epitaph with your petty designs.

Now where did I put the Scorpion Gods number...
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#135
24th January 2012
Old 24th January 2012
  #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Slate View Post
Good thoughts all around folks. Joseph we've been working on a similar floating keyboard rack (although I like your idea about it sliding on a track), and will have to compare it to a keyboard/mouse rack that sits in front of the faders. Ultimately, it would be more convenient if we can keep the RAVEN controls at arms reach while having both a fader bank and the mouse keyboard in front. The sliding floating tray is something to investigate as well. As you've said, everything wants that front real estate. When it comes to designing the ultimate production console, its all about location location location.

Now lets talk about plugin control. If you spoke to me a year ago from today, I would have revealed that Fabrice and I were in discussions about making a production board with completely tactile knob control for plugins.

But now I'm convinced this is an older way of thinking. No matter what we do, there will be plugins that simply will not map to the knobs as you'd wish, or you'll have to bank certain knobs, or you'll have to carefully examine the scribble strips of these knobs (probably abreviated) to find out just what is what! In my time with control surfaces with knobs for plugin control, I found myself getting frustrated easily and just using the mouse, and I know of several mixers who have said the same to me.

For the right plugin, yes I agree this would be handy. But just for a moment, climb in my future bus.

If you're like me, the idea of touchscreen is a bit odd, especially with something like moving a fader or a plugin knob. But if you talk to my nephew who is ten years old and lives on his iPad, he'll tell you anything BUT touchscreen is clunky and odd.

My point is, that old habits and ways of thinking die hard, but that doesn't mean that you can't get used to something new, and even find it to be a better solution.

This is what happened to me as I started beta testing the Neyrinck V Control. I started to love tweaking eqs by simply turning the knobs on the touch screen. I have full faith that Paul can make that into a crucial application for any DAW studio.

So in my opinion, I want to be future proof and have a dedicated spot for iPAD for plugin control, and I feel strongly on this. If I can go from using a laser mouse to a trackball, something I thought I'd NEVER be able to do, then I know this can happen.

Having said all that, I welcome a counterpoint if you have one.

Cheers,
Steven
I couldn't agree more. To me, the point of the tactile knob is not just the physical aspect of it, but also the guarantee to know what is going to happen.

I would like to see a small keyboard having priority over the faders in the centre space. However, perhaps it is possible to have the keyboard in the centre and the faders right above (in the horizontal plane) them - if the depth of the keyboard is small like on a laptop, it would be fine for me.

Keeping the price low whilest still having all the analog functionality is key to me.

Greetings,
Dirk
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#136
24th January 2012
Old 24th January 2012
  #136
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Come on......no love for a Virtual Dynamic/EQ Collection plugin with dedicated control section?? This way we can have hands on control for slate dynamic/eq while controlling third party plugin by an ipad(maybe i am dream about it too much....?!??)

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#137
24th January 2012
Old 24th January 2012
  #137
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Furthermore, the MC MIX fader packs can load up plugin parameters on Faders and on Knobs. I don't see how this would be much different than any logic knobs that we would put on the desk.

In good news, I think I have a design that would handle dual monitors.

Cheers,
Steven
#138
24th January 2012
Old 24th January 2012
  #138
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I pleased to see you sensibly haven't added shelves for speakers.

I'm always shocked to see just how many commercial and home made workstations have a shelf/shelves for speakers that place the front of the speaker inline with the front of the computer screen!

I notice your design correctly leaves speakers to be put on stands behind the Raven.
I suppose your hoping people will place the new Sirens behind the Raven.

I know I will be .... after I work out the correct numbers for this weeks lottery that is :-)

tht
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#139
24th January 2012
Old 24th January 2012
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thehightenor View Post
I pleased to see you sensibly haven't added shelves for speakers.

I'm always shocked to see just how many commercial and home made workstations have a shelf/shelves for speakers that place the front of the speaker inline with the front of the computer screen!

I notice your design correctly leaves speakers to be put on stands behind the Raven.
I suppose your hoping people will place the new Sirens behind the Raven.

I know I will be .... after I work out the correct numbers for this weeks lottery that is :-)

tht
YES! Speakers do NOT belong on a meter bridge or on shelves over the console.. I am very adamant about this. I wrote an article on the matter that will appear on our site soon. Speakers on the console top create a comb filtering nightmare that severly smears the image. I always recommend speaker stands behind the desk, at least 12" but often more. Thanks for noticing this.

Cheers,
Steven
#140
24th January 2012
Old 24th January 2012
  #140
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I think the idea to integrate an iPad for plugin control is fantastic!

Personally I'd like to see the addition of a single delicious-feeling rotary controller, right beside the iPad. Instead of trying to manipulate a knob or fader on the touch-screen, you tap plugin's knob on the iPad, then twist the physical knob. Switches and buttons would work in the "normal" touchscreen way, with a tap.

Visually, the parameter you tap would need to be highlighted, or boxed, so you know what the physical knob is in control of at any point.

So, tactile control but with quick parameter selection by tapping the screen. I believe some Novation and maybe M-Audio keyboards have something like this, but you need to hover the mouse over the desired parameter...

I agree with Steven that having a set of knobs to control every possible plugin will never work satisfactorily. But for good tactile control, and especially automation, I'd like something like the above.
#141
24th January 2012
Old 24th January 2012
  #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Slate View Post
Furthermore, the MC MIX fader packs can load up plugin parameters on Faders and on Knobs. I don't see how this would be much different than any logic knobs that we would put on the desk.

In good news, I think I have a design that would handle dual monitors.

Cheers,
Steven
cus it's a bit low brow!!!!
#142
24th January 2012
Old 24th January 2012
  #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Slate View Post
Speakers on the console top create a comb filtering nightmare that severly smears the image.

