Login / Register
 
Universal Audio Apollo interface
New Reply
Subscribe
#1501
26th February 2012
Old 26th February 2012
  #1501
Lives for gear
 
climber's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2006
Location: new hampshire
Posts: 2,148
My Recordings/Credits

climber is offline
let's keep this thread on focus about the Apollo...
#1502
26th February 2012
Old 26th February 2012
  #1502
Gear maniac
 
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 264

Mazrak is offline
There's only so much that can said about a product that only exists on paper.
#1503
26th February 2012
Old 26th February 2012
  #1503
Lives for gear
 
Macaroni's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2003
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 747

Macaroni is offline
Quote:
There's only so much that can said about a product that only exists on paper.
Is there a prize for people saying really stupid ignorant things?
#1504
26th February 2012
Old 26th February 2012
  #1504
Gear maniac
 
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 264

Mazrak is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macaroni View Post
Is there a prize for people saying really stupid ignorant things?
shut up

this thing isn't available to customers yet and people keep complaining about the speculation, or direction conversation turns... it's an unreleased product that's created some excitement. people are going to talk. whine on. since it's nobody's hands, there's going to be opinions from every angle until it's released.
#1505
26th February 2012
Old 26th February 2012
  #1505
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 629

laddie.music2 is offline
as a sound card, and it's latency buffers for VSTI instruments, would be interesting.

Remember this is their first 'soundcard' stability of a soundcard is hard enough, let alone incorporating UAD plugins, / 64 cubase / protools support,

It's entering a very deep area that RME has been dealing with for 15 years.

I hope they nail it, but 'sound card' stability and latency without pops and clicks is many composers first priority,

We'll see what happens.

The only thing this has going for it essentially is the inbuilt UAD interface which requires a ton of money to populate with their plugins.

Time will tell, it's their first soundcard, I hope they nail it!, although i don't have my hopes up.
#1506
26th February 2012
Old 26th February 2012
  #1506
Lives for gear
 
Macaroni's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2003
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 747

Macaroni is offline
Quote:
shut up
Make me - by saying something remotely intelligent.

The unit exists and is in production. It's not merely on paper as you so idiotically stated, thus adding nothing to the discussion except your ignorance.

Prove that it only exists on paper or you shut up.
__________________
Ron...
#1507
27th February 2012
Old 27th February 2012
  #1507
Gear addict
 
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 334

T800 is offline
What is more worth it? To get this apollo with Pro Tools 10 LE or to get the Pro Tools HD Native with the Omni and just use UAD plug-ins with a Quad?

With the latter you get the benefits of HD, with the former you don't. This is a drag.

Which is a better bet?
#1508
27th February 2012
Old 27th February 2012
  #1508
Lives for gear
 
jimmyboy7's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2009
Location: Arizona
Posts: 897

jimmyboy7 is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by T800 View Post
What is more worth it? To get this apollo with Pro Tools 10 LE or to get the Pro Tools HD Native with the Omni and just use UAD plug-ins with a Quad?

With the latter you get the benefits of HD, with the former you don't. This is a drag.

Which is a better bet?
The latter
#1509
27th February 2012
Old 27th February 2012
  #1509
Gear nut
 
2busdriver's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2002
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 79

2busdriver is offline
Got a duo on order but only to see if the hilo ships beforehand. OMG I can play the vaporware game too! These manufacturers' - are they knuckleheads?
#1510
27th February 2012
Old 27th February 2012
  #1510
Church of UAD
 
Matt Hepworth's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2003
Location: USA
Posts: 2,132

Matt Hepworth is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by T800 View Post
What is more worth it? To get this apollo with Pro Tools 10 LE or to get the Pro Tools HD Native with the Omni and just use UAD plug-ins with a Quad?

With the latter you get the benefits of HD, with the former you don't. This is a drag.

Which is a better bet?
If you want to monitor (or record) through UAD plugins while tracking, then Apollo is the only option.

