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Steven Slate debuts The RAVEN X1 Production Console
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#451
18th February 2012
Old 18th February 2012
  #451
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Originally Posted by GearNerd View Post
Boohoo!!! Cry me a river.

Have fun living in the past!
Past is a lot nicer than the future.

Regards,
Frank
#452
18th February 2012
Old 18th February 2012
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Originally Posted by ionian View Post
Past is a lot nicer than the future.

Regards,
Frank
Hmmmm........how can you possibly know that when the future has not happened yet?
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#453
18th February 2012
Old 18th February 2012
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Originally Posted by Quantum7 View Post
Hmmmm........how can you possibly know that when the future has not happened yet?
Like the saying goes, "Better the devil you know, than the devil you don't."

Regards,
Frank
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Steven Slate
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#454
18th February 2012
Old 18th February 2012
  #454
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioSoundzz View Post
First of all imo you proved it to yourself and no one else (and you have reasons to be bias so it gives me pause). I think to get into a digital vs analog argument is not needed and a waste of energy. I use both together and their is a synergy in that which works for me. I like real knobs - navigating on a ipad is a pain on the fingers and eyes. Most people will agree after working 10 hours on one imo. Digital eq and compressors sound different than analog ones. The VCC Trident sounds different than my Trident. I have analog gear with NO plug equivalents. The list goes on and on so at the end of the day I will work hybrid as I can pick and choose the best tools for each song while people stuck in their only digital dogma or analog dogma are more limited. To me "forward thinking" is to be hybrid and not in a digital or analog dogma. They will coexist imo for the rest of all our lives so I will use the power and advantages of both.
Hi there. It seems from your posts that you are very set in your ways, and I can understand that. But it also seems that you have no desire or intention to examine new possibilities. That's where we differ, because back when I mixed in a hybrid setup, I became obsessed with figuring out a better way... I wanted to ditch the analog badly! It infuriated me to have to clean up a scratchy fader knowing that I was relying on this beast made in 1987. Hence the VCC and now the Raven.

Change is not easy for many people.. I've already brought up my struggle to go from a standard mouse to a trackball, which I thought would never happen... but now the trackball is second nature. I think the same thing will happen regarding touchscreen control, digital mixing, and using digital tools to help make the music making process even better. The future is now. I say embrace it.

Cheers,
Steven
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#455
18th February 2012
Old 18th February 2012
  #455
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Slate View Post
The dual monitor thing we've been tossing around.. but it creates another issue..

To accommodate a dual monitor, we'll need a wider gap in the middle of the Raven, and the controls will be less reachable from the seat of the desk. For dual monitor guys, can splitting up a 27" display work as a compromise, given the Raven's other features?
Well that's not very true. All you need is dual monitor articulated desktop mount arm, like the grandstand 8552 MA-double, that you can place in a way that your screens are further behind the near-field monitors, this way you don't need more spacing in between your monitors. Your screen will just be a bit further away from you and closer to the wall.
#456
18th February 2012
Old 18th February 2012
  #456
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ionian View Post
Like the saying goes, "Better the devil you know, than the devil you don't."

Regards,
Frank
Sometimes I do think back fondly on my old C64 and Atari ST days, but I am absolutely LOVING where music technology is heading. I am continually amazed what I can do these days in my home studio compared years back and look forward every year at the technologies that continue to keep me in awe. The Future- Bring it on!!!!!!!
#457
18th February 2012
Old 18th February 2012
  #457
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Quote:
Hi there. It seems from your posts that you are very set in your ways, and I can understand that. But it also seems that you have no desire or intention to examine new possibilities. That's where we differ, because back when I mixed in a hybrid setup, I became obsessed with figuring out a better way... I wanted to ditch the analog badly! It infuriated me to have to clean up a scratchy fader knowing that I was relying on this beast made in 1987. Hence the VCC and now the Raven.

Change is not easy for many people.. I've already brought up my struggle to go from a standard mouse to a trackball, which I thought would never happen... but now the trackball is second nature. I think the same thing will happen regarding touchscreen control, digital mixing, and using digital tools to help make the music making process even better. The future is now. I say embrace it.
Quite to the contrary as I was completely ITB for 3 years (before you did it) even though I own over two hundred thousand in outboard gear so I do not think I am afraid of change. It was an interesting experiment in work flow but I found it limited in scope and options and many of my mixes suffered as a result. Now, I can change as fast as needed because some mixes I still do completely ITB and some are hybrid. How is having all options available not changing with the times? To suggest that digital only dogma is the future seems silly to me.