No they DON'T! They create SOME comb filtering which hasn't stopped just about every record ever mixed from getting to a finished state! Sure, as a fact you are absolutely right. But it's far from a nightmare..... Although it has to be said - I don't put my speakers on the 'bridge!!


I still say the inclusion of the Avid Mix faders and Ipad control space are a bit low brow. They are the weak link (although the Ipad has creative uses I can't see the high investment studio going that route). Who is your target market? Seems to be SOME confusion..... however - i love all the bits that you guys have developed...!
#143
24th January 2012
Old 24th January 2012
  #143
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GREAT... cool idea.

10k, wouldn't believe that, I'd guess it'd be more of 20k...
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#144
24th January 2012
Old 24th January 2012
  #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thehightenor View Post
I pleased to see you sensibly haven't added shelves for speakers.

I'm always shocked to see just how many commercial and home made workstations have a shelf/shelves for speakers that place the front of the speaker inline with the front of the computer screen!

I notice your design correctly leaves speakers to be put on stands behind the Raven.
I suppose your hoping people will place the new Sirens behind the Raven.

tht
Every once in a while I'll be listening to music and suspicious that there was a computer monitor smack dab in the middle of the sound field during mix time. I find that there is a correlation between a better centre mix in my mixes and not having a big reflective shield in front of me when mixing.

It's less to do with speakers on shelves or monitor bridges than I've never liked the idea of a monitor inline or in front of computer monitors. Fine, have the speakers behind the desk if you have the room, but have your computer monitors even further behind them.
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#145
24th January 2012
Old 24th January 2012
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I'm a dual screen user. I think an optional monitor stand or arm for screens up to 50" would be nice.
#146
24th January 2012
Old 24th January 2012
  #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jindrich View Post
The stuff posted in GS back in Feb 2008 was just the tip of the iceberg.

.



Everything we did back then was registered, and that includes not just the overall concept, but a dedicated central panel for audio, EuCon and monitoring, MIDI reset for external devices, etc etc.

Despite the fact that the project didn't end up being produced, we did it first (and REGISTERED IT).
Then, several years after, someone comes and taking bits of info from the web, clones it and claims it is his design, despite the fact that he even contacts me asking for help.

These are the facts.
I'm curious, when you say registered do you mean you applied for a patent? In the US there are only three main forms of IP protection: patent, copyright, and trademark. It seems your device would need patent protection.

Euphonix actually has a number of patents on control surfaces, here's one if you are interested:

United States Patent: 7441193
#147
24th January 2012
Old 24th January 2012
  #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jindrich View Post
The stuff posted in GS back in Feb 2008 was just the tip of the iceberg.

Once we started to improve things, we realized the whole thing was in fact nothing but a chaotic lego puzzle, so a better approach was required, and this meant to design first a dedicated central section.

The central section was going to integrate the entire DAW control, handle all audio paths and main monitoring tasks and provide ample metering, surround included.

From this point on we started to develop a main controller section that would work the EuCon protocol -which at the time was still open to 3rd party manufacturers- which would integrate the Euphonix faders (or any other EuCon compatible device).

Then we added facilities for MIDI integration of 3rd party devices, as well as a dedicated monitoring section (analog, AES, spdif) in stereo and up to 5.1, not forgetting talkback, VU and LED metering, etc, etc.

Dozens of logical/electrical/software designs were made. The picture shows one of the prototypes considered :




What happened to the project? A main tragic event changed everything: my father died suddenly from a heart attack, so I left everything and went back home to take care of my family stuff for the next few years.

As the project was somehow left aside, I know some pics of some of the further designs made it to the web.
I can't tell how many of them reached Steven Slate, but it's obvious this "Raven X1" wouldn't have existed at all if it weren't for my original thread in GS and the further stuff we worked on, designing the center panel and all the rest.

It's also a fact that Steven Slate contacted me in September 2011 asking for help for a "project he was working on after seeing my original thread in GS".



Everything we did back then was registered, and that includes not just the overall concept, but a dedicated central panel for audio, EuCon and monitoring, MIDI reset for external devices, etc etc.

Despite the fact that the project didn't end up being produced, we did it first (and REGISTERED IT).
Then, several years after, someone comes and taking bits of info from the web, clones it and claims it is his design, despite the fact that he even contacts me asking for help.

These are the facts.
maybe you got a thanks in the user manuel. Lol

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#148
24th January 2012
Old 24th January 2012
  #148
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I agree this is a big problem, but how do you see all the little squiggles on the screen with your computer monitor set back behind the speakers? Maybe a huge monitor would be the best.
#149
24th January 2012
Old 24th January 2012
  #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Halloween View Post
maybe you got a thanks in the user manuel. Lol

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I'd say that lol is for your spelling.

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#150
24th January 2012
Old 24th January 2012
  #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by travisbrown View Post
Every once in a while I'll be listening to music and suspicious that there was a computer monitor smack dab in the middle of the sound field during mix time. I find that there is a correlation between a better centre mix in my mixes and not having a big reflective shield in front of me when mixing.
I just expanded my mix/acoustic tracking room to double size by tearing down a wall. When trying out different positions for the nearfields (still ongoing) I was plainly SHOCKED how much better the centre image became when I decided to lay down the computer monitor flat on its face.

Quote:
Originally Posted by travisbrown View Post
It's less to do with speakers on shelves or monitor bridges than I've never liked the idea of a monitor inline or in front of computer monitors. Fine, have the speakers behind the desk if you have the room, but have your computer monitors even further behind them.
I'm trying to figure it out. Of course, IF the monitors are close to a wall then it's better to have the real close which obviously.....but wait...what about 'Soffit mounting' a computer monitor. I'm sure it has been done!
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