BTW, HD Native doesn't have the benefits of HD.
__________________
Reamping Services for Rock, Heavy Rock, and Metal | World-class Amps, Cabs, Mics, Pres, Converters, and Outboard | PM or email

Here's the 1073PreKey!
#1511
27th February 2012
Old 27th February 2012
  #1511
Gear nut
 
IAMCRISIS's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2011
Location: Bronx
Posts: 86

IAMCRISIS is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by T800 View Post
What is more worth it? To get this apollo with Pro Tools 10 LE or to get the Pro Tools HD Native with the Omni and just use UAD plug-ins with a Quad?

With the latter you get the benefits of HD, with the former you don't. This is a drag.

Which is a better bet?
Apollo - Duo $2,000 or Quad $2,500
Pro Tool 10 $700
Complete Production Toolkit - $2,000
UAD-2 Satellite Quad $1,500 or Quad Omni $5,000 (with library of UAD plugins minus 3)
Mac - $1500 to $5000 (mac Pro)
Cost - $7,700 to $15,200

or

Pro Tools HD with the Omni and one HDX card - $10,000
UAD-2 Satellite Quad - $1,500 or Quad Omni $5,000
Mac - $1500 to $5000
Cost - $13,000 to $20,000

If your going to be using UAD plugins then you wont really need the HDX cards dsp power unless your using another set of plugins (Waves, Sonnox, etc). And not for nothing, the native versions of those other plugins sound just as good as the HD versions (minus the dsp power) in my opinion. All the other features of Pro Tools HD you can get with the Complete Production Toolkit. Me personally, I feel you can get the same quality mixes and a lot more stuff with the first option for $8,000-$15,000 as you can get with the second option for $13,000-$20,000. Some people feel like if it's not mixed using Pro Tools HD as apposed to Pro Tools native, Logic Pro, etc... it doesn't sound good. The same way some people feel like if it isn't mixed using analog gear (some using strictly analog gear and going to tape) as appose to in the box it doesn't sound good. The Apollo and interfaces like it (dsp and Thunderbolt based interfaces) are the first step in eliminating having to use expensive PCIe cards. I know that's the last thing people who spent big money on Pro Tools HD systems want to hear but all it takes is one huge record to be recorded/mixed with the Apollo and the flood gates will open. The "big boy engineers" are already using UAD plugins so we already know how they sound... If the Apollo performs just as good and even makes using the plugins even better which I'm sure it would, then I'll be glad that I was part of the first group of engineers/musicians that took a gamble with the Apollo. Who ever buys it and doesn't like it like my self can always send it back and get something else...
#1512
27th February 2012
Old 27th February 2012
  #1512
Lives for gear
 
dbjp's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2008
Location: Japan
Posts: 2,290

dbjp is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by IAMCRISIS View Post
Apollo - Duo $2,000 or Quad $2,500
Pro Tool 10 $700
Complete Production Toolkit - $2,000
UAD-2 Satellite Quad $1,500 or Quad Omni $5,000 (with library of UAD plugins minus 3)
Mac - $1500 to $5000 (mac Pro)
Cost - $7,700 to $15,200

or

Pro Tools HD with the Omni and one HDX card - $10,000
UAD-2 Satellite Quad - $1,500 or Quad Omni $5,000
Mac - $1500 to $5000
Cost - $13,000 to $20,000

If your going to be using UAD plugins then you wont really need the HDX cards dsp power unless your using another set of plugins (Waves, Sonnox, etc). And not for nothing, the native versions of those other plugins sound just as good as the HD versions (minus the dsp power) in my opinion. All the other features of Pro Tools HD you can get with the Complete Production Toolkit. Me personally, I feel you can get the same quality mixes and a lot more stuff with the first option for $8,000-$15,000 as you can get with the second option for $13,000-$20,000. Some people feel like if it's not mixed using Pro Tools HD as apposed to Pro Tools native, Logic Pro, etc... it doesn't sound good. The same way some people feel like if it isn't mixed using analog gear (some using strictly analog gear and going to tape) as appose to in the box it doesn't sound good. The Apollo and interfaces like it (dsp and Thunderbolt based interfaces) are the first step in eliminating having to use expensive PCIe cards. I know that's the last thing people who spent big money on Pro Tools HD systems want to hear but all it takes is one huge record to be recorded/mixed with the Apollo and the flood gates will open. The "big boy engineers" are already using UAD plugins so we already know how they sound... If the Apollo performs just as good and even makes using the plugins even better which I'm sure it would, then I'll be glad that I was part of the first group of engineers/musicians that took a gamble with the Apollo. Who ever buys it and doesn't like it like my self can always send it back and get something else...
HD TDM and HDX give you the advantage of a fully integrated low latency, delay compensated recording environment. That's a huge deal for some of us.