I think their may be a need for what your design is addressing for those who can live with the limitations of the digital only world and who can work using a ipad. I am using this forum to state my needs and make suggestions which I thought you requested as the reason for it to begin with, not to argue with you wanting to change the "way I think" or be insulted that I am not forward thinking because I do not agree this design is suited for me. I thought hybrid solutions were already being address as you have some of your hardware in the pictures I got my hopes up In the mean time I will continue using the VCC for my ITB projects and be happy in the analog/digital hybrid world as well and be forward thinking about the many mixes needing completion. I wish you success brother and thanks for your entertaining and engaging posts!
#458
18th February 2012
Old 18th February 2012
  #458
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Hey Steven!

Looks great so far. One thing to maybe keep in the back of your mind is that Apple will probably be doing away with it's dock connector eventually. Once they figure out how to use wireless electricity efficiently to charge their iOS devices, there will be no need for a dock connection as all updates/backups/syncs can already be done wirelessly.

I believe there's a technology called wi-tricity that they are experimenting with. I saw a demo once of it and it was powering a flatscreen HDTV wirelessly!

This may be way off in the future though, but it most definitely is coming!
#459
18th February 2012
Old 18th February 2012
  #459
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spencerc View Post
Hey Steven!

Looks great so far. One thing to maybe keep in the back of your mind is that Apple will probably be doing away with it's dock connector eventually. Once they figure out how to use wireless electricity efficiently to charge their iOS devices, there will be no need for a dock connection as all updates/backups/syncs can already be done wirelessly.

I believe there's a technology called wi-tricity that they are experimenting with. I saw a demo once of it and it was powering a flatscreen HDTV wirelessly!

This may be way off in the future though, but it most definitely is coming!
Wireless electricity is most likely an inevitability.... considering that Tesla was experimenting with some success with this 100 years ago, but I still think that developers should take into account what is utilized NOW, and iOS stuff is "in" currently.

With respect, though, I do believe that Steve is over-estimating the 2013 demise of the CD. A majority of the world cannot afford to switch to new technologies so quickly, and solely based on that I believe that a medium like the CD will still be viable for at least another 5 to 7 years.

Now hurry up and give us those updated pictures of the Raven!!!!!!!
#460
18th February 2012
Old 18th February 2012
  #460
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Quote:
With respect, though, I do believe that Steve is over-estimating the 2013 demise of the CD. A majority of the world cannot afford to switch to new technologies so quickly, and solely based on that I believe that a medium like the CD will still be viable for at least another 5 to 7 years.
Ha - even vinyl records are still being pressed and the numbers increase each year. Some customers will always want high quality and real collectable items to not only support the artist but their collection fancy. I love to give CDs as gifts and always get a smile from the receiver! Downloads have little sex appeal and physical products carry a higher perception of worth. Imo, CDs or even a better physical medium are here to stay folks. And - I am a record label owner and have seen sales of CDs go up substantially in 2011 along with many artists I produce.
#461
18th February 2012
Old 18th February 2012
  #461
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Vulture View Post
OMG!
Slate says his plugins is JUST AS GOOD as any analog console.
Dudes, this is getting just stupid..
He is even arrogant about it.

Incredible..

I am laughing way to hard now
Unfortunately this forum does not have an "ignore all messages by this user" option like some other forums do (at least not that I am aware of - if somebody knows how please let me know)

It would really make this forum a whole lot more enjoyable to bypass all of the folks who have nothing constructive to contribute, and just create a bunch of negativity and NOISE.

Vulture, please go find another thread to troll in. There are plenty of great ones for you in the "Moan Zone".
#462
18th February 2012
Old 18th February 2012
  #462
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A few thoughts...