Having to use two different softwares for routing, cue mix, plugins, etc when recording isn't ideal, though for the price difference with non-hd solutions like the Apollo, it might be worth it to some.
But dismissing the advantages of PTHD is a little short sighted in my opinion.
#1513
27th February 2012
Old 27th February 2012
  #1513
Gear nut
 
IAMCRISIS's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2011
Location: Bronx
Posts: 86

IAMCRISIS is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbjp View Post
HD TDM and HDX give you the advantage of a fully integrated low latency, delay compensated recording environment. That's a huge deal for some of us.

Having to use two different softwares for routing, cue mix, plugins, etc when recording isn't ideal, though for the price difference with non-hd solutions like the Apollo, it might be worth it to some.
But dismissing the advantages of PTHD is a little short sighted in my opinion.
Sorry if I gave the wrong impression. I wasn't trying to dismiss the quality or what you can do with Pro Tools HD... It's definitely a great audio rig that is proven. Was just pointing out the big difference in cost and the fact that with a good set of ears and skills you can accomplish the same thing and get much more at a cheaper price of a Pro Tools HD system. With the option of recording almost latency free using plugins with the Apollo and automatic delay compensation in Pro Tools 10 which may not be completely the same as the HD version but it's just as effective especially with Complete Production Toolkit. With a fully blown Mac and the Apollo connected via Thunderbolt using UAD plugins, your computer is going to run flawlessly while the built in UAD Satellite takes the load off of it leaving a lot of processing power for other plugins if needed... And if you have a extra UAD Satellite connected, it'll just make it even better.

If I could afford getting a HD system and a UAD satellite with some plugins then I would do it but like I said, I feel I can accomplish the same thing with either or so I went with the Apollo Quad & Satellite Quad Omni. Plus the way Avid has been just switching technology and leaving older technology useless or on the verge of being useless, I see them releasing an HD Interface that doesn't need a HD card soon. It'll be a Thunderbolt interface with the HDX card built inside of it the way the Apollo has a Satellite Duo/Quad built in it. It'll probably be after they release Pro Tools 11.

Mac Pro's are on the endangered species list that's why Apple and Intel are pushing thunderbolt which is equivalent to a PCIe slot. Macbook Pro's, iMac's and Mac Mini's are getting stronger and will be stronger then Mac Pro's very soon. If Apple stops making Mac Pro's, why would Avid continue to make PCIe cards (HDX cards)? Sooner then later HDX cards will be almost obsolete like the older HD cards are now. PC's will even have Thunderbolt technology. Eventually Avid will have to come up with a solution, which integrating their HDX card inside of an interface and using Thunderbolt to connect it to your computer would be smart. Buying an HDX card then Avid releasing an HD/Thunderbolt interface next year (which they probably will ) is another reason I went with the Apollo & Satellite. I could be wrong but with UA, Apogee and a couple of other companies releasing/announcing thunderbolt interfaces it's only a matter of time Avid creates/releases one themselves. I might be thinking to far in to the future but I have a feeling I'm right. And if I am, it'll just make the investment I just made even smarter.
#1514
27th February 2012
Old 27th February 2012
  #1514
Lives for gear
 
DR Music's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2011
Location: Chicago Subs, IL
Posts: 3,041

DR Music is offline
FYI
You can buy HD10 for $899 and save having to buy the complete "tool" kit for PT10! That'll save you $2000. When you get your Hd or HDX card you won't have to worry about HD software!, waa laa!!!
Your Welcome!
__________________
Gear Used: Mac Pro 5,1, Apollo/BlackLionAudio Conversion, API Mic Pres', Dangerous Music Summing and Monitoring, PT9, UAD-2, Adam A77x, GIK Acoustics, and more...........
MediaMix
#1515
27th February 2012
Old 27th February 2012
  #1515
MediaMix
Guest
 
Posts: n/a

Quote:
Originally Posted by DR Music View Post
FYI
You can buy HD10 for $899 and save having to buy the complete "tool" kit for PT10! That'll save you $2000. When you get your Hd or HDX card you won't have to worry about HD software!, waa laa!!!
Your Welcome!
Please post a link to where we can get PT10HD that will be supported, registered, and allow for upgrades in our Avid accounts for $899.
#1516
27th February 2012
Old 27th February 2012
  #1516
Gear addict
 
isma's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 387

isma is offline
You guys gave me a headake with protools, there are many protools thread, or just create a new one "Protools with or without Apollo?" or whatever...
Let talk about Apollo, UAD plugs, as many of us don't give a fu** about protools...

Cheers
#1517
27th February 2012
Old 27th February 2012
  #1517
Lives for gear
 
DR Music's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2011
Location: Chicago Subs, IL
Posts: 3,041

DR Music is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by MediaMix View Post
Please post a link to where we can get PT10HD that will be supported, registered, and allow for upgrades in our Avid accounts for $899.
eBay my friend. I'm using HD9 without a glitch!!! It's a licence! For example, You can buy HD Native or a HD card and use a FW Interface!! I found this out because I installed HD9 on my laptop a couple years ago and worked great with a Saffire 56 we used to record live! Same thing with HD10! After needing to grab another PT for the laptop one for me one for home (ilok authorizations, does not make sense to have it on the same one) I found for PThD on eBay with an ilok for $499. PT10HD is $899. I wouldn't hesitate one bit! Ofcourse I get all updates. Don't know about support, I don't need it! Haven't needed it since 06.
MediaMix
#1518
27th February 2012
Old 27th February 2012
  #1518
MediaMix
Guest
 
Posts: n/a

Quote:
Originally Posted by DR Music View Post
eBay my friend. I'm using HD9 without a glitch!!! It's a licence! For example, You can buy HD Native or a HD card and use a FW Interface!! I found this out because I installed HD9 on my laptop a couple years ago and worked great with a Saffire 56 we used to record live! Same thing with HD10! After needing to grab another PT for the laptop one for me one for home (ilok authorizations, does not make sense to have it on the same one) I found for PThD on eBay with an ilok for $499. PT10HD is $899. I wouldn't hesitate one bit! Ofcourse I get all updates. Don't know about support, I don't need it! Haven't needed it since 06.
Oh. I've done that in the past but when a major PAID upgrade comes you will not be able to get an upgrade price. You have to wait and buy a full version off of ebay again. You cannot register it or get support. But it works for the meantime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by isma View Post
You guys gave me a headake with protools, there are many protools thread, or just create a new one "Protools with or without Apollo?" or whatever...
Let talk about Apollo, UAD plugs, as many of us don't give a fu** about protools...

Cheers
Apollo does not come with DAW software so all DAW software is relevant. If you have a complex against Pro Tools. Sorry. What more can be said about Apollo until they start shipping. No one has even touched one yet except UA engineers and they are not chiming in.
#1519
27th February 2012
Old 27th February 2012
  #1519
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Feb 2004
Location: Chicago
Posts: 518

spiral is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by DIGI ENT View Post
UA ran into produ tion delays. New ETA for all Apollos is early/mid April!!! WTF???
Just got a (very good) quote from Full Compass. They said they should arrive late March.
__________________
Good trades @ HC: reesecameron, kaeth, Brisco, Metallkasten, SkyhighRocks, sublimeride, lith_power
Good trades @ GS: James 'LA' Lugo, jeronimo, climber, tnjazz, Sonic Skip, kelldammit
Good trades @ TGP: williamh, MrBoZiffer, EvilPhish
#1520
27th February 2012
Old 27th February 2012
  #1520
Lives for gear
 