I own nothing by Slate...yet. I like the man's passion. Some of the things he states are a little far-reaching for me, but a LOT of the comments he is greeted with seem to force him to take this stance. I'm glad he defends his designs, but its pretty clear to me that there will NEVER be one sort of "cookie-cutter" method of working. Some choose a mouse...some choose a track-ball. Some choose ITB...some choose hybrid. Very, very few places are purely analog anymore...sure, they exist, but at this point, I feel (as "cool" as that is), they are only missing out on some incredible tools and toys at this point.

Can I work entirely in-the-box? Sure I can...and a LOT easier, and with much better results than I could several years ago. Do I do it all the time? Absolutely not...but will on tight budgets/deadlines (same thing really). Will I do it all the time anytime soon? Absolutely not. Does that make it right? No. Does it make it wrong? No.

It just seems like too many irrelevant things are entering into this conversation. The Raven X1 should/will either stand on its own, and find a way into my (and others) workflow, or not. Do vinyl (probably the finest medium ever) sales have any place in this conversation? I don't think so; If Slate was attaching a cutting lathe to the side of the desk, then perhaps. CD sales? We all know they're declining. I think it is pointless trying to pinpoint exactly when they'll be "dead." We ALL have the tools to listen...and burn CDs, so who gives a shite about that?

I can see why CDs (and their decline) have made their way into the conversation, though...the inclusion of an iWhatever dock. I think the first thing to clear up on it is that a "dock" is merely an adapter...pretty much universally to USB these days. In this case I would assume the dock just terminates to an internal USB port...extras of which are included externally for other phones/devices that don't have a standardized "dock" as common as Apple's. What is all the bloody uproar about? Its just a convenience...but a relevant one.

If Apple changes the dock protocol, will it render the Raven useless? No. Just swap out one $5 (tops) Dock to USB cable for another. If Apple eliminates the dock due to wireless electricity, will the Raven be a door-stop? No...because there will always be modern day dinosaurs like me (still on an iPhone 3G...waiting for the 5 to upgrade ) that will have a use for the "useless" dock for several years after.

One little connector has brought on so many spin-off conversations. I just don't get it. Its is by FAR the most "universal" connector out there...spanning multiple devices and generations...and its just a glorified USB connector...why all the fuss? Anyway...in the spirit of the thread...I'm getting off track...

If the Raven X1 stands on its own, and fits my workflow...which it appears it just might; certainly in one of my rooms...then great! But...if I'm told I MUST use a track-ball and MUST only use VCC, SSD etc, etc...I'm out.

Anyway...would love to see some updated glamour shots, Mr Slate! At least the conversation will freshen up because the naysayers will have new material to rip to shreds!

Keep up the good work. All the best,

Ken
#463
18th February 2012
Old 18th February 2012
  #463
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If using plugins to emulate decades old equipment is the future, why is it so heavily reliant on the past ie the decades old equipment?
I would have thought that someone truly forward thinking wouldn't be interested in emulating the sound of something old like a neve or a studer, but instead would be more focused on just making products that make recorded music "sound better" regardless. Neves and Studers were far from perfect.
If digital is the future why waste so much time on making it sound analog? Why not make it sound like better digital? That's forward thinking to me.

Unless of course the truth is that no matter what, analog will always sound better, in which case all that the emulations are doing is making an "analog" sound more accessible. Laudable? Sure, but it's still an emulation. The problem is, even after all these years, and many scientific tests and celebrity endorsements Diet Coke still doesn't taste like Coke.

Anyway I digress, I just came here to look at photos...
#464
18th February 2012
Old 18th February 2012
  #464
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roundaboutmusic View Post
If using plugins to emulate decades old equipment is the future, why is it so heavily reliant on the past ie the decades old equipment?
The point is to keep the good and side step the not-so-good aspects. That's why they model the old stuff. The old stuff sounds great in many cases. We want that. The workflow, cost and infrastructure is the hindrance. That's what plug-ins offer as advantageous. This is hardly a leap in reasoning. I wonder why so many people are stuck in their brains about it.

Quote:
...I would have thought that someone truly forward thinking wouldn't be interested in emulating the sound of something old like a neve or a studer, but instead would be more focused on just making products that make recorded music "sound better" regardless. Neves and Studers were far from perfect.
Which is why it's "forward thinking" to solve the problems of those devices. Plug-ins are one way to skin that cat. Whether or not they satisfy their intended goal is a matter for debate.
Quote:
...If digital is the future why waste so much time on making it sound analog? Why not make it sound like better digital? That's forward thinking to me.
That happens too. Plenty of plugs that do just that. It's not an either or. There's room for both approaches to processing digitally.