DR Music's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2011
Location: Chicago Subs, IL
Posts: 3,041

DR Music is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by MediaMix View Post
Oh. I've done that in the past but when a major PAID upgrade comes you will not be able to get an upgrade price. You have to wait and buy a full version off of ebay again. You cannot register it or get support. But it works for the meantime.
Not TRUE!! At all! I qualify for a 10 upgrade, all day long!!
#1521
27th February 2012
Old 27th February 2012
  #1521
Gear addict
 
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 334

T800 is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by isma View Post
With the apollo you can use UAD plugs in your home studio or for live performances (wich is not the same as the Totalmix fx plugs), with no latency.
Like a proper FX rack.
You can't do this with a UAD satellite + UFX.
The UAD apollo UAD thunderbolt will only be at the low latency when tracking normally but if plug-ins are added to live tracking then obviously latency will increase. Which I still see to be of no advantage. Then nothing can delay compensate like a played back track can because its in real time. I think I'll stick to the pro tools HD plan. Because I learned from a dealer of both that the HD interfaces will still be faster than thunderbolt. But that thunderbolt will be a close second.
#1522
27th February 2012
Old 27th February 2012
  #1522
Lives for gear
 
superwack's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2007
Location: West Coast
Posts: 2,174

superwack is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazrak View Post
shut up

this thing isn't available to customers yet and people keep complaining about the speculation, or direction conversation turns... it's an unreleased product that's created some excitement. people are going to talk. whine on. since it's nobody's hands, there's going to be opinions from every angle until it's released.
+1... the REALLY important thing that I think you all are overlooking is THUNDERBOLT - now that is basically vaporware as it is "coming Summer of 2012" and at a price that seems TBD... what if that turns out to be another $1k?

We can speculate (as everything on this thread is ) but honestly, we really know how well TB will work in general for audio, how UA's drivers will be (or when they will actually be available regardless of what they say there are always delays in this sort of thing... remember how the UAD satellites still don't work with PC), what the actual latency is, etc. The TB specs are impressive but so are lots of other formats that never delivered on promised speeds. Also remember that the really good TB specs are for the FIBRE version ($$$) not the copper one.

I'm glad you are enthusiastic but don't get ahead of yourself (there is always a cost to being an early adopter)
__________________
-
"You only have a certain amount of headroom with Pro Tools... if you start pushing it a little bit too hard it's starts squawking like a chicken, if you go too low, it starts squawkin', you have to work within a certain realm otherwise you get zapped either way!" - Tad Donley (2006)
-
#1523
27th February 2012
Old 27th February 2012
  #1523
Gear addict
 
isma's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 387

isma is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by T800 View Post
The UAD apollo UAD thunderbolt will only be at the low latency when tracking normally but if plug-ins are added to live tracking then obviously latency will increase. Which I still see to be of no advantage. Then nothing can delay compensate like a played back track can because its in real time. I think I'll stick to the pro tools HD plan. Because I learned from a dealer of both that the HD interfaces will still be faster than thunderbolt. But that thunderbolt will be a close second.

No latency with plugins added to live tracking with the apollo, it's true, you missed the point!!
(No latency is actually 2m.s max according UA website)
The no latency thing WITH UAD plugs is THE reason i want to buy it!
Add a studer on my drum machine, a space echo on a guitar, an LA2A on a voice for a live show, comon!!!
Have you seen the video with Fab????
The plugs can act before the DAW or in standalone, without a computer.
Firewire will be enough to start with, no latency with firewire already, so thunderbolt is a bonus.
HD interfaces faster than thunderbolt? that doesn't mean anything, thunderbolt is PCIe... And even if there is something faster, who cares, no latency is no latency, you won't hear any difference between 2ms or 1ms!
#1524
27th February 2012
Old 27th February 2012
  #1524
Gear maniac
 
ol drippy's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2008
Location: SLC, UT
Posts: 245

ol drippy is online now
Man it is so hard to sort through this thread.