Quote:
...Unless of course the truth is that no matter what, analog will always sound better
Well that is what is in dispute and many experiments have consistently revealed that it's not so clean a line as to which always sounds "better" or even whether or not anything can be identified either way when the work is well done.
Quote:
...in which case all that the emulations are doing is making an "analog" sound more accessible. Laudable? Sure, but it's still an emulation. The problem is, even after all these years, and many scientific tests and celebrity endorsements Diet Coke still doesn't taste like Coke....
The problem is your false analogy. If you're certain that you can tell the difference so easily and that "diet Coke" is so obvious then take the challenge Slate laid out and you'll have a company that makes you a lot of money for free.
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#465
18th February 2012
Old 18th February 2012
  #465
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Enlightened Hand, you appear to share a brain with me because I couldn't have answered it any better.

And I want to say that I have no objections to the way anyone chooses to work. It's not my way or the highway. If you mix hybrid and like to do so, or even if you mix all analog and you are making great music.. then rock on!

My earlier arguments were to those who said that the ONLY way to make music sound good was to incorporate analog tools, and that digital tools were not sonically comparable. That's the part I think is bullshit.

And to show that I'm a reasonable man, I will admit that for the first time in a LOOONG time.. a client asked for his ref mixes on CD-R yesterday. But it was only because his girlfriend had borrowed his ipod.

Cheers,
Steven
#466
18th February 2012
Old 18th February 2012
  #466
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Slate View Post
My earlier arguments were to those who said that the ONLY way to make music sound good was to incorporate analog tools, and that digital tools were not sonically comparable. That's the part I think is bullshit.
Hallelujah!

Now...got any pr0n?
#467
20th February 2012
Old 20th February 2012
  #467
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enlightened Hand View Post
The point is to keep the good and side step the not-so-good aspects. That's why they model the old stuff. The old stuff sounds great in many cases. We want that. The workflow, cost and infrastructure is the hindrance. That's what plug-ins offer as advantageous. This is hardly a leap in reasoning. I wonder why so many people are stuck in their brains about it.

Which is why it's "forward thinking" to solve the problems of those devices. Plug-ins are one way to skin that cat. Whether or not they satisfy their intended goal is a matter for debate.
That happens too. Plenty of plugs that do just that. It's not an either or. There's room for both approaches to processing digitally.

Well that is what is in dispute and many experiments have consistently revealed that it's not so clean a line as to which always sounds "better" or even whether or not anything can be identified either way when the work is well done. The problem is your false analogy. If you're certain that you can tell the difference so easily and that "diet Coke" is so obvious then take the challenge Slate laid out and you'll have a company that makes you a lot of money for free.
Advantageous workk flow maybe (also we are pretty quick with analogue). But the shortcut is the sound. You can argue that a behringer which looks like something they have copied is "as good". Steven is very passionate about his products but I have bought 2 of everything he makes in software and it is definitely as expected. To dismiss it as "being stuck in your ways" or missing the way forward, or another communistic slogan is purely elitist and too dismissive of the real issue why the analogue tools are still superior. Sidestepping the real issues with software may be good for marketing but not great for people who use these tools. Its misleading in the name of $$$ at best.
If "close enough is good enough" argument is good enough for you then so be it. But most people I know can achieve superior results much quicker on analogue tools then fiddling around countless hours on digital trying to replicate that sound.
But horses for courses of course. Some people like the sound of plugins and achieve THEIR sound with them . Fair enough.
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#468
20th February 2012
Old 20th February 2012
  #468
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
Advantageous workk flow maybe (also we are pretty quick with analogue). But the shortcut is the sound. .
If I posted a mix that was summed through a zero'd out console, like an SSL4000, and one that was summed ITB with the VCC on its Brit 4K setting, do you think you'll be able to tell which is which?

Analog can be meticulously modeled with DSP, and can fool the human ear. I've heard it, and I'm certainly not the only one. We're both making claims here, only I've proven mine with a very calibrated and scientific blind A/B test. You're dismissing that in your own 'communistic' way.

Check out the BEACH BOYS "SMILE" record, on iTunes now. Mark Linett, who had access to any console he desired, mixed this through the VCC on the Brit N Discrete. Seems odd as he could have had such a better sound on this monumental record if he just mixed it analog.


Cheers,
Steven
#469
20th February 2012
Old 20th February 2012
  #469
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If I may still chime in about the features of a product I'd be seriously interested in... Just two points :

- The possibility of a sliding 88 keys master keyboard under the board is, in my humble case, a definite decision maker.
- The possibility of a dual display would be appreciated

I've read the thread and realize ths has been discussed before. Still, as I'm starting to really consider this product and do appreciate the calm and politeness of Mr. Slate, I'dd just add a voice on that account.

On a side note and while we're at it, I'd mention that I don't have the slightest interest in the analog vs. emulation debate. Not because it's obviously sterile - only because I do own some very nice outboard but will never be able to afford a Neve 88. Therefore, I have little choice but be interested in whatever is on the market in terms of tools to extract the sound I got in my head. On that particular matter, Mr. Slate (among others) seems to provide.

If I'm the only one in that case, I apologize for obviously wasting everybody's time. Otherwise, I'd really LOVE to see this thread include some update on the original topic.
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#470
20th February 2012
Old 20th February 2012
  #470
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wow, its beautiful!
#471
20th February 2012
Old 20th February 2012
  #471
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Hey Steve,
Hadn't heard of you before seeing this desk,

Just want to say man, your voice is incredible mate, so much so, with a voice like that I trust you've tuned your plugins very well. Gonna check it all out,

Make an album truly great voice.

'i'm referring to his slate drum video, at the end he rips into an old swooner, good stuff'
#472
20th February 2012
Old 20th February 2012
  #472
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Steven where's the new pictures? You're leaving us hanging!
#473
20th February 2012
Old 20th February 2012
  #473
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Washington View Post
- The possibility of a sliding 88 keys master keyboard under the board is, in my humble case, a definite decision maker.
^^Ditto - this would be great if the ergonomics could be solved.
#474
20th February 2012
Old 20th February 2012
  #474
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KUDOS!

Once again Mr Slate i must commend you on your calm and reasoned responses to the blowhards. Incredible to me that a post about a new product can devolve so quickly into the witless badinage evidenced on this thread. Actually it's NOT that incredible, it IS Gearslutz after all.

i use SSD4, it ain't perfect, the updates are slow in the delivery, it causes all sorts of glitchy shit to happen with my DAW, but it sounds awesome and has made my life in the studio easier. It was also a RIDICULOUS bargain with the "cross-grade". For those reasons, Slate gets my vote. Try dealing with the arrogant ****s @ FXpansion. Jimminy!

He's a guy with a singular vision, a desire to sing standards, and the balls to actually step into a field dominated by some shitty companies that have taken us all for granted for a very long time. Show the guy some respect, don't demean him or his confidence in his product. Check it out, if it ain't for you - well, DON'T GET ONE! Really kindof simple. He CLEARLY knows what he is doing, has taken the time to ask US, the users of his product, how he can make it better for us AND is implementing our needs into V2.0! Brilliant! Below i have listed the other companies with reps on Gearslutz that have done the same in the 5 years i have been a member:

1)
2)
3)
4)
5)

Right. Stow it. Let the man do his thing.
As you were Mr Slate.
#475
20th February 2012
Old 20th February 2012
  #475
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Washington View Post
- The possibility of a sliding 88 keys master keyboard under the board is, in my humble case, a definite decision maker.
- The possibility of a dual display would be appreciated
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smithcok View Post
^^Ditto - this would be great if the ergonomics could be solved.
Steven has stated here that both have been addressed. Possibility of dual 27's now...and a "Composers" option (I believe it was called), which will include a sliding 88-key shelf.
#476
20th February 2012
Old 20th February 2012
  #476
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Realtugs View Post
Steven has stated here that both have been addressed. Possibility of dual 27's now...and a "Composers" option (I believe it was called), which will include a sliding 88-key shelf.
Great - excited for new pics.
#477
20th February 2012
Old 20th February 2012
  #477
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Esoteric Responses

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Slate View Post

Check out the BEACH BOYS "SMILE" record, on iTunes now. Mark Linett, who had access to any console he desired, mixed this through the VCC on the Brit N Discrete. Seems odd as he could have had such a better sound on this monumental record if he just mixed it analog.