This may have been answered but does anyone know if you can just monitor through their console screen without printing the effects? I'd like to have the option to do one or the other at times.
#1525
27th February 2012
Old 27th February 2012
  #1525
Gear nut
 
adogg4629's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2008
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 136

Send a message via AIM to adogg4629 Send a message via Skype™ to adogg4629
adogg4629 is offline
hmmm...Good for UAD for making a product some people want to buy. Good luck to all the early adopters. Sigh to the length of this thread (which I am ironically adding to). Groan to the irrational exuberance of some to potential vaporware.

YAY!!! to the additional features of the Apollo. Rumers and sources have it that it will automatically detect and compensate for harmonic fluctuations in the power supply (look for the potential to use software to alter the frequency of the power to match harmonic frequencies in your session-even matching keys!!!)

It will also interface remotely with Keurig units to help bring energy to the recording and mixing process (www.keurig.com)
#1526
27th February 2012
Old 27th February 2012
  #1526
Gear nut
 
IAMCRISIS's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2011
Location: Bronx
Posts: 86

IAMCRISIS is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by isma View Post

No latency with plugins added to live tracking with the apollo, it's true, you missed the point!!
(No latency is actually 2m.s max according UA website)
The no latency thing WITH UAD plugs is THE reason i want to buy it!
Add a studer on my drum machine, a space echo on a guitar, an LA2A on a voice for a live show, comon!!!
Have you seen the video with Fab????
The plugs can act before the DAW or in standalone, without a computer.
Firewire will be enough to start with, no latency with firewire already, so thunderbolt is a bonus.
HD interfaces faster than thunderbolt? that doesn't mean anything, thunderbolt is PCIe... And even if there is something faster, who cares, no latency is no latency, you won't hear any difference between 2ms or 1ms!

I agree...People act like 1 ms difference in latency from the Apollo and an HD interface will be noticeable. As long as the A/D conversion quality is top notch like they claim it to be, that's all that counts. I'm like a mad scientist in the studio so the fact that you can use UAD plugins to track/monitor with UNNOTICEABLE latency besides mixing with them is also one of the many reasons I went the Apollo route. Lots of experiments will be conducted. I have confidence in my skills that I will get that "HD" sound using the Apollo and UAD plugins!
#1527
27th February 2012
Old 27th February 2012
  #1527
Lives for gear
 
smoovemode's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,369

smoovemode is offline
Has anyone got one yet? From What one sales place told me they were due to get one on the 22nd. I have not heard back from them though.
#1528
27th February 2012
Old 27th February 2012
  #1528
Gear Head
 
Joined: Feb 2012
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 33

Nathanz is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by ol drippy View Post
Man it is so hard to sort through this thread.

This may have been answered but does anyone know if you can just monitor through their console screen without printing the effects? I'd like to have the option to do one or the other at times.
Yes you can.
Attached Thumbnails
Universal Audio Apollo interface-console-snaphot.jpg  
#1529
27th February 2012
Old 27th February 2012
  #1529
Gear maniac
 
ol drippy's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2008
Location: SLC, UT
Posts: 245

ol drippy is online now
Awesome, thanks for the info!
#1530
27th February 2012
Old 27th February 2012
  #1530
Lives for gear
 
superwack's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2007
Location: West Coast
Posts: 2,174

superwack is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by smoovemode View Post
Has anyone got one yet? From What one sales place told me they were due to get one on the 22nd. I have not heard back from them though.
They don't ship until MARCH... In fact, I remember reading March 22nd so it's very possible that is what the dealer meant

Speculate on!
New Reply Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook  Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter  Submit Thread to LinkedIn LinkedIn  Submit Thread to Google+ Google+ 
 
Topic:
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
Chieftain Jake / Low End Theory
14

Forum Jump

SEO by vBSEO ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.