Cheers,
Steven
Well, maybe. Other issue's might have come into play. Profit for one. I'm not saying that this is what happened but a scenario might exist where not spending on all outboard might have saved some budget somewhere... thus more money to someone, somewhere... along with the thinking that the audio would still be "good enough" for the ipod/earbud era.

That aside, I have always wondered about "A/B ing" an initial visceral (gut response) to music. Is the visceral response the same when comparing different reproduction formats ? Can we ever hope to repeat a visceral response ? Have we been trained to "listen through" the sound of digital to still get that initial visceral response ? Or have we just accepted a new visceral response as "good" ? I'm not sure that critical listening tests of audio files will provide any answer.

Is the initial visceral response stored in the brain as a "highlight moment" being drawn off of to color our perception of a replay of the physical situation (sound occurring) that created that sought after "highlight moment" (no matter what format is presented later) ?

Listening repeatedly to try to preceive sonic differences in audio files deals with a different set of issue's than attempting to elicit a specific gut response from a first time listener to a song. Just because one cannot perceive a difference in audio files (during critical listening tests) does not mean that the exact visceral response will be generated in a listener regardless of which file is played (with all of the human factors being equal at the moment of perception).

Now add vinyl and tape playback to the discussion and the listeners initial visceral response will be too unique/esoteric to ever "duplicate".

How can we ever compare/emulate what could be considered a subconscious response ?

I guess, in the end, times change and we must accept that certain archetypal feelings and emotions might be gone forever... along with the persons who were aware of them and could conjure up those feelings and emotions in the first place.

I do understand that you are just trying to "scientifically" make the format decision a moot point.

But, because of the above factors listed, I believe that this is why certain people will resist the notion that if it "sounds the same" it is the same.
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A4722
#478
20th February 2012
Old 20th February 2012
  #478
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A4722 View Post
Well, maybe. Other issue's might have come into play. Profit for one. I'm not saying that this is what happened but a scenario might exist where not spending on all outboard might have saved some budget somewhere... thus more money to someone, somewhere... along with the thinking that the audio would still be "good enough" for the ipod/earbud era.
Well now you're just p*ssing into the wind.
#479
20th February 2012
Old 20th February 2012
  #479
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Slate View Post
Is it that odd to think that in 2012, we don't have the power and brains to recreate what an analog circuit is doing? Because we can. I've heard it. Today again, we did an A/B of a famous 2" 16 track tape machine and a plugin we are just completing that intends to emulate it's sound. And again, not one single person in the room, including Howie Weinberg, a mastering engineer with superman style ears and more platinum records than anyone I know, could firmly tell the real from the digital.

So yes, I'm arrogant in what I say. Because I've done a scientific test to prove it. And so I've proved it to my own ears, I've proven it to other professionals that I respect, and in the end.. I know that when I mix ITB using the emulations, the results are amazing.

I'm sorry AudioSoundzz if you think I'm demeaning you.. I can promise you that it's not my intentions.

But I'm not going to keep my mouth closed when there are still claims that nothing in the world can replace an analog signal path in terms of its sonic results. Because it's just not true anymore. And I'm not going to pretend its blasphemy to say that we can have the sound of analog recreated by digital algorithms. If you don't agree, that's fine. But I don't think it merits such controversy.

I've proven it at this very forum by posting blind A/B files, and it seems like I"ll have to do it again to drive the point home. If an analog desk clearly sounds better than ITB using console emulation, then it'll be easy to identify.

This industry is moving along with the digital revolution. You can either deny it, or make it work for you.. and you might find the results even better.

Cheers,
Steven
Nuff said..
#480
21st February 2012
Old 21st February 2012
  #480
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vice versa

Quote:
Originally Posted by StoneinaPond View Post
Well now you're just p*ssing into the wind.
Then, according to that logic, so would be saying that the guy made the choice for whatever reason, regardless of what he tells you... unless you see the books....

The idea that he chose the "best sounding option" because it was such an important project is not proof that it was the reason he made that choice.

So I guess you are saying that Slate is "pissing in the wind" as well.